14-06-2003 21:42									#211
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ahhhh... do we have a sense of what Lego's objectives are?

BTW, I don;t think I said it anywhere specifically, but I'm pretty sure Vondrack is the anon sympathizer.

	14-06-2003 22:02									#212
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He's not.
Please don't post any more guesses or you may hit the target and then I won't know what to say without neither lying nor sounding suspicious

	14-06-2003 22:10									#213
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Hope it isn't Zargon, I was a tad snippy with him just now.

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 22:21									#214
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Well, Vondrack is certainly going out of his way to help.

	14-06-2003 22:22									#215
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Help Vox, you mean.

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 22:23									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Hope it isn't Zargon, I was a tad snippy with him just now. -Arrian

No more guesses! ZIP IT!
(and for the record, it isn't )

	14-06-2003 22:24									#217
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To be honest I think this a multiple team effort, perhaps only team contacted GOW, but that don't mean there is just one team involved.

	14-06-2003 22:27									#218
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No, I think Vondrack has been helping us in the public forum... he's got it disguised in the "peace" rhetoric, but he's been dropping hints and giving clues like mad!!

The June 10th bit he just laid out was perfect... I am going to use it to launch StormHawk.

	14-06-2003 22:27									#219
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Oh, it's pretty clear that several teams are working against us, yes (from GoW's comments regarding tech trading).

RP & Lego for sure. ND? Don't think so.

-Arrian

	15-06-2003 00:23									#220
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Vondrack hint at foreigners being on his land, was just a reference to Barbs though, shouldn't read to much into it IMHO.
-
Don't take him on to hard either (for what vox did etc and certainly not on a personal level), he is a very stand-up guy.

Yeah, I know I'm a softy

	15-06-2003 00:24									#221
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Did we contact or have we been contacted by Lego yet?
The chat idea was a very good one, follow up on that even if the initiative comes from us. (maybe even better)

	15-06-2003 00:34									#222
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Yes check thelog.. I am entering it now...

Mss

	15-06-2003 01:02									#223
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Excellent. That's what I was after all along:

1) I wanted other teams to admit they had invested in Vox, and their reason for wanting peace is so they could get a return on their investment; and

2) A frank discussion with us about what can be done about that, in light of the fact that Vox is dead meat.

-Arrian

	15-06-2003 05:08									#224
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Argggg. I was at work and did not realise that the mIRC I was using is not set to log. No one else here was there all the way through, except Shiber who was close, but left before I did.

The highlights of the chat are that Lego wants to help arrange peace with us and Vox.

Points.
1. Lego gives us Theology
2. Fighting between Vox and GS stops
3. We undertake not to build the Sistine
4. Vox leaves Stormia (my name for our island, not sure if someone else has used it before). They most likely settle on Legos Minor.

I told vondrack and Lego that we would most likely have certain conditions. However, I really need the log before I can recount the ones I brought up. Sir Ralph had a very good one too. Additionally, I made it clear that other members of GS may insist on additional conditions.

I will try to find a Lego block to give me the log.

One other thing I would like to put to them, we think that any presense on Stormia of forces of any other nation would be counter productive to peace negotiations continuing. ie, reign in you puppets or forget it.

	15-06-2003 06:18									#225
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Maybe we could try a feeler for if the Sistine clause coupled with a like Collosus clause would be acceptable to Lego?

I don't understand why Vox would be willing to leave, AND Lego gives us Theology... when we already offered to give Vox peace if they left? Not that I'd complain, but it is kinda weird.

	15-06-2003 06:26									#226
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I think we come off as a herd of enraged Komodo in 'that thread'. They know that we will need a bone or two to chew on.

Also, Lego is very concerned with the potential for us to gain more GLs, and thus cut them off in a build. That was their lead in to the whole idea.

	15-06-2003 06:26									#227
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I'm launching StormHawk.

Maybe the peace discussions from chat can form the basis of the 'opposing' StormDove faction?

