29-04-2003 11:18									#121
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This is the official, signed trade agreement between us and Vox Controli (just found that in my PMbox):

quote: vondrack and Lego - Vox agrees to these terms and thanks Legoland for its support and friendship. ......Beta. quote: Lego-Vox trade treaty of 630BC 1. Vox agrees to gift Engineering to Lego on the turn it becomes available for Vox. Lego agrees on a 20 turns "no-whoring" clause. 2. Lego agrees to gift Theology to Vox upon request, urging Vox not to request it until they need it for Education, in order to make it difficult for any other team trying to research it on their own. Vox agrees not to build the Sistine Chapel, and to not trade Theology to any team unless that team also agrees not to build the Sistine Chapel as part of the trade. 3. Lego agrees to pay 120 gold to Vox on turn 98 (Vox receives it on turn 99). Vox gifts Lego their WM on turn 99, their WM again when the war with GS is over and war reports and screenshots at least every 3 turns. 4. Lego grants Vox a loan of 120 gold on turn 102 (Vox receives on turn 103). Vox starts repaying it within 20 turns after turn 103, in an amount of 6 gpt, for 20 turns. 5. Both parties agree to keep this trade agreement top secret, never revealing any details to a third party. Signed: vondrack, the President of Legoland Signed: BetaHound, Voice of Foreign Affairs for Vox Controli

	02-05-2003 19:24									#122
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There is so much mis-information, concerning the war, that it's very hard to determine what is really happening. Does any one have any inside information? Is the Vox plan going smoothly or has there been some miscalculations? Any major setbacks?

I must know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	02-05-2003 19:56									#123
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Judging from the posts in the public forum, I think things are looking pretty grim for Voxes - GS apparently had a lot of luck, generating one great leader. And I am pretty sure they used it to build Sun Tzu's...

No info directly from Vox though...

	03-05-2003 02:56									#124
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Hopefully they'll send their first batch of screenshots and a report soon?

	03-05-2003 10:49									#125
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I read the public forum and Vox definitely did not have the start we had hoped for. The war has just begun; hopefully things will change.

	29-05-2003 01:41									#126
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In regards to the recent gift of Feu. from Vox, Kloreep and I were discussing what sort of "relief" we could offer them on part of their loan as a thanks. The figure we were tossing around was somewhere in the 75-100 GP range, out of the total loan of 250.

Also, Tiberius, IIRC you are still Vox ambassador; could you send them a nice thank you note

	29-05-2003 04:01									#127
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I wonder if it is time to remind Vox that the 200 gold for Monotheism was part payment and part loan during the Bob crisis.

For Feudalism, I would waive the loan portion of the Monotheism deal (it was supposed to be 150 loan, 50 payment but we have never really expected it to be paid back, but we shouldn't tell Vox that) plus 50 to 75 gold of the GS war loan preferably the lower amount explaining that we did have 2 other possible deals for Feudalism ready. But also thanking them for it...

	29-05-2003 08:00									#128
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I don't think we should waive anything from the war loan. The highest return gift I'd agree to give is a complete waive of the Mono-deal loan (150 gold). I think that's about 40% of the beaker cost of Feudalism, right?

	29-05-2003 09:59									#129
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Agreed on waiving the 150g from the Mono deal. Feu cost is, IIRC, 768 beakers, so that sounds both as a good bargain and a fair balance for what they gave us (let's keep in mind that they must have gotten it fairly cheap from GoW as part of the anti-GS alliance). We SHOULD, however, thank them nicely and explain that we had two buying options lined up and accepting their "gift" was merely a matter of improving our bargaining position than getting the tech "cheap".

And hey... do I read it correct? Is Steve the most generous one out of us?

	30-05-2003 03:44									#130
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quote: And hey... do I read it correct? Is Steve the most generous one out of us?

Just to keep my reputation intact here , I should explain that waiving the 150 loan from the Monotheism deal was my initial thinking as well.

But I wondered whether Vox would even remember that loan or not, so I thought I would suggest a token reduction in the other loan in case they grew upset at us for bringing up a long-forgotten loan...

Either that or I am growing soft in my old age ...

	30-05-2003 03:56									#131
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Growing soft, Steve, growing soft...

Loans shall never be "long-forgotten"... I never feel uneasy to remind someone of his debt - that's not bad manners... him forgetting of the loan would be.

Perhaps our disputes over the extent of loans before were caused by the fact that you expected them to be never paid back?

See, I may be a bit more open-handed, but I do expect those loans be paid back... even if not with cash and even if after quite some time.

