16-06-2003 01:35									#241
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quote: does that mean GoW have a few units landed there?

The one regarding to this in the publu forum to me indicated Barbs.
I didn't catch this one in the chat, so no idea, but I think he meant the same thing.

	16-06-2003 03:43									#242
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I'll see if I find the quote, that should clear things up. Maybe I just read it wrong, it sounded different then on the public forum. Plus, I was wondering on UnO's story, we know it is based on the thruth, but just how far? Maybe GoW is also farming barbs.

I think I just realized why Lego wants Vox so close to them, up until now I was always puzzled, there are benefits, but none seem so great as to invite them to their continent when you have the pyramids to fuel your expansion, and you're designated builders.

It wouldn't surprise me if Lego and Vox from now on sign some kind of MPP, notice how Vondrack said somewhere they were obliged to keep them alive in case things went badly with the war? It might very well be that Vox will somewhat become the smaller brother of Lego, not exactly a vasal, but more of a brother team. Legoland knows that it won't get support from Bob when times get critical, and might certainly fear us, in which case a close partner will certainly help. And by inviting Vox, they buy their eternal friendship (well, as much as they can trust them, but it's easy to trust someone who is half your size).

I think it's safe to assume Vox will be a (smaller) power to keep thinking on if we let the Voxodus occur, certainly when it comes to Legoland. The question is: will we give this kind of opportunity to another team?

DeepO

	16-06-2003 03:57									#243
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quote: [23:26] {Shiber> anyway, lots of barbarians in your 'hood, i hear [23:26] {Shiber> i heard that vox is moving in soon though [23:26] {vondrack> yeah... we have been able to pull a great contract with them

This I found, but it was not the quote I was looking for... if I see it, I'll quote. I don't know where I read it anymore, sorry.

DeepO

	16-06-2003 03:59									#244
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We can't stop a Voxodus, DeepO. Lego could gift Vox a city next turn. In fact, they would have to for the worker trasfer to take place. Yes?

What we can do is stop the orderly depopulation of Voxes Stormian cities. We would gain some slaves. Perhaps we would gain another GL, but no assurances of that.

We would lose goodwill with Lego, RP and GoW perhaps. We would lose 2 free techs. We would need to continue building some forces to replace loses, so we would lose more development time in some of our cities.

We would also run the risk of GoW and RP coming across the straights in some strength, perhaps occupying some ex-Vox cities. We could then look forward to dealing with immortals defending cities, with horsemen nipping at our vulnerabilities.

I think this war has gone very well. The landing at Elipolis and its capture may not have been the optimal military move (I would have landed to kill immortals before they killed 6 of our pikes) but it very well could crown our decisive victory over Vox. Taking that city has demoralised them and their sponsors. It has them ready to give us all that we could capture and a bit more. We give up some slaves, and the chance at another GL. I like it.

	16-06-2003 04:08									#245
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I realise that we can't stop a Voxodus and how it will affect our standing in the world, that's not really my point. I was just analyzing: if Lego really gets a full time MPP partner in Vox (added to coordinated research, or even 1 team on research, the other on tax), we should try to see this beforehand, and try to react to it. If we don't see possible reasons for Lego to do this (besides the already mentioned ones, of course), we can only say afterwards: "that we should have spotted, it was so obvious it would happen"

How to counter it? Difficult... maybe demand from Lego that whatever tech they gain from Vox, they will sell us at half the price if Vox refuses. Maybe we need to consult all the other teams with this proposal, surely they are also kind of involved. If Bob is in on this proposal, and the mediator role Vondrack is assuming, they might have opinions on this too. If they also think to gain (e.g. in tech) by keeping Vox alive, we might get some gifts there to, or at least some assurances.

Besides, it would be good for relations anyway.

BTW, would it be possible to ask for a general time-out publicly (say 3 days), so that we have time to do this diplo stuff? 24 hours isn't much...

DeepO

	16-06-2003 04:15									#246
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I agree, DeepO. The potential is there that Lego is gaining a 40 turn research puppet. We can't stop that in time. My bet is that they already have a settler prepared to pop a city and gift to Vox. I would.

This is something that we should discuss with the world.

