22-03-2003 07:10									#91
	Got spare money?

OK, good news. First, the chatlog:

quote: Session Start: Fri Mar 21 23:50:43 2003 Session Ident: Togas Session Ident: Togas (~tom_ogas@209-78-90-10.co.tulare.ca.us) Togas: what's the news? vondrack: I will ask few questions vondrack: you may choose to answer, you may choose to not answer vondrack: it is up to you, but it would help me if you could answer vondrack: are you researching Monarchy? Togas: We're working on Monarchy vondrack: How many turns to completion? Togas: hard to say vondrack: it would be enough to give the number reported by the game vondrack: I do not need an exact figure Togas: aprox 21 vondrack: ok, thanks... now, the news vondrack: we were sort of "saving" two goody huts for "later times" Togas: you guys are too lucky vondrack: oh, yes, definitely vondrack: popping them only after making contact and catching up tech-wise vondrack: guess what, the second one gave us Monarchy Togas: you're kidding me. vondrack: nope Togas: that really sucks for us. vondrack: maybe not vondrack: I am here to propose a deal you might like vondrack: it should benefit both of us vondrack: let me address some concerns of ours first vondrack: you will better understand the deal once I propose it vondrack: 1) vondrack: Lego is lucky vondrack: TOO lucky vondrack: we do not really want to go around and tell everyone vondrack: it would be quite likely that others would develop a negative attitude towards us Togas: an envious attitude vondrack: yep, envy vondrack: or at least, felt like "lucky bastards, they will see in the future" vondrack: 2) vondrack: we DO wish to honour our pre-game treaty vondrack: even if you might thought otherwise vondrack: we do not want to mess with your plans vondrack: trading Monarchy around would help us little and harm you much vondrack: SO: vondrack: we would prefer if it never became known we popped Monarchy out of a hut vondrack: that said, we see no reason to simple throw the lucky pop away... vondrack: we would thus like to make a deal that would result in YOU marketing Monarchy vondrack: however you see fit, giving us gold in exchange vondrack: I will now present the deal proposal Togas: go ahead vondrack: though there is one "glitch" I will address afterwards vondrack: keep in mind, this is a proposal to start from, not an ultimatum Togas: understood vondrack: what you told me about you research is approximately what we though it would be like vondrack: actually, we thought it would be little bit better, but nevermind vondrack: I will go with the original figures vondrack: we would be willing to sell you Monarchy for 300 gold, exclusive resale rights included (hang on, there is more to it!) vondrack: the timeline would be as follows: vondrack: 1) as soon as you are able to pay 150 gold, we sell Monarchy to you vondrack: 2) you would agree not to switch to Monarchy till a certain turn (82?) - I will explain later, why vondrack: 3) as soon as you would be able to pay the rest (150 gold), you would be able to trade Monarchy around at will vondrack: now, why "2)" vondrack: 'cause that's what I assume you will like least vondrack: there is a certain general knowledge about how fast this or that team can research vondrack: we actually based our own estimate of your research output vondrack: or various bits of info collected from different sources vondrack: and it was more or less sufficiently accurate vondrack: that means, if we could have done it, everybody can vondrack: if you switched to Monarchy too early, others would find out vondrack: from the F3 screen (mil adv) Togas: other would find out we either got it from someone or got it from a goodie hut vondrack: yep exactly vondrack: and the only team having the chance to pop huts is Lego, that's widely known vondrack: the only other teams even remotely able to research it on their own vondrack: would be perhaps GS (known to research Rep) vondrack: and MAYBE GoW (no idea about how they are doing) vondrack: but those are known to research Construction Togas: GoW found an island off their coast w/ goodie huts vondrack: hmmm... it was an island off OUR coast vondrack: anyway, even if others never find out FOR SURE Togas: You guys sure are secretive vondrack: we (and you) would be likely to be suspected, I think vondrack: now, if you switch to Monarchy not immediately now, but in a few turns vondrack: you will: vondrack: 1) confuse others as to your actual research power vondrack: 2) stir little or no suspicions vondrack: note, please, that you will STILL be in Monarchy sooner than if researching it on your own vondrack: since what I am talking about is like just a couple of turns vondrack: if it's turn 76 now Togas: @6 turns vondrack: something like that, yes vondrack: so, it should not be a big deal, I hope Togas: This is an interesting proposal, indeed Togas: Your nation is extremely fortunate and very powerful. Togas: Spain has been in a decline, this is our 2nd tech in a row that we've been beaten to by Goodie Huts vondrack: ) vondrack: don't worry vondrack: no more goodie huts Togas: our budget is in dissary due to our excessive military expendatures Togas: which is why our research has slowed down vondrack: the reason for being this "secretive" vondrack: is that even though we do want to help you, guys, BIG TIME with this vondrack: we do not want other teams (GoW, ND) know vondrack: since we are keen on maintaining good relations with all of them for the time being Togas: and we did not receive a bounty of cash from Lux, nor have we been as active traders as GoW, so our coffers are not very full vondrack: that should not be a big problem (the treasury) vondrack: since you will have to shut down your research anyway vondrack: no techs to research Togas: 300g is an impossible feat for Spain vondrack: we would be willing to work on a payment schedule Togas: and this tech won't be marketable to anyone other than GoW Togas: Maybe ND, but we're afraid to give it to them. Togas: everyone else will go Republic vondrack: see, if you had to research it on your own, it would have cost you more than 300 gold... vondrack: effectively vondrack: and we do not ask for the money NOW vondrack: as I said, we would be willing to split the payment into two or more parts Togas: it's not like we have the money, though Togas: I'm serious. I'd like to get Monarchy from you. 20 turns off is a great deal for us vondrack: possibly postponing a significant portion until after you go into Monarchy vondrack: I know, 20 turns @ about 20 gold... probably more vondrack: nm vondrack: if you need to make it 100+200, or 100+100+100... whatever vondrack: we want to accomodate you Togas: We won't be able to buy Construction or Currency vondrack: you will be able to buy Construction or Currency vondrack: I mean, trust me, I guarantee it Togas: Maybe it's best that you guys just sit on it for a while. Togas: I'd like to change governments, but the cost would kill my nation's economy. vondrack: well, that's what I was basically suggesting vondrack: since there would be 6 turns before you'd go into Monarchy anyway vondrack: if you shut down your research now and stockpile money vondrack: you will easily be able to make the first payment on turn 82 Togas: Let me ask my experts to see what they think... hold on. Togas: I've got ET online. He's going to check the #s for me. Togas: Explain about Construction & Currency Togas: I'm worried. Seems like we're going to become a 2nd world nation soon if we have to keep buying all our tech vondrack: re: Curr & Constr... not yet... trust me, you will be able to get it vondrack: for the moment, forget about them, focus on the Monarchy deal Togas: What you have to understand is that we've never paid more than 40g for a tech. vondrack: Togas: tech values are lousey. 300g is like asking us to take out a 2nd mortgage Togas: I assume they'll go up at some point. Can't always stay this low vondrack: sure... and you have never been buying exclusive rights to a government tech vondrack: ... how much you paid for Monarchy exclusive last time? vondrack: j/k vondrack: plus, keep in mind that you will be able to switch to Monarch like 14 turns earlier Togas: Right now my experts are debating in the background vondrack: ok, let's give them time Togas: ET figures we can afford 10gpt and still be able to carry through our upgrade project. vondrack: 10gpt is 200g altogether... vondrack: Togas: I know. vondrack: you wanna save big time, right? vondrack: Togas: you're asking a rather poor nation to cough up an extremely large amount of money Togas: I'd LOVE to save big time, but that's not really my highest priority. Togas: 300g = 7.5 swordsmen. vondrack: well, what about this: vondrack: 10gpt + 50 gold on turn, say, 100 vondrack: would that be acceptable? vondrack: that's half-way, actually postponing the +50gold for a looong time Togas: let me find out... Togas: my people are considering it. The price is payable, it's just that we are staring down a future with no research of our own Togas: and that fact really bothers us. Togas: we are discussing this. vondrack: no research of your own? vondrack: like you would have no money to fund it? Togas: We'd adjust the slider into the 30-40 range for sci Togas: which is marginal, but not really worth it, so the guys are saying we may as well go 0% vondrack: yes Togas: and be forced to buy techs vondrack: is there any way to restructure the payment schedule to better suit your needs? Togas: the thing is, gold is what we need vondrack: I hope you should be doing better under Monarchy, commerce-wise vondrack: gold? what for? Togas: a little better, I'm sure. Togas: we have 9 warriors what want to be upgraded vondrack: I see Togas: and we pay extra gold each turn for upkeep, as we have too many mil units vondrack: yeah, that explains why your research slows down... vondrack: seems like you, guys, are getting ready for a war... Togas: we're getting prepared. ND attacked Lux with a stack of 6 Togas: that was a thousand years ago vondrack: I see Togas: We've kept up our military with theirs, mil advisor indicates we're equal Togas: but ansars appear with chivalry Togas: and Riders appear with chivalry Togas: we're getting ready for the Dark Ages of the Bob Continent vondrack: yes, that is wise, I guess Togas: Can you let us know, what are you guys researching now? vondrack: Currency Togas: You have construction? vondrack: yes vondrack: that was the first hut, before the Monarchy one vondrack: no need to comment Togas: :P :P :P Togas: hold on... Togas: How much are you guys going to charge us for Currency & Construction? vondrack: no gold? Togas: assuming we do this deal, we're going to be short of cash for any future deals. vondrack: what about gifting them to you on turn 83 (that's when we will have Currency) and getting your first medieval tech later in exchange? vondrack: I would suggest researching Engineering at 10%... Togas: Wait. You'd give them both to us? vondrack: in exchange for Engineering, yes Togas: let me toss this to the experts ... hold on Togas: My guys have a proposal vondrack: go ahead Togas: Can we use communication with Vox to lower the cost? vondrack: nope, sorry, we are getting it this turn from another team Togas: when would you have currency? vondrack: as I said, you would get it on turn 83, together