25-06-2003 15:55									#271
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I don't know the difference by heart, but I have the editor up (where I can check easily) for other reasons. Banking is 52 and Astronomy is 56, so the difference is fairly trivial compared with the total costs. I wouldn't mind trying an offer of 180 gold plus a world map and seeing what happens; considering the cost difference for the other two techs, it would be a reasonable deal.

	25-06-2003 16:21									#272
	Got spare money?

okay, so that seems doable. at 26(?) per editor cost, that would amount to a difference of about 100 gold, or at 25% some 25 gold in our favor.

Do we have to funds to offer it to them right now, in total, in next turn? If so, I'd rather offer them the choice:
- 180 gold plus WM asap (next turn)
- 100 gold plus WM now, 100 gold in 3-4 turns (still before they give us education).

This means they can chose, or further negotiate if they want.

One final thing: does this mean we will definately be going for banking? I don't mind, but if we promise it to Lego, we should do it, or face further negotiations to change the deal...

DeepO

	25-06-2003 16:52									#273
	Got spare money?

Based on my earlier check with Education, if the multiplier is an integer, it has to be 24. Multiply 24 times 44 and you get 1056, which fits neatly within the range I'd pinned the cost down to (and is the only integer that fits).

We have the gold to pay for Education up front (and still pay for Chivalry with some left over). I definitely don't want to offer them extra gold for a delayed payment, since I don't see anything I'd want to spend the gold on in the next 3-4 turns.

I think the Banking/Astronomy deal is definitely something we want to pursue. Imagine our galleys upgraded to caravels. But it might be good to discuss with Lego the possibility that changing world events can disrupt plans, and the longer-range the plans, the greater the risk of disruption.

	25-06-2003 16:56									#274
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I can confirm, that the multiplier is 24, based on our research analyses during the ancient age.

	25-06-2003 17:56									#275
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think 180g+WM is a lowball offer. But if we wanna start there, we start there, but be prepared to come up.

I'd go as high as 250g+WM.

Also, Nathan posed an important question w/regard to Astronomy & Banking.

Let's see if we can get Lego to agree that each team has EXCLUSIVE rights to sell the tech they research. So we research banking, and though we provide it to Lego, they agree to never sell it on. Likewise for us with Astronomy.

-Arrian

	25-06-2003 19:30									#276
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Arrian, I think that's the idea behind having 20-turn NDAs... although asking about pure exlusive rights might be good too. However, I'd hate us to be the ones proposing it, as it will cause others to see us even more as protectionists.

I agree, maybe the 180+WM is a bit too low. We'll see, if they don't go for it, it's ok too. It will be an important point if we can give it to them right away (do we still have the save after I return home? Maybe we could even offer it to them this turn)

DeepO

	25-06-2003 20:10									#277
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With the Lighthouse our Caravels can travel on sea tiles right? That would allow us to find any other land out there before anyone else. Copernicus would be a good next build in Hurricane too. Lego could beat us, but then it would make a nice Smith's build most likely. I'd rather we be the ones to research Astronomy, but if Lego is going to perfectly time a Copernicus prebuild, it isn't going to matter anyways. We can't have a prebuild in place soon enough to finish even the turn after.

I think with the Astronomy/Banking deal, we should try to have a 'share the wealth' type agreement in place. If one of our teams has sole rights to trade the techs (indefinitely), and is willing to split the profits, we can probably both get more than Lego or GS (whoever is deemed less worthy of being embargoed) would get if we were bidding against each other. At the least we should be able to get 2 more techs each from the deal.

If we are bidding against each other (even with 20 turn NDA's), the likelyhood of the winning team getting 200g or less for their tech is pretty high given how trading has been working in this game.

	25-06-2003 20:59									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson With the Lighthouse our Caravels can travel on sea tiles right?

Can't they travel sea tiles anyway? I thought that upon discovery of astro, all boats (including galleys) could travel the sea, just not the ocean. And the lighthouse doesn't change that: it doesn't let caravels travel ocean tiles... but they remain one MP faster, of course.

DeepO

	25-06-2003 21:03									#279
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Astronomy allows travel on Sea tiles I think. Navigation/Magnetism are the ones that open up Ocean travel for all vessels.