	30-05-2003 04:09									#132
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quote: Perhaps our disputes over the extent of loans before were caused by the fact that you expected them to be never paid back?

Actually, that was a significant part of my thinking - looks as though I should have brought it up then as that might have resulted in less dispute during that unfortunately venom-filled discussion as I likely would have been reassured by you regarding that.

As for long-forgotten, I wasn't thinking about us - but Vox instead - seems like many of the other civs have short memories when it comes to agreements (especially RP and defensive pacts ) so I would be pleasantly surprised if Vox differs on this.

	30-05-2003 10:57									#133
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I also agree on waiving the 150g from the Mono deal in exchange for Feudalism.

Now, could somebody please help in writing a nice "thank you" note that would also contain the loan waiving?

Please?! I'm not very good in writing stuff like this (I'm generally not good in writing ). I could eventually assemble a senseless mumbling, only I was hoping that someone with talent would release from this painful operation

Thank you

	30-05-2003 12:26									#134
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I have - responding to our Misfits PBEM game save - unofficially thanked BetaHound for Feudalism and "just between friends" asked him if 150g loan waiver would be fine with them.

Just got a very short email from a friend of him, informing me BetaHound was cut from internet until about Saturday. We'll see what Beta responds with. If they are fine with that (and I believe the WILL be fine with that), we shall send an official note.

	30-05-2003 21:51									#135
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Looks like our relations with Vox are getting better all the time, we've done well.

	31-05-2003 00:17									#136
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IMHO in our official response we should tell to Vox that we already had a deal on Feudalism + Chivalry but we accepted Feud and will pay for it as a sign of good will. I think they should know that we will pay twice for Feud (once with money and once with a tech). This way they will find the 150 loan waiving a very good deal (otherwise they could think that we ain't throwing too much on the table).

	05-06-2003 15:20									#137
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack I have - responding to our Misfits PBEM game save - unofficially thanked BetaHound for Feudalism and "just between friends" asked him if 150g loan waiver would be fine with them.

Just received this from BetaHound:

quote: Hello vondrack of Lego. Forgiving the initial loan of 150 gold in exchange for feudalsim is acceptable to Vox. Thank-you. We will talk to you shortly regarding events on Estonia. Regards - Beta.

I believe all we need to do now is to write an official message to Voxes, confirming the waiver of 150 gold (we do not need to mention Feudalism at all, I think).

On another note, the news about Voxes losing their only iron is quite disturbing... I just hope we will soon hear some better news...

	05-06-2003 15:45									#138
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack On another note, the news about Voxes losing their only iron is quite disturbing... I just hope we will soon hear some better news...

Agreed. I'm not really hoping anymore that Vox will eventually win this war, although who knows?

Ironically (but fortunately), for GS, winning this war is almost as bad as losing it, because Bob will see them from now on as the biggest threat. I can see a global alliance against GS, should they get closer to eliminate Vox.

	05-06-2003 20:14									#139
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As you say, Tiberius, GS seems to have a lose-lose situation on their hands. Of course, they aren't helping their situation any with their rather undiplomatic postings in the main thread. In fact, they've even given RP a justified reason to intervene in the war, which they were going to do anyway

	05-06-2003 20:41									#140
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Agreed with both of you... GS is getting into a total isolation. Let's enjoy watching it from afar.

	06-06-2003 02:19									#141
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Dejon seems to have basically challenged us to comment. I'm not going to, but I wonder if we should?

ND seems to have taken the right approach: state that what other teams do with their iron isn't our business.

	06-06-2003 03:07									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Dejon seems to have basically challenged us to comment. I'm not going to, but I wonder if we should?

No!

Let's stay out of this mess, please... that thread is actually a wonderful example of what we shall stay out of at all costs. Can you see how GS antagonized RPers (and everybody else, for that matter) there? From now on, they will most likely be sworn enemies.

We can gain nothing by getting involved... let's just listen and learn - about how foolishly GS approaches tech trading, for example...

I suggest we do not comment at all. And if, then just a general comment about that we are separated by sea, thus actually unable to get involved in the world iron market.

It is not threads like this that will gain us friends and allies. It is our trades and team-to-team diplomacy that will.

	06-06-2003 03:22									#143
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I would agree with not getting involved in that particular discussion. However, as several people in the thread have tried to drive the discussion towards what sort of threat we pose, I think now is a good time to establish some good diplomatic recontacting privately. Ambassadors, I would ask each of you to write up a short message of friendship and kindness to send to your respective civs (minus GS). Something along the lines of "recent comments have implied that we have isolationist tendancies or pose a threat to others, but we are here as ready and willing trading partners, etc." Post drafts here relatively soon so we can agree on wording and send them off officially.