with Construction Togas: Would our World Map lower the cost? vondrack: nope, sorry, no need for the map vondrack: not to sound too tough... vondrack: we already have the map of Bob vondrack: that's why we do not need it Togas: you guys are going to leave us in the dust. Togas: wow. vondrack: in the dust????? Togas: zoom past us vondrack: Togas! vondrack: I thought you would be happy about the deal... Togas: I am to some extent. Togas: I'm just coming to realize how my nation is falling behind, is all. Togas: not your fault vondrack: keep in mind, please, that this way, you will go medieval at the same time as everybody else, while otherwise, you would be stuck researching Monarchy for like 10 turns, missing on the "medieval research start" completely Togas: sure, we jump forward with everyone else, but we really just hover around the starting line. vondrack: better than nothing vondrack: btw, I would not worry about falling behind... you are going to gain quite a bit by the instantaneous gov change over us, e.g. Togas: not really vondrack: oh? Togas: our support drops from 4 free per city, to 2 free per city Togas: we make up for it when we build about 3-4 more cities vondrack: do you have just small cities? Togas: but we crawl through most of the 20 turns Togas: yes Togas: My guys tell me that Constr+Currency for Engineering is an even trade vondrack: yep, 36 for 36 Togas: I'm just trying to think if there's something else I can do... vondrack: we might be able to accomodate you on the cash flow Togas: how so? vondrack: well, we would like to get at least 250g for Monarchy vondrack: but we are flexible on when you'd pay the money vondrack: actually... at least... vondrack: I was instructed to ask for 300g vondrack: but I believe I would be able to explain that 250g is the most we can get vondrack: try coming up with your own proposal of a payment schedule Togas: I'm sure you can. Negotiations ... each side gives a little, you know. Togas: My guys suggested this: We give you 50g five turns after we stop paying you 10gpt Togas: So it's sort of like doing 10gpt for 25 turns. vondrack: hmmm... sounds doable, I think vondrack: it's like turn 102, right? vondrack: now it is 77 vondrack: you start paying on this turn, finish in turn 96 Togas: Now is 76, I think vondrack: 76 is gone vondrack: 77 being played Togas: let me check... Togas: we still have turn 76 Togas: 76 = 1100bc vondrack: that's impossible vondrack: we (Lego) have already played 76 vondrack: oh vondrack: 76 = 1100bc vondrack: then yes vondrack: it's 1100BC now vondrack: anyway, not a big deal vondrack: 50g 5 turns after blah blah blah is ok Togas: My guys are still debating the Constr + Currency for Eng trade Togas: and since that trade wouldn't happen for several turns, let me get back to you on it. vondrack: ok, np Togas: I'm leaning towards accepting it, but my #s guys have to do a review. vondrack: hmmm... wonder what they find out Togas: Probably that it's 36=36 Togas: vondrack: LoL vondrack: yes * Togas shrugs Togas: I told 'em I'd hold off on that trade for now Togas: anyhow, let's formalize.... vondrack: plus that thing with going medieval, not missing the start of medieval and such... vondrack: ok Togas: We give 10gpt to Legoland this turn Togas: You give Monarchy Togas: You agree not to give/sell/trade Monarchy to any other nations. Togas: we agree not to change governments until turn 82 Togas: We agree to pay you 50g five turns after our 10gpt runs out .... (turn 102?) vondrack: yep, that would be ok Togas: Oh, and ET wanted me to add this ... tell me if this is OK: vondrack: yes? Togas: If any nations change government prior to turn 82, the "turn 82 clause" is voided ... meaning we can change early. vondrack: If any nations change government TO MONARCHY prior to turn 82, the "turn 82 clause" is voided. vondrack: but that will not happen Togas: Right. he was concerned mostly about republic vondrack: remember why we asked for the clause vondrack: it was not to slow you down, but sort of cover the deal Togas: I understand, but we're worried about slowing down too much. Togas: Do you know if GS will finish Republic within the next 10 turns? vondrack: I do not think I am at liberty to tell you, sorry. Togas: Do you guys have a trade for Republic worked out? vondrack: not finalized yet, but working on it Togas: Will you be changing to Republic within the next 10 turns? vondrack: no Togas: ... hold on. Togas: OK, I think I've calmed the natives vondrack: natives? Togas: As a part of this deal, we both agree it will remain utterly confidential Togas: natives = spaniards vondrack: of course (re: confidential) Togas: We will tell no one about any of this, nor will Legoland reveal this deal to anyone vondrack: TOP SECRET vondrack: yes, agreed Togas: AND we will basically agree to lie, say that we researched Monarchy vondrack: do you have to keep saying this? vondrack: Togas: Togas: Just want to make it clear. We're willing to agree. vondrack: I mean, Togas... you, the Master of the Words... vondrack: yep, ok Togas: OK, I'm going to authorize my guys to send 10gpt to you this turn. vondrack: will you send a written treaty or shall I? Togas: If you would send it, I'd be grateful, I'm almost done at the office and need to head home in 30 mins. vondrack: ok, I will send it within an hour or two vondrack: hopefully, it is simple enough to put together vondrack: even for me Togas: Yes. You can just cut & paste from this chat log vondrack: ok Togas: include the confidentiality portion vondrack: yep Togas: and we will get back to you about the other trade in a day or two. vondrack: ok, fine * Togas whew! * vondrack whew, too!