	25-06-2003 21:53									#280
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Right, so Caravels can travel on sea no matter what, but our Lighthouse gives us an extra move (plus sea travel for our galleys).

I like your "share the wealth" idea, Aeson.

I say we propose that to Lego.

-Arrian

	25-06-2003 22:37									#281
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okay, just sent a very quick proposal, Arrian and nye, could you please keep an eye on a response from Vondrack? I probably won't be able to check again this evening (sorry, something came up, I did not expect to go out tonight, but duty calls )

DeepO

	25-06-2003 23:59									#282
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quote: I did not expect to go out tonight, but duty calls

"Don't think of it as work." [/Animal House]



-Arrian

	26-06-2003 21:34									#283
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I think we could raise our offer a bit, but not too much. 200g and our map, with Furs for 20 turns once Astronomy comes around (basically no value, but see if they'll bite)

We should also remind Lego that they (and everyone but GoW) passed on 200g for Feudalism with half the NTA. 275g for Education (44) would be the equivalent of 200g for Feudalism (32), but the length of the NTA difference, and that 200g wasn't viable for Feudalism, was the basis of our offer.

Perhaps we can give them a further promise that we won't attempt to resale (by making future trade agreements with it) on the Tech for the 20 turns, so that they are almost guaranteed to be the one's able to trade it, and without competition. Unlike with us, where GoW obviously was negotiating to sell it after the agreement expired from the time we gave it to them (if not before).

	26-06-2003 21:38									#284
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Forgot to mention, we should bite on the 'delay for a few extra turns' bit, and try to get it 3-4 turns. Then we could offer more gold, say 300 (it's worth it IMO in that timeframe, gives us a viable shot at Copernicus if we go builder, if we go warmonger... we should just upgrade though ).

	26-06-2003 21:48									#285
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Aeson, I kind of anticipated that, and I agree in full. The reply I sent Vondrack (I did log that one, no?) tries to address these issues... it mentions the longer NDA, it mentions that we would like to get into some kind of agreement where the researcher profits from subsequent sales after the NDA expires. The only thing that works in their advantage is the promise of waiving the difference between Astro and banking, but using the same ratio, that is only a 24 gold advantage.

I wouldn't offer them furs just yet, but it could be a promise. Let's first of all see what they ask...

I was under the impression that they can't hurry it more then they're already doing, but maybe I'm wrong.

Oh, and Re: Copernicus: Are you talking about getting it after the Colossus, or forgoing the Colossus, and going for Copernicus instead? I'd rather have the Colossus... it's science output increase isn't that big as Copernicus, but it comes very close (only the tiles with 3 commerce get more with Cop), and doesn't only work for beakers, but also for gold. (and luxury, but that doesn't apply). For me, the Colossus has priority over Copernicus...

DeepO

	26-06-2003 21:59									#286
	Inflate your Upload Space

He's talking about Education in 3-4 turns MORE than their max pace, I think. So instead of 6 turns, 9 or 10. That gives us more time to complete the Colossus, and then allows us some time to prebuild Copernicus (though I suspect they will be doing the same).

-Arrian

	26-06-2003 22:07									#287
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Ahh... sorry, misunderstanding there. Yes, that could be useful...

I was thinking today about something Vondrack said in last chat: they want to start their GA peacefully. So... they're planning on a commercial wonder, in about 30 turns... is Copernicus commercial?

DeepO

	26-06-2003 22:12									#288
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quote: I was under the impression that they can't hurry it more then they're already doing, but maybe I'm wrong.

No, I meant we want Lego to research it slower.

If we get the Collosus in 5 turns, start our prebuild of Copernicus at 18-19 shields per turn... that puts us at ~22 turns to finish. So if instead of getting Education a turn or two into our prebuild, we get it 5 turns in, then we'd be timed pretty well if Astronomy takes Lego 15 turns to finish.

If we could tie together a Banking/Invention/Astronomy deal (with ND getting Education for Invention), then we might be able to get Lego to slow down research to match that of ND, which would allow us to perfectly time (or at least overbuild) the prebuild for Copernicus, and make a prebuild for Smiths timed that much better.

