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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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OK, I have had a chat with BetaHound earlier today. All kinds of stuff mixed (PtWDG, ISDG, my Misfits game), so I will just put a brief summary of what I learnt:
1) Voxes currently have 15 immos. 7 more warriors will be upgraded within 2 turns. 15 more warriors shall be built within the next 5 turns - all of them to be upgraded to immos (they have a smart road network setup allowing them to build warriors in all their cities but one, upgrading them to immos with just a little delay in that last city that is barracked - as the only one - connected to iron). That is 37 immortals altogether within 7 turns from now.  
2) They have funds almost enough for all the upgrades. It may be they will need something like 100-200 gold eventually - exact figure depends upon what exactly triggering GA does to their economy.
3) GS capital is just 5 tiles from the border. +6 food pump. It is likely Voxes will not attack it head on, but pass it by, searching for the shield cities and the iron source (they do not know where GS' iron is yet).
4) a Vox galley is following the east coast of Estonia, another GoW galley with 2 horsemen is following the west coast, both looking for the GS source of iron.
5) Voxes are determined to eliminate GS completely.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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I believe that the way we formulate a transaction involving us providing money and Voxes providing their world map is not important. What matters is that we are willing to provide funds to help them with the war against GS and they are willing to provide us with their world map.
I'd suggest something like: you give us your world map, we provide you with 100 gold and 100 more gold (figures not relevant - I haven't been thinking too much about them; consider them just placeholders) as a loan. Once your war is over, you either provide us with your world map again (this time covering the whole of your landmass) or repay the loan.
As for the next target - that team has already been picked up, just not by us... RPers. AFAIK, the plans of the Vox+GoW alliance are to join ND and stomp upon RPers... which we will happily watch. The next part of the plans, though, which is them stomping upon us, still looks somewhat suboptimal to me - we shall probably work on that a bit... 
I agree that if GS is eliminated, the next war will happen on Bob... it is natural... the winner(s) can gain much there by securing the whole (half of) continent... while if Bobians unite and fight against us, their gains would be debatable (due to corruption to distance), even if they succeed.
It will only be after one of the Bobian teams leave the game that we will become a likely target. I do not say that we WILL NOT be attacked earlier, but it is not likely and we should focus on building a strong economy that will be able to respond quickly in case a threat emerges, instead of overbuilding on military... which is what RPers have a problem with now - they have got the strongest army ATM, but due to oversizing it, they're falling behind research-wise, thus inevitably aiming for ending up with an army composed of obsolete units, sooner or later (plus, gradually becoming at mercy of other civs as far as getting technologies goes).
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Guys, you are forgetting a very important thing. Our money are meant to help Voxes win the war against GS. 200 gold is 5 more immortal upgrades. If Voxes become strapped for gold and eventually lose the war, we lose our initial 150 gold loan (and any others) as well.
These two deals are being tied together for one reason only: to make them look at least remotely acceptable for GS, if it ever becomes a public knowledge we made the deal. But originally - Voxes told us they were ready to give us their world map as a gesture of good will and friendship. And we were ready to arrange another loan for them (at least I hope we were), because we had reasons to (mostly to help them do harm to our economic rival, GS). If we tie these two things together, it shall not imply conditions are to be changed...
We shall provide Voxes with the gold once they ask for it, simply because they need it, we do not need it (at least for this moment and the next 15+ turns), and we can afford it. Buying effectively two world maps at 100g each (Voxian & Stormian - reread my initial proposal, please) would be a bargain... and 200 gold, when it really comes to the moment we'd have use for the gold, will be less than 3 turns of 100% taxes for us... that's very cheap.
Another thing to keep in mind: even if Voxes win the war, they will need our help to become a "useful" ally. They will be behind in research, they will be lacking proper infrastructure etc. Much like Britain after WW2... Britain won the war (was among winners), yet its economy (and more importantly the treasury) was terribly damaged. Unless we will be happy to let them struggle far behind, being of no use to us, we should be aware of that they will need even more help when the war is over... cheap or free techs, loan waivers etc.