	22-03-2003 07:11									#92
	Increase the size of your Attachments

And this was just a small "aftertalk":

quote: * Togas whew! * vondrack whew, too! vondrack: better than last time Togas: it tends to work out that way, it seems vondrack: Togas: The more you talk, the more confortable you get. Less friction, you know. vondrack: weeeelll... sometimes, just the contrary... ) Togas: perhaps Togas: But in my experience in this PBEM game, the longer the game goes, the less tense negotiations have become vondrack: 'cause teams start to know what to expect from other teams... Togas: in the beginning we ranted back & forth with GoW. We've come full circle, now we just chitchat and small talk and "oh by the way" work out deals. vondrack: striking deals is easier, when both parties trust each other Togas: exactly vondrack: ok Togas: take care. Chat with you later vondrack: ok, take care vondrack: bye Togas: bye

	22-03-2003 07:16									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Now, quick comments:

1) I forgot to "postpone" giving them Mon - will try to fix it before playing this turn (hope that Togas will show up)
2) we get 250g, ready to be used just shortly after we jump into Republic
3) we may even get Engineering for Curr+Constr (that just crossed my mind and sounded fine, so I tried it - hope it was a good idea...), if RPers agree... and they know, they have very little chance to not agree...

4) RPers are obviously "losing breath" because of building up military; good for us
5) their research is nothing we should fear
6) they will be stuck in Monarchy for quite some time because of their huge military

I will work on the treaty proposal now.