We have a little left before Vox passes to Lego. Lego then has 24 hours. Then we have 24 hours. If we really need to we can ask for an extention near the end of Lego's time, or right at the beginning of ours.

	16-06-2003 04:28									#247
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The problem with the time is that Vox can start on Voxodus this turn, move their troops where we want them, and generally surrender instead of having to adhere to a unilateral cease fire. Which means we need that extension before they need to pass on their turn...

DeepO

	24-06-2003 04:01									#248
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Right.. the chat just ended... which also reminds me why I don't particularly like chats, I type too much, they always end up being hours long

We learned quite a number of things, though.

1. The deal for Theo / no Sistine clause will go through. We should ratify it asap, a message from vondrack should arrive soon. If we manage to ratify it before they play their turn, it should be offered us now.

(one question, though: it looks they have Theo for quite some time now... are any other techs already discovered? we missed this one in the rush of the past few days)

2. we need to start discussing what to research next. Aeson brought up the idea of splitting cost, where we pay them gold, so they can get to Edu faster (fastest would be 6-7 turns). Otherwise, the only real tech open is printing press, as we're going to need to wait on Vox's engineering before we can start on invention. Lego prefers to go for Astronmoy after that.

3. we keep them posted on the Voxodus plans. (Need a chat with Vox here!). They are going to settle a city in 5 turns, and add a worker to it asap. The plan was to allow Vox to poprush a spear as the place seems to be infested with barbs. we might be able to do a bit more with this information, perhaps not. For Lego, it is no option to have the city there for any longer as necessary (i.e. they want to gtift it the turn it gets settled), as it disrupts corruption... Vox's captial will be closer then their outmost city.

4. They have deals for Engineering and Chivalry, but nothing else. Further, they haven't made deals with all teams for Sistine yet, but it looks like they're close.

5. they are not planning on a peaceful GA soon! So... no Collosus, although it remains an option. There is a clause in the Vox treaty to keep an unupgraded warrior for them, so in case it's need they can start their GA like that, but Vondrack seems to prefer a peaceful start himself, in at least 30 turns.

6. they're not really interested in extra lux, before Astronomy, certainly if it means them paying gold for it. But, seeing as this is still an idea, and Aeson doesn't think it is possible, we shouldn't put anymore resources in it. They definately like to trade after astronomy

7. WM: seeing as they won't give out their map, I proposed to sell ours at 50 gold. They made clear they can't afford it now, but would be perhaps interested in buying it on a loan (which is fine for me, personally). still needs to be discussed.

Other comments will surely follow, I'll try to reread the log (that is, if I don't fall asleep half way through it). I found it quite interesting....

DeepO

	24-06-2003 11:11									#249
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Certainly a from me for this deal.

	24-06-2003 13:55									#250
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We should clarify with them about the possibility of using Sistine as a prebuild, firstly so they don't get paranoid if we do switch a prebuild to the Sistine for some reason, and secondly so they can warn us if they are going to complete the Sistine soon and ruin our prebuild (once we agree to a no-Sistine clause they might be willing to give us an ETA on their build, if we promise not to share the information).

	24-06-2003 21:59									#251
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last message from Vondrack:

1. we can use Sistine as a prebuild

2. They would be willing to speed along in research towards Edu, if we help them in gold. They have an ETA of 6 turns. As a proposal, they ask for half our 100% tax income.
I responded we would bring a good offer, without disclosing our exact gold income...

So: Do we want to spend gold on Lego getting Edu sooner? I would say that, in case we get it in 6 turns, and we are not allowed to trade it on, a good deal would be about 1/4 of their cost... don't know how much this amounts too (250 gold?), but if we provide it to them before they actually do the research, that should be enough. The price for the WM should be distracted from that (so we end up with about 200 gold for Edu, if we would pay now)

3. They want to prearrange future tech-deals (which was one of the ideas we proposed in chat), and ask for prearranging Banking (us) / Astronomy (Lego). Astronomy is more expensive, but they want to wave the difference in case the first deal gets accepted.
I certainly welcome the idea of having at least one good deal for our next tech, and I don't think many will object to this. However, we need to decide quickly what we want to research in 6 turns time...