	06-06-2003 06:41									#144
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I personally think we shouldn't send an identical letter to every one and I don't think we need to send vox a letter to tell them we are not isolationist they know that already a letter of friendship might be nice though.

	06-06-2003 07:02									#145
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Yes, I didn't mean identical letters. I just meant each amb. should write a letter in their own words, as it were

	06-06-2003 07:09									#146
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The loss of the Vox's iron is troubling for them - but more disturbing for us is the possibility of GS finding out about our "donations" to Vox.

We had better work on a story in case they confront us about it perhaps.

That being said we should also face the fact that unless several other nations intervene, Vox will certainly fall to GS. Given what is happening, especially in that GS discussion thread, I suspect that while GS's long term relations are being damaged, it is also less likely that the other civs will intervene now.

If that is the case, we should try to get as many Voxans as we can onto our team and definitely hope to avoid any of them joining GS.

Besides, with the declining of our membership and several more of our members possibly going away for long stretches during the summer, it looks as though we will need a new infusion of members...

As for GS, we should become a little friendlier with GS - they might be a useful ally especially against the Bobian civs - though . First of all, we should try to get that no Sistine for Theology trade done as it has been almost a week since we proposed it.

	06-06-2003 16:35									#147
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Well I chated with vox last night they said the iron was taken by GS building 2 cities near it. I'll put up the log.

quote: [21:10] (Betahound) howdy! [21:10] (Nimitz) hey [21:11] (Nimitz) to bad about the iron [21:11] (Betahound) Ah - we should get it shortly from RP> No sweat. [21:11] (Betahound) [21:12] (Nimitz) so you are in cuhoots [21:12] (Betahound) Also - we are about to take back the northern of the two cities they landed with. [21:12] (Betahound) Yes - with you, and RP, and GoW. [21:12] (Nimitz) they ttok 2 [21:13] (Betahound) They landed two settlers and created two citoes. [21:14] (Nimitz) ohhhhh.... [21:14] (Betahound) How are things on Lego? [21:14] (Nimitz) ohh fine fine [21:16] (Nimitz) I'm trying to cover up some of your [21:16] (Nimitz) chat rooms [21:17] (Nimitz) GS would know very quickly if they checked [21:17] (Nimitz) that RP and GoW were helping you [21:17] (Betahound) [21:18] (Betahound) That is true. [21:18] (Betahound) Your involvement and support is much more subtle. [21:19] (Betahound) And btw - we are looking for horses from NeuD. [21:19] (Nimitz) no chat rooms saying with a neon sihn we are together [21:19] (Betahound) agreed! [21:19] (Nimitz) ya we knew that [21:20] (Nimitz) who made those rooms [21:21] (Betahound) what rooms? [21:22] (Nimitz) these [21:22] (Nimitz) [21:08] -ChanServ- #PTWDGConference GoW-ND-RP Conference Room [21:22] (Nimitz) - [21:22] (Nimitz) [21:08] -ChanServ- #TigerTalks GoW-Vox-RP Conference Room [21:23] (Betahound) probably BigFree. [21:23] (Betahound) So you figure GS has seen them? [21:23] (Nimitz) ok then I told the right person [21:24] (Nimitz) not yet [21:24] (Betahound) k [21:24] (Nimitz) I don't think they would hide it if they did [21:24] (Betahound) So - back to the war. [21:24] (Nimitz) ok [21:25] (Betahound) It does not go as planned. But GS' landings can be countered. [21:25] (Betahound) We still have signifiacnt forces left - and will take out the city they have called - Inchon. [21:25] (Betahound) That should be in two turns. [21:25] (Nimitz) ok [21:26] (Nimitz) how many turns till you get help from the others [21:26] (Betahound) Then we will go after the iron landing. We also have settlers heading south to settle the remainder of 'our' territory in the southern part of Estonia. [21:26] (Betahound) RP can land next turn. [21:26] (Nimitz) how many troops [21:26] (Betahound) But we will ask them to hold off until we have retaken Inchon. [21:27] (Nimitz) ok [21:27] (Betahound) 2 to start with. But other galleys are following. [21:27] (Nimitz) 2 whats [21:27] (Nimitz) warriors [21:27] (Betahound) not sure. [21:28] (Betahound) pikes or med inf I think - or was that GoWE. [21:30] (Nimitz) hmm [21:33] (Betahound) hi - back - nature break [21:34] (Nimitz) ok [21:35] (Betahound) anything else to chat about [21:35] (Nimitz) well nothing specific [21:36] (Nimitz) so has our money helped [21:42] (Betahound) Very much so. It is still the most signifiacnt form of support we have received. But two closer nations are showing up soon with - er - tangible support. Wish you folks could be with them, But we understand. [21:45] (Nimitz) ya but we're far away [21:56] (Betahound) agreed - ok - so we'll call it a night. And will keep you guys posted. [21:57] (Nimitz) gtg bye