	22-03-2003 08:22									#94
	Put an end to popups!

OK, after talking to Togas briefly again, we agreed upon the following treaty:

quote: > Lego-RP Monarchy Trade Agreement of 1100BC > > Hereby, the parties involved, Legoland and Roleplayers, agree upon the > following: > > 1) Legoland agrees to not sell, trade, or gift Monarchy to any other > team, but Roleplayers only. > > 2) Roleplayers agree to start paying 10 gold per turn on Turn 77 > (1100BC) and keep doing so for the total of 20 consecutive turns > (paying 200 gold total in this way). > > 3) Legoland agrees to gift ("offer"+"accept") the technology of > Monarchy to Roleplayers on Turn 81 (1000BC), so that Roleplayers > receive it and can use it in whatever way they see fit from Turn 82 > (975BC) onwards. > > 4) Roleplayers agree to pay an additional sum of 50 gold to Legoland > on Turn 102. > > 5) Both parties agree to keep this trade agreement top secret, never > revealing any details to a third party. > > We agree to this treaty. > On behalf of Legoland: vondrack, The President On behalf of Spain: Togas, Ruler of Spain

Gentlemen, I believe we can be most satisfied.

	22-03-2003 13:35									#95
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good work, Radek! We got exactly what we wanted to They almost paid us 300

I'm a little concerned that their switch to Monarchy will be too early compared to what others may believe about the RP's research potential, but maybe late enough to avoid suspicions toward us.

On a sidenote, it seems like there is a massive military buil-up on Bob. Hopefully there will be a war between them, and no one will try to land on Legos. Nevertheless, we are doing financially great, so besides full speed rexing we need to focus on the military, too.

	23-03-2003 06:59									#96
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Idea: Why not Feudalism and some gold from RPers, instead of engineering?

We don't need Feudalism all that much, so if RPers are slow researching it, no trouble. We, on the other hand, can focus on either Engineering (which we might be able to whore around) or Theology for Sistine's. RPers can focus on getting Pikemen sooner, which I'm sure they'll want since they fear an Ansar and/or Rider rush.

What do you think? Should we even offer this deal? Even though it demands yet more gold from the RPers, it should also be good for them in that they get Pikemen sooner. Of course, that would make them more powerful, so...

	23-03-2003 12:07									#97
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Idea: Why not Feudalism and some gold from RPers, instead of engineering? We don't need Feudalism all that much, so if RPers are slow researching it, no trouble. We, on the other hand, can focus on either Engineering (which we might be able to whore around) or Theology for Sistine's. RPers can focus on getting Pikemen sooner, which I'm sure they'll want since they fear an Ansar and/or Rider rush. What do you think? Should we even offer this deal? Even though it demands yet more gold from the RPers, it should also be good for them in that they get Pikemen sooner. Of course, that would make them more powerful, so...

The reason for asking for Engineering is that we have already - in a chat - generally agreed upon cooperation with GS regarding the research of Theology/Education and Feudalism/Chivalry... Feudalism will be, no doubt researched either by us or by them.

That's why I asked RPers for Engineering.

	25-03-2003 10:10									#98
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Spain- Tech Trading In the name of Togas, the Magnificant Bringer of Light to The Unenlightened, Ruler of Spain: Recent discussions about a possible Lego Construction\Currency for Spanish Engineering trade have led our monarch to wonder which of the other two technologies Legoland would plan on aquiring, Feudalism, or Monotheism? Thud Quixote, Ambassador to Legoland.

We should hadle this carefully then maybe trying to see how far our cooperation will go.

	25-03-2003 11:21									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I have noticed in the public forum that the RPers seem least thrilled about the current war. With that said, they may prove the most stable trading partners of the Bobian civs. GoW and ND both seem bent on conquest, and probably won't have much to trade in the long run other than what they beat out of Vox.

	25-03-2003 15:13									#100
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Not sure what they mean by "acquiring"? Do they mean what we intend to research? If yes, tell them we'll most probably research along the "upper" part of the techtree, as Feudalism is of low value to us ATM. That should be enough. As we do not have a signed deal for Monotheism yet, there is no need to elaborate on that.

So, my answer would be:

Legoland intends to research along the "Education" branch of the techtree, having currently little interest in the technology of Feudalism.