Let's be generous - we can afford it. It's generosity that will gain us loyal allies, not pinpointed "1 for 1" deals... just the fact that Voxes played a major role in GS wasting 300 shields on The Great Lighthouse is worth a lot, IMHO. Otherwise, one of the fine medieval wonders would have been effectively already taken.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
Plus, and perhaps more importantly - we don't want to make it look like we are a money machine here. That we have given that much money to one civ may increase the cash demands from the other civs (I doubt Vox is being super secret about information on us). Plus we will need money to make the next series of tech trades. |
Well, everybody knows by know we are a money machine, since we are one of the fastest researchers. Only money machines keep their research at 100% - others save cash and BUY techs, as they are unable to research cost effectively on their own (unless going for 40 turn research cycles).
Fortunately enough, once we get Engineering and Feudalism, we will be able to research just about anything we decide to - the tech tree splits into more branches instead of merging some of them. Means that if someone asks for too much money for a specific tech we might want, we will simply not buy it and research it on our own instead - it will take us less time that it will take the other party to research "our tech" we will naturally not trade either...
As for the deal... what I originally proposed was: let's provide 200 gold to Voxes in exchange for their current world map as soon as they ask for the gold (=as soon as they need it). Once their war with GS is over (or almost over, in case they'd be going to lose it), they should have two options: pay us 100 gold back or give us their world map again. This effectively means buying their current world map for 100 gold + a loan of 100 more gold with an option to repay this loan with the world map of Gathering Storm (more or less).
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Sharpe
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Ontario
May 1999
time: 00:26
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No, I still say no more than 80-120 gold when they ask with the promise of possibly more later when we have the money - and no "we don't really need the money" responses from some of you because WE DO need the money (we are talking about giving them nearly half of our current money for practically nothing in return right now?!) :
Knight upgrades 240 gold (3*80) when we get Chivalry
Sword upgrades 160 gold (4*40)
plus upgrades to Med Inf from swords
Total of military upgrades 400 gold plus Med Inf upgrades
Plus any gold rushes that we want or need - Kloreep has mentioned 360 gold for a courthouse in Karina - a vital precursor to accelerating the completion of the FP IIRC.
Plus any gold we have to trade for techs
Plus gold to allow us to lower the tax rate and increase the science rate
Plus gold to cover any even lower tax rate if we have to have a luxury rate (quite possible with the poprushes for the following 20 turns)
Plus I think we need to increase our military even further before we go to anarchy as that is a possible time to attack us - of course that will result in additional military costs per turn when we reach republic.
PLUS Vox has never even made an attempt to start paying back the first loan that we made ...
Sure, buy the world map and don't wait for the end of the war as that might be sometime off...
Last edited by Sharpe on 17-04-2003 at 07:00
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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I have hastily responded in the morning before leaving my machine... but I feel this is extremely important, so I will add more comments now.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
No, I still say no more than 80-120 gold when they ask with the promise of possibly more later when we have the money - and no "we don't really need the money" responses from some of you because WE DO need the money (we are talking about giving them nearly half of our current money for practically nothing in return right now?!) : |
I have already mentioned 200 gold we are talking about is not needed at this moment and in the near future - at least not until we switch to Republic, which is at least 15 turns away. The quicker Voxes are able to crush GS, the better for us, since the less aid they will need post-war to catch up economy- and research-wise again (becoming a truly "useful" ally for us).