But, in reality, we remain cohesive in here.

	15-06-2003 10:04									#228
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quote: One other thing I would like to put to them, we think that any presense on Stormia of forces of any other nation would be counter productive to peace negotiations continuing. ie, reign in you puppets or forget it.

Brilliantly done. Absolutely
That's one cornered puppy you've got there.

	15-06-2003 10:29									#229
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It's OK, alva, I think. The Stormhawk thing allows for some extremism, but it certainly needs to be balanced by doves and rationality.

Those who need it, let the steam off!

	15-06-2003 11:42									#230
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Chat posted.

Highlights of the chat:

Main Points of Peace:
1. the fighting between Vox and GS stops
2. Lego gives GS theology
3. Vox leaves Stormia
4. GS promises not to build the Sistine Chappel

GS CounterPoints laid out to date (more can be added):
1. Vox army. Most of it disbands before any cease fire goes into effect
2. Timing. What do they need to build and how long do they need? [It can not go too long]
3. Verification. GS would need unhindered access to our new lands to verify comliance
4. Harbour. The vox harbour is sold before the cease fire goes into effect. No Iron for Vox before they vacate
5. Free era techs. These will be sold to GS at reasonable prices
6. Compensation. GS seeks compensation for the effects of the embargo on us. [GS got jobbed on Feudalism. That score must be settled].
7... To be added by GS

Best moment:
[23:30] {Shiber> And Beta has killed any remaining chances for peace with Vox still on the continent.
[23:30] {vondrack> yes, that part is clear
[23:31] {Shiber> Not really killed, more like tortured, raped, mutilated, pulled by the hair into an industrial meat tenderizer, melted, vaporized, loaded onto a rocket and blasted it off into the sun
[23:31] {Shiber> or something

I move that Shiber be nominated for understatement of the year.


Weasel words of the chat:
[00:37] {nye_too> we are under the impression that we have been the subject of an embargo.
[00:37] {nye_too> that embargo has damaged our position.
[00:38] {vondrack> as far as I know there was no embargo put in effect
[00:38] {vondrack> can speak for Lego only though
[00:38] {nye_too> i am sure that nathan will have some ideas on what would need to be done to address that
[00:38] {nye_too> it has been reported to us. we do not require confirmation or denial
[00:38] {vondrack> ok, let me rephrase: Legoland has never agreed to embargo you
[00:39] {vondrack> we did not need Feu for quite some time
[00:39] {vondrack> and then we simply "got it"
...
[00:42] {vondrack> as I said - we never joind any embargo against you
[00:42] {vondrack> and I believe I can even say
[00:42] {nye_too> yes. well. vox is the subject of the excercise.
[00:42] {nye_too> not just lego
[00:42] {vondrack> we have never heard of one being put in effect
[00:42] {vondrack> but then, even we may not know everything
[00:43] {nye_too> let's leave that alone. as i said, we do not need confirmation or denial
[00:43] {vondrack> alright

Honestly, I am surprised vondrack would think me that stupid. Ahh well. Life goes on. I would like to remain involved in contact with these guys. I am on very good terms with vondrack. I think I could help us with them.

	15-06-2003 11:50									#231
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Proposed response to vondrack. We do not have much time...

Hi, vondrack.

Please reread that thread. Theseus is trying to defuse emotions for the good of Apolyton. You may not consider things from Beta's threads to be very serious, but please try to place yourself in the shoes of members of the team being the target of them. Honestly, this game has gone off the rails in some respects and several members of GS are considering resigning because it is not fun to face that crap on a recurring basis. Several members of GS have a high sense of honour, and they feel that honour sullied by Beta's continuous assaults on the truth about us and our actions. Can you and Lego understand that? If you cannot, then you will never understand GS.