	30-03-2003 06:39									#101
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: El tratado de defensa Hispano - Legolandico / Legoland - Spain Mutual Protection Treaty Article I Defenition of the territory The territory of Spain is defined as all land inside Spain's cultural borders and all lands south of Spain's northermost city. The territory of Legoland is defined as all land on Legos Island. Article II Redefinition of the territory Either party may propose to redefine their national territory and the change shall be effective upon the agreement of the other party. The definition of the territory of both parties may be changed if: New territories will be found, under the condition that these new territories are fully explored and unsettled by any other nation; New settlements, that are outside of the land defined in Article I, are founded; New territory, that is outside of the land defined in Article I, is accuired in any way; Territory, that is part of the land defined in Article I, is lost in any way. Article III Causes that activate the alliance If another nation settles on the land that is defined in Article I, while the party that claims this land has informed an official of the settling nation, that they claim those lands, the other party is supposed to declare war on the settling nation, if the party that claims these land requests this, unless the alliance can persuade the settling nation from either evacuating or handing the settlement over to the alliance member whose territory is occupied, or retreat in any other way. If any violation of the territorial integrity of the territory of either party, as defined in Article I, is being conducted, the other party is supposed to declare war on the atacking nation, if the attacked party requests this. Article IV Non-settlement ageement Neither party shall settle in the territoriy that the other party has claimed to be his as stated in Article I. Article V Duration of the Treaty The Treaty shall have a lenth of 30 turns. It shall be effective from 900 BC (turn nr. 84) and expire in 270 BC(on turn nr. 114). The Treaty can after this period be extended for an amount of turns that is about to be defined by the parties. The Treaty can only be extended upon the agreement of the both parties. Article VI Lapse of the Treaty This Treaty will immediately lapse if one of the parties does not adhere to the terms in this Treaty. Article VII Alterations on the Treaty Any statement in the Treaty can be altered, save for the Duration of the Treaty, as stated in Article V, the way of aid that the parties have agreed to provide in case the alliance is being activated, as stated in Article III and the lapse of the Treaty as stated in Article VI, upon the agreement of the both parties. I hereby assent with this Treaty and the terms in it. Augusto Togas, High King of Spain.

There are some things that apeare left out I think by mistake but we'll need to and them to the reply draft and I want to know what you want on the treaty or if you'd take it now?

	30-03-2003 06:53									#102
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Noticed that no where does it say that the offended civ whose territory is threatened has to declare war - suggest the following be altered:

If another nation settles on the land that is defined in Article I, while the party that claims this land has informed an official of the settling nation, that they claim those lands, both the offended party and the other party in the treaty will declare war on the settling nation, if the party that claims these land requests this, unless the alliance can persuade the settling nation from either evacuating or handing the settlement over to the alliance member whose territory is occupied, or retreat in any other way.

If any violation of the territorial integrity of the territory of either party, as defined in Article I, is being conducted, both parties will declare war on the atacking nation, if the attacked party requests this.

Also might want the following clause added:

Article VIII
Settlement of any war

Since both parties will declare war at the exact same time on any invading party, both parties should commit themselves to end the war at the same time. No separate peace treaties should be made.

	30-03-2003 14:49									#103
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

"The territory of Spain is defined as all land inside Spain's cultural borders and all lands south of Spain's northermost city." ... on the continent named Bob.

Also we could use the "Legos continent" term. It isn't an island, so using this term could void the treaty. (besides everybody knows that it is a continent; the only thing they don't know is how big it is).

Last edited by Tiberius on 30-03-2003 at 14:56

	31-03-2003 20:27									#104
	Increase the size of your Attachments

El tratado de defensa Hispano - Legolandico / Legoland - Spain Mutual Protection Treaty

Article I
Defenition of the territory

The territory of Spain is defined as all land inside Spain's cultural borders and all lands on the continent named Bob south of the Spanish city of Saragossa (as of Turn 84).

The territory of Legoland is defined as all land on Legos Major & Legos Minor, that is all land reachable by foot units using no vessels from Legopolis, the capital city of Legoland (as of Turn 84).




Article II
Redefinition of the territory

Either party may propose to redefine their national territory and the change shall be effective upon the agreement of the other party.