	06-06-2003 19:41									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe The loss of the Vox's iron is troubling for them - but more disturbing for us is the possibility of GS finding out about our "donations" to Vox. We had better work on a story in case they confront us about it perhaps.

Well, with almost everybody contributing the the anti-GS efforts in one way or another, I do not think this is a major problem. Even if GS finds out, we will be just one of (all other) teams indirectly doing harm to them. They will have to swallow that and choose their "new allies". We would be a natural choice, due to the distance from the GS homeland.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe That being said we should also face the fact that unless several other nations intervene, Vox will certainly fall to GS. Given what is happening, especially in that GS discussion thread, I suspect that while GS's long term relations are being damaged, it is also less likely that the other civs will intervene now.

Actually, quite the contrary. See my chat with BigFree (RP) - RPers are quite serious about taking over the brunt of the war against GS, it seems. They apparently feel threatened by GS in the long-term view - and I believe they are quite right in that. Plus, there is a visible "feud" between RPers and GS. Good for us!

	06-06-2003 19:48									#149
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I have received a PM from BetaHound about an hour ago. Quoting the relevant part:

quote: Now - ptwdg. Eeek. This is interesting. GS landed two stack with settlers and took our iron. Their northern city should not last long - in fact they incurred casualties trying to counter-attack from it already. And a large stack of catapults and Immortals will be there next turn to finish it off. We also have s ettler ready to claim the land and prevent such re-ocurrences. But - we are now on the defensive - which in some respects is easier. And we do need iron. Now - world politics. RP is very much on our side - and will likely supply iron. In this matter the Togas-GS feud works very much in our favour. GoW would appear to still be on side - but I am having a chat with Master Zen shortly to confirm. We have asked NeuD for horses. And Lego has already invested heavily in our war effort. So - there you have it - GS and Vox are also starting peace discussions. We feel we need to keep all options open at this time. There is a mutual agreement to discuss peace while the war continues. Interesting concept - but understandable. Sources tell us that many on GS want the total destruction of Vox, or at least unconditional surrender. We have other options in the work - including an 'exodus' option. Galleys and settlers and workers. Is the Legos Minor option still available. It may be needed. Life in Vox has been difficult. It almost feels at time that I am simply playing another single player pbem game. There has been more interest as of late because of our 'situation', but by and large I am carrying 95% of the team load. This is discouraging - and not really what the team concept is all about. I raised a thread to discuss it, got some comments, but no firm commitments from anybody. We will see where it goes. And last but not least - isn't the GS Public Announcement thread a hoot. They are still way off the mark on most FA aspects. They still don't get it. There is a lot of discussion in the chat rooms amongst players of the other teams about the GS attitude. I think it will be their downfall. And it will probably be what ultimately rallies world support behind Vox, regardless of how spurious our claim to any moral high-ground may be. And beleive me - I know it is spurious. .

	07-06-2003 07:21									#150
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quote: That being said we should also face the fact that unless several other nations intervene, Vox will certainly fall to GS.

I stand by my statement UNLESS Vox gets help from other nations, they would fall to GS - but unless it is a large scale deception against us and Vox, it does appear that they are getting the help that they need.

Plus the method which GS used to get the iron away from Vox was.... unexpected - in the chat last night we thought it was a military invasion and that pikes were sitting on the iron mountain (terrible odds for even a immos attack). I would have never thought about settlers founding cities ... that actually helps Vox quite a bit as it should be a lot easier to regain the iron than a GS military invasion.

quote: Given what is happening, especially in that GS discussion thread, I suspect that while GS's long term relations are being damaged, it is also less likely that the other civs will intervene now.

Admittedly I seem to be wrong here, their actions in that thread seem to have united the world against GS.

Let's just hope that this doesn't happen to us as we are very likely to pass GS in score and power again now that we are in republic. Thankfully we seem to have much more friends than GS ever did...