I do not think we understand "practically nothing" the same way. Voxes already helped us tremendously by forcing GS to scrap their wonder build in Hurricane (if they did not, one of the fine early medieval wonders would have already been out of our reach). They are helping us big time by forcing GS to use their resources on war, allowing us to get ahead of GS by having extra time to build up our infrastructure. And they are the only ones capable of possibly totally eliminating this greatest economic rival of ours. Voxes seriously slowing down or even eliminating GS is not "practically nothing".
quote:
Knight upgrades 240 gold (3*80) when we get Chivalry
Sword upgrades 160 gold (4*40)
plus upgrades to Med Inf from swords
Total of military upgrades 400 gold plus Med Inf upgrades. |
Chivalry will be hardly available earlier than in 14-15 turns. And I am less than convinced we shall upgrade our swords to Medieval Infantry at the earliest possible moment. Having them stationed in our barracked cities, ready to be upgraded if there is a real need to should be just fine.
quote:
Plus any gold rushes that we want or need - Kloreep has mentioned 360 gold for a courthouse in Karina - a vital precursor to accelerating the completion of the FP IIRC. |
Karina may do with ~250 gold for the courthouse rush only. ATM, Karina is at 20 shields, getting 10 more this turn from the chop. In 5 turns, Karina grows to pop 4 and can 2-poprush the Temple. Then, it would be able to start building a Courthouse - would accumulate at least 7 shields prior to the revolution. Add 10 more shields from a possible chop and there would be just a little bit over 60 shields to go - 60+*4=~250 gold.
quote:
Plus any gold we have to trade for techs |
What techs do you mean? Keep in mind we are talking about the next 20-30 turns. I am quite sure we will be able to get Feudalism+Chivalry for Theology+Education (from whatever source). Engineering shall come from Voxes (I expect them to be quite generous, considering they effectively screwed our own deal on Engineering with RPers... and even if they ask for gold, we may simply scrap part of the loan instead of paying more gold). I do not believe Invention will become available within the next 30 turns. What techs are we going to buy with gold then?
quote:
Plus gold to allow us to lower the tax rate and increase the science rate |
Increase what? We are at 100% research... if you mean we will have to knock down our research slider a bit after switching to Republic, to be able to pay for all our city improvements and units, then it is necessary to mention the EXTRA gold flowing into our treasury because of lower corruption and extra commerce.
quote:
Plus gold to cover any even lower tax rate if we have to have a luxury rate (quite possible with the poprushes for the following 20 turns) |
Again, this is not a problem. The whole poprushing plan assumes (and quite correctly), we will need to spend NO money on luxury slider, as all the poprushed cities are supposed to remain at pop levels not troubled by happiness problems (keeping the pop level low enough by building workers and settlers). One rushed pop point is effectively countered by the rushed temple, the other (and keep in mind we will have only some cities using a 2-pop rush) may be easily solved using an entertainer... which effectively slows the growth even further, making unhappiness no problem at all.
quote:
Plus I think we need to increase our military even further before we go to anarchy as that is a possible time to attack us - of course that will result in additional military costs per turn when we reach republic. |
Just that nobody knows when we are going to go into anarchy... before anyone can get to us, we will be out of it anyway. And our current forces are strong enough to hold an invasion for the few turns we'd need to get out of the anarchy. Our core is well defended and that's what matters most. I would not support building more troops at this moment (beyond our current plans). Considering the size of an invasion army that may theoretically land, we are having and planning to have an adequate military.
quote:
PLUS Vox has never even made an attempt to start paying back the first loan that we made ... |
 Sure you realize that if we are talking about providing Voxes with another loan, it makes little sense to expect them to start repaying the first loan in the meantime, right?
These are all kinds of reasons that seem to discourage us from providing Voxes with money (with 200 gold, to be precise)... but what about trying to find a way that would actually ALLOW us to provide them with another loan? Steve, do you agree with me and others that ensuring GS leave the game and Voxes become our allies is EXTREMELY important and worth significant effort/investment/bet/whatever?
Every time 200 gold looks like a lot of money we cannot afford to part with, remember that it is less than 4 turns of our current tax income. By the time we will actually need the money (i.e. after switching to Republic), it will quite likely be less than 3 turns. That's negligible compared to potential gains.
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08-04-2003 11:07
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