Please comment on this quickly, Legoland should not be left waiting. Certainly not on the Edu deal... I'm away for the rest of the evening, so Arrian or nye, could you respond to them in case anything gets decided today?

DeepO

	24-06-2003 22:04									#252
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2. 6 turns? Bob will most likely be in war by then. Who will buy the tech?
Even if we offer it on a loan with 0% interest, noone would commit now. Education has no military value, and no value at all when you're only building military units.

	24-06-2003 22:06									#253
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Additionally, if we sign a tech deal with Lego, I'd like Vox to be involved. Lego can press them and force them (the easy way or the hard way) to pay some of the costs.

	24-06-2003 22:13									#254
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well... I thought to avoid the war on Bob, by offering not to resell it ourselves (for the moment). After 20 turns, the war might have ended... If we can leave the risk in Lego's hands, while still profiting from getting Edu early, it would be good for us (I think). The only exception is if we would get attacked.

The 200 gold (+WM) I propose over 6 turns should be enough to keep our reserve at the point we are now, or even do a bit better then that. 100% tax leads to what, 80 gold per turn? half of that means 240 gold in 6 turns, so it is what they ask for... we would need to find a way to word it properly, though.

DeepO

	24-06-2003 22:15									#255
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Oh, and Re: Vox: Do you mean for astro/banking? Vox won't have any gold to spend, and if we race along, they can't keep doing 40-turn research either. So before they build up their empire again, they are not really a factor to take into account IMHO.

DeepO

	24-06-2003 22:20									#256
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So if we kick in 50% of our tax revenue for 6 turns, we get education and we get a banking for astronomy trade (straight up)?

What would half of our 100% tax be? ~50 gpt? So ~300 gold?

It sounds pretty good... what do our brilliant economists think?

-Arrian

	24-06-2003 22:22									#257
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DeepO, why 200 gold+WM?

Are we seriously considering offering more than they have bargained for?

Since Lego is using the "we need gold" argument, and since we have a stronger case in that regard (a huge army to support), I see no reason in not saying- our gpt is low at the moment (without specifing anything), if we have to explain why we can't offer more.

our income over 6 turns is roughly 350, that makes 175 gold, a 40 gold discount (if we want to be nice) is 135 gold+WM. I don't think we should offer anything beyond 150 gold +WM. At this point, gold is quite important for us- for upkeep and maintenance.

Last edited by zeit on 24-06-2003 at 22:40

	24-06-2003 22:29									#258
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I think the lump sum + map is a good way to go, maybe even throw in a future luxury consideration. They only have 1 luxury (dyes?), and so we probably can only trade one of our luxuries to them. They'd want to get 1 from each other team instead of paying for a 2nd, and given Sistene (and their plans to build Cathedrals), I doubt they need/want them very badly.

I think we should coordinate the 2nd tech ETA's if possible. With the Collosus and at least a couple Libraries, we should be able to keep up with them, but pressing tech too hard is going to hurt us both (ie. Feudalism), and make the targets on our backs a bit more enticing to Bob. Maybe we should tie it into a trade for invention with ND, as then we could expect a ~15 turn ETA at the earliest, saving up gold in the interim.

Either that or we could say that 10 turns is our optimal ETA for Education. If we can make sure Astronomy shows up in roughly 25 turns, we'd have a shot at Copernicus in Hurricane. If it shows up earlier than that, I wouldn't expect us to get it at all. We'd also want to start researching Economics for Smith's in the same timeframe.

	24-06-2003 22:52									#259
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Securing Education for Invention with ND if and after we sign this kind of deal with Lego sounds like a great idea! I'm all for it.
As for what we're going to offer Lego... whether 180-200 + WM is too high or too low is a good question. We have to consider what Lego is expecting to hear. Perhaps they're hoping for 300 gold, thinking that the legendary GS with all its brilliant economists must be making that much, and they'll be greatly disappointed when they hear numbers like 180. Still, I'd offer 180 gold + WM - if they're hoping for ~300, 180 is a good starting point for us in negotiations.

	24-06-2003 23:28									#260
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Let me ask a couple of questions:

How many beakers is Education worth?