Yes, he is using the device of the StormHawks, but stay tuned, the peace marches start soon. It is intended to be fun. Please join in.

quote: Hi, nye! Finished reading the news. I must admit that the public announcement of the StormHawk party is definitely the way to go on with our negotiations... I would have appreciated if we received at least some response to our proposal before your team pushes for the kill publicly... or, is this just an initiative of a small GS member group? We were honest in our offer and sincerely hoped you would consider it. Now, is this still an option or shall we consider the proposal officially rejected? vondrack P.S.: I will do my best to stop hostilities on Estonia/Stormia. Unfortunately, I have no control over other teams - but I have expressly demanded in my email to Beta (sent after our chat) that Vox stop any hostilities and sit on the save. I need some time to sort this out.

	15-06-2003 13:10									#232
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vondrack says Vox is sitting on the save. They are next.

That means we have a long bit to discuss this. Up to 48 hours from Togas' pass of the save.

	15-06-2003 13:29									#233
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All the teams say our diplomacy is bad... Lego and Vox have negotiated to add Feudalism and Theology to our previous demands. Good job guys!

I would like to include a feeler about the Collosus. Ask if they would be willing to reciprocate in regards to Sistene. If Lego is building it too, it would really help us to know, and should be obvious by their answer. None of the other civs seem to have much of a shot at it at this point.

	15-06-2003 13:33									#234
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Feudalism?

About the Colossus: Agreed, let's ask them.

	15-06-2003 14:05									#235
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Yeah. Our diplomacy sux.

	15-06-2003 14:14									#236
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yeah. Our diplomacy sux.

As long as Beta's "brilliant diplomacy" is only giving us more excuses to ask for more out of a Voxodus agreement, yes, we're the ones that suck...

	15-06-2003 15:05									#237
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Feudalism = Engineering.. sorry

	15-06-2003 23:15									#238
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damn... I missing important events with the team assigned to me

Feeling bad... I'm going to catch up now, and post some comments later (I have some impressions, but am far from up to date)...

Maybe I need to resign as ambassador, I want to be more involved again, but can't see how I'm going to find the time soon. Hopefully, with summer coming, my schedule will ligthen up a bit again, but I'm not sure. This PhD thing is starting to look less and less as the prolonged vacation from work it used to be

DeepO

	16-06-2003 01:17									#239
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Lego's situation in all of this...

I don't know. I can appreciate Vondrack personally wants to get this game back in the half-friendly atmosphere it started in, and I certainly will cheer that. But it looks a bit artificial to me, he certainly is going out of his way to get us to comply. I'm not sure how the assumption was reached that Lego was the one sending mercs after us (I have a hard time believing it, even if it certainly makes sense in a game perspective), but if so, Lego certainly is a better puppetmaster then Togas & Co ever will be... they remain out of sight.

Things I would have liked to be seen in this chat was more talk about tech trading, more talk about possible Lux deals (if our lighthouse can really reach them, we have a very powerful negotiation tool at hand, as we could even become a middleman for Bobian luxes), and more talk about their benefits (although they seem to want to be relatively open with us, in order to convince us). And a feeler for the Colllosus, as Aeson asked before.

A thing that stroke me in the chat was the comment of Vondrack that already a enemy force was on their continent: does that mean GoW have a few units landed there? Or was it just a comment to their barbarians, which they seem to loath, and GoW thinks are a very good source of income for them? (I tend to think the same: If they still keep them free, these are great opportunities for upgrades, and gold)

Further, don't tell them they won't need Sistine, if they feel they absolutely have to build it, let them. And getting Theo for free if want to waive Sistine sounds like a super deal to me, but I fear what Lego will get in return for their kindness.

Oh, and Legoland has to be absolutely huge, if they give half (or a third) of it away so easily. But that we already knew

DeepO

	16-06-2003 01:30									#240
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I'm not sure how the assumption was reached that Lego was the one sending mercs after us (I have a hard time believing it, even if it certainly makes sense in a game perspective)

Well, some people raised the notion, but I didn't think much of it until Vondrack mentioned that they can ask GoW to pull back their units. That made them the prime suspect in my eyes.