The Astronomy/Banking swap needs to come with a 'whoever researches Banking gets to be the one to research Economics' clause. That way both teams end up researching a wonder tech. It would also be very interesting to see how Lego reacts to something like that, as I suspect they want Smiths to start their GA (and no doubt want Copernicus too).

We need to come to a concensus about where we are headed soon though. If it's war, we can just forget about the top half of the tech tree for now. Let Lego build the Wonders, and we build Knights...

	26-06-2003 22:13									#289
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Smith's, Collosus, Great Lighthouse, Magellan's, and the UN are commercial wonders.

	26-06-2003 22:32									#290
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Hmmm... 15 turns to Astronomy? I agree it would be perfect, however I doubt they'll go for it. Maybe with some serious diplomatic juggling... but it will be extremely hard to ask for such a delay without them expecting us to prebuild Copernicus. And, after we build the Colossus (hopefully we do), it's so logical to go for Copernicus nobody can miss the hint, so this delay should be negotiated beforehand.

If I see their current rate of research, they can get techs every 8-9 turns without running a deficit. With more libs, unis, and the pyramids, that should speed up... asking for 15 turns on a tech might be overdoing it.

I can't see them building Magellan's easily (which would also more or less be timed right), so they would be going for Smith's. I agree, we need to ask for the right to research Economics, using our planning skills to build Smith's the same turn we discover Econ. That should be relatively easy to negotiate, and should leave us enough time to get a proper prebuild going in Tempest. How fast can we start on that, BTW? If I'm not mistaken, Tempest is also at 18-19 shields max, meaning 32 turns to Smith's... better start there early just in case.

If we would negotiate our way towards Econ, I'm sure Lego will go for Navigation asap (don't know by heart how many prereq's they need). Maybe also something to use in negotiations.

DeepO

	27-06-2003 13:55									#291
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reply just in... bottom line is they ask for 230 gold + WM.

I see 3 options (I'm sure there are more):
1. accept it as is
2. try to negotiate down
3. try to include e.g. a delay of a couple of turns to Bob, and accept the 230 offer.

Not much time today, I'll see the result this afternoon / evening.

DeepO

	28-06-2003 00:47									#292
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think it's a pretty good deal if we can get the Banking researcher gets to research Economics part put in. That gives both of us at least one good wonder tech to trade around. Whoever goes for Astronomy can then chose Music Theory, Invention or Navigation to get another wonder tech too.

We're basically talking about less than a turn of income, which isn't a terribly big deal.

	28-06-2003 01:25									#293
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230 gold + WM is okay, I guess.. But us going for Economics is important too, as Aeson pointed out...

Soon, our commerce output will get a nice boost, first from the Colossus and some time later with Vox's towns after the FP is completed. That means that in the tech after the next, we could probably aim for a tech lead, unless war erupts and we are called to arms. We better prepare for it, maybe even by securing long term deals now.

	30-06-2003 00:47									#294
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okay... I'll give them the 230, asking for economics. I hope to have a chat with Lego in about an hour, but first of all I need to get up to date here (and with my e-mail)

points of chat:
- current deal
- possible 'share the profit' schemes later
- chitchat if they want (basically, I'm quite tired after a good weekend, so not too much from my side)

Anything else? People want to join? I'll leave a message here once I get the room set up.

DeepO

	30-06-2003 01:02									#295
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The time is impossible for me, I'm afraid. I'll probably fall asleep over the keyboard if I go.

	30-06-2003 01:43									#296
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Nevermind, I'll participate.
I feel that there should be at least two of us there. I fear that Lego might take advantage of the situation if only DeepO shows up, and bombard him with questions without giving him a chance to ask anything back.

	30-06-2003 01:44									#297
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No worries, Shiber. I am along and it is just vondrack for them.

	30-06-2003 01:50									#298
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chat has started... msg me if you want to join

DeepO

	30-06-2003 01:51									#299
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Damn... was thrown off the server, and can't get back in. Please send my apologies to Vondrack, I'll keep trying

DeepO

	30-06-2003 02:02									#300
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You're back!