Would this deal for Education come with any sort of NDA, or could we attempt to sell it (though I suspect even if we could that either 1) lego would already have deals in place; or 2) the Bobians won't feel like spending much money for education with a war looming).

Off the top of my head, without access to the game, I'd say that throwing 200-300 gold at Lego now for Education in 6 turns plus a Banking <-> Astronomy deal after that is pretty good.

DeepO or I could ask Vondrack about the idea of slowing the pace down a bit too and see what he thinks. If we do slow the pace a bit, perhaps our payment could be in installments (if the total is 300, perhaps 150 now and 150 in say, 5 turns) so that we have some leeway for rush projects too.

-Arrian

	25-06-2003 01:27									#261
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I agree- hearing those sums will be quite dissapointing for them- but that's life. We heard alot of "sorry, we're low on funds" when we attempted to sell our goods, why do we feel so considerate all of a sudden.

I'm not saying we should give a hard time for Lego on this- But we don't have to think about fairness alone- this is our precious (yes it is) gold we are talking about- I'm sure Lego wouldn't have had a problem saying they can't spend much (as they have done already), and there's no reason why we could whine a bit about our own problems. Lego even gave us an opening- Vondrack did mention we have to pay alot for our "retired soldiers".
I see no reason why not at least try to start with 150 gold- as our economy is really not in such a great shape, in terms of gpt output...

300 is ridiculous- Do you really think they figured we make 100 gpt?
Let's not be that generous.

	25-06-2003 02:52									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Off the top of my head, without access to the game, I'd say that throwing 200-300 gold at Lego now for Education in 6 turns plus a Banking <-> Astronomy deal after that is pretty good. DeepO or I could ask Vondrack about the idea of slowing the pace down a bit too and see what he thinks. If we do slow the pace a bit, perhaps our payment could be in installments (if the total is 300, perhaps 150 now and 150 in say, 5 turns) so that we have some leeway for rush projects too. -Arrian

Considering we are paying 200 for Chilvary, 300 for education seems in line.

I like the idea of installment (150 now, 150 later) payments. It cano only reinforce relations over time (provided that we all follow through on our respective ends). I agree that keeping some money in reserves are a good idea.

Mss

	25-06-2003 09:16									#263
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Chivalry is cost 32 in the editor, while Education is 44. So 275 for Education would be in line with what we're paying for Chivalry, although what we're paying for Chivalry is a bit on the high side if GoW can get similar or not too much lower amounts of gold from everyone else but Vox. As to what's fair, it's really hard to develop a concept of a "fair" price independent of the resale situation. The first-researcher cost for Education is about 1050 gold (I could get it as low as 1064, and an amount a little under 1050 failed), so I doubt that we want to go over 250 if Lego is going to do all the other selling. Speaking of which, does the plan for Banking/Astronomy include provisions to help make sure Lego doesn't end up with most of the sales for both techs? (I'm skeptical about the value of even 20-turn NDAs if the Bobians spend an extended period focusing on upgrading horsemen to knights, especially since they'd have to get Education before Banking/Astronomy.)

	25-06-2003 11:16									#264
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We are not paying 200 gold for chivalry. We sold feudalism for 200 gold as a hostage to get chivalry back.

We traded feudalism for chivalry. That is all. A good deal for us, but that is all it was.

	25-06-2003 12:32									#265
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We are not paying 200 gold for chivalry. We sold feudalism for 200 gold as a hostage to get chivalry back. We traded feudalism for chivalry. That is all. A good deal for us, but that is all it was.

It would have been a good deal, but it looks like GoW will end up getting the gold from selling both techs to others even though we paid about half the combined research cost. As it is, the only reason it wasn't a truly horrible deal is that Feudalism did us an enormous amount of good against Vox. Getting the gold from GoW when we needed it let us get Feudalism and do our needed military upgrades at the same time, so the value of that gold was totally out of proportion to its quantity.

	25-06-2003 13:08									#266
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okay, so 275 for Edu would be roughly in line with Feudalism, even if it may be on the high side. Further, we'd like 40-50 for our WM. Further, a discount on the difference between astro and banking seems okay... so in total, would it be a good idea to go with the 200 gold + WM now (or in installments), including the future deal ?

All techs will come with 20-turn NDAs (see last message). And IMO this is not a bad thing.

Oh, Lego can't have an idea how much commerce we make, but knows it's better then theirs. But, they also can't have an idea on how large our military is... I doubt it that they know we are paying 100 gpt in upkeep. In total these two effects cancel out, so their guess of ~80 gpt left could come close (if they guessed that)... They also know we asked them 200 for Feud, and will expect a proposal around the same amount.

I'm still for it, the deal can certainly strengthen our relation with Lego (which remain the most stable partner, as we have no idea what will happen to Bob), it will get us to unis faster, we can start doing our research faster, and we set a precedent of a fair trade for techs.

Aeson: I support the idea of fixing etas on future techs, however 25 turns for Copernicus might be a bit too much. We still need to be faster then other teams can be on 40-turn research, and we can't stall too much or Lego will know what's going on. But, I think this is a good topic to discuss in a future chat with Lego, it has many advantages, one of which is less friction between the two teams doing most of the research.

DeepO

	25-06-2003 13:10									#267
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I still don't understand why you are so willing to give Lego so much gold for the tech: traing is not just about production costs (which seems like all we're interested in) but supply and demand as well...

In this case, Lego probably does NOT expect much from this- otherwise why say: "half of your gpt minus 40-50 gold". Again, offering 250 gold is as saying: "we earn 100gpt". I hardly believe Lego thinks so highly of us...

It doesn't look like anyone is listening to me, but how many times other teams used the: "we don't have so much gold" plea/case in order to get us to lower prices?

Why can't we do the same, let us at least TRY, explain to them our gpt is not in the sky, instead of being so eager to make it "fair" for Lego. If it doesn't work- we can negotiate and offer more, as it doesn't seem anyone here has a problem with sparing large anounts of gold.

Don't forget Lego are our main competitor now, and vice-versa: all that crap about "we don't want Bob to grow strong"- that's really convincing, given the not-so-long-ago "we don't want the GS to grow strong" expressions.

Once again, Lego didn't hesitate to bargain for what they thought of a better price before, even when it was downright insulting (like renegotiating after it seemed we agreed on a trade). I'm not saying we should do that- just explain our difficluties, offer them LESS than what we believe is "fair", because It looks like they are not expecting that much.
If that doesn't work, we can always pay more, and I doubt Lego would blow up the negotiations for a tech Bobians won't pay much for in the near future...

	25-06-2003 13:16									#268
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Zeit, is it really such a bad deal in your eyes? I was fearing Lego wouldn't go for it... 250 is less then 25% of the beaker cost, plus there is the difference in cost between astro and banking we wouldn't need to pay. In comparison with Feudalism, we get a discount of some 60 gold on the price... and we sell our WM, which they otherwise also could get from any of the Bobian civs.

I agree we shouldn't support our biggest competitor too much, but right now we need some kind of ally, or we're toast.

One point though: I consider the price discussed here the furthest we would go, I would rather offer them 180 gold +WM, and see if they accept.

BTW, anybody know the exact difference between astro and banking by heart?

DeepO

	25-06-2003 14:28									#269
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quote: One point though: I consider the price discussed here the furthest we would go, I would rather offer them 180 gold +WM, and see if they accept.

DeepO, It seems that we agree

Like you, I don't think its a bad deal at all- on the contrary, its quite a good one considering Astro and Banking. Taking the "upper limit" approach as you suggested is good for me. On that note: you certainly managed to get them to "pay" for the WM double or more our lower limit price for it- Good job!

quote: I agree we shouldn't support our biggest competitor too much, but right now we need some kind of ally, or we're toast.

It seems that we're not the only ones looking for a short term (at least) ally. Lego has been somewhat "too" enthusiatic in our chat, and the following correspondence. I bet its not just DeepO's remarkable diplomatic efforts that got them to offer continuous tech deals and fairly good prices. Finnaly we have some common interest (or so it seems) with the blockheads. Will this be the beggining of a new friendship?
As cruel as it may sound- this could be our chance strike at them, and strike hard...

	25-06-2003 15:55									#270
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Okay, so can I suggest it to them? (probably in about 5 hours, after work)

DeepO