The definition of the territory of both parties may be changed if:

New territories will be found, under the condition that these new territories are fully explored and unsettled by any other nation;

New settlements, that are outside of the land defined in Article I, are founded;

New territory, that is outside of the land defined in Article I, is accuired in any way;

Territory, that is part of the land defined in Article I, is lost in any way.


Article III
Causes that activate the alliance


If another nation settles on the land that is defined in Article I, while the party that claims this land has informed an official of the settling nation, that they claim those lands, both the offended party and the other party in the treaty will declare war on the settling nation, if the party that claims these land requests this, unless the alliance can persuade the settling nation from either evacuating or handing the settlement over to the alliance member whose territory is occupied, or retreat in any other way.


If any violation of the territorial integrity of the territory of either party, as defined in Article I, is being conducted, both parties will declare war on the atacking nation, if the attacked party requests this.



Article IV
Non-settlement & Non-agression ageement

Neither party shall settle in the territoriy that the other party has claimed to be his as stated in Article I. Also neither party shall declae war on the other.



Article V
Duration of the Treaty

The Treaty shall have a lenth of 20 turns. It shall be effective from 900 BC (turn nr. 84) and expire in 270 BC(on turn nr. 114).

The Treaty can after this period be extended for an amount of turns that is about to be defined by the parties.

The Treaty can only be extended upon the agreement of the both parties.



Article VI
Lapse of the Treaty

This Treaty will immediately lapse if one of the parties does not adhere to the terms in this Treaty.



Article VII
Alterations on the Treaty

Any statement in the Treaty can be altered, save for the Duration of the Treaty, as stated in Article V, the way of aid that the parties have agreed to provide in case the alliance is being activated, as stated in Article III and the lapse of the Treaty as stated in Article VI, upon the agreement of the both parties.



Article VIII
Settlement of any war

Since both parties will declare war at the exact same time on any invading party, both parties will commit themselves to end the war at the same time. No separate peace treaties shall be made.





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Tell me what you think and if I can send this new draft to RP.

Last edited by Nimitz on 04-04-2003 at 22:06

	31-03-2003 21:46									#105
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Looks pretty solid Nimitz. Nice to have a firm agreement on something for once.

	31-03-2003 23:18									#106
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Well, before sending it: could somebody take a look on the Bob map? (I don't have it here) Is there any chance that ND could settle somewhere on the central/eastern part of Bob, south from RP's northernmost city ? What I want to know actually: how north is RP's northernmost city in comparison with ND?

One more thing: 30 turns seem too much for me. I'd rather vote for 20. Anyway, we should vote on this before sending it (on the treaty, not on the period)

Btw, is this treaty draft their or our proposal/idea ?

	31-03-2003 23:52									#107
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this is a draft with changes we've made I would send it without approval for them to what they need and send it back to us to approve.

	01-04-2003 00:06									#108
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Yes, but when we send it for them to see what they are saying about our changes, it is like saying "OK, we want it, but slightly modified". So I'd like to hear from more people that we actually need this or not?

The RP seem to be very sneaky in dealing with this kind of treaties (see their MPP with Lux).

I forgot to say that this document should contain also an article about non agression between our two teams. The document doesn't say that they cannot declare war to or attack Legoland.

	01-04-2003 01:02									#109
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OK, my comments:

Article I
1a) Northernmost Spanish city? As of which turn? Do they mean Saragossa? Or another city? They can easily claim ALL of Bob's territory by plopping a Spanish city on the Northern coast of their landmass...

I suggest rephrasing as follows:

The territory of Spain is defined as all land inside Spain's cultural borders and all lands on the continent named Bob south of the Spanish city of Saragossa (as of Turn 84).

The territory of Legoland is defined as all land on Legos Major & Legos Minor, that is all land reachable by foot units using no vessels from Legopolis, the capital city of Legoland (as of Turn 84).

Article V
Shorten the duration to 20 turns (25 turns max).

Article VII
Native speakers, do you understand what that article says? Me not really...

Other than that, I find nothing really controversial in this treaty. What I find really funny is that all we have to do to fulfil the terms is to declare war on anyone attacking RPers... there is absolutely nothing about actually helping them... and the same goes the other way round. So, in my eyes, this is just pure crap. But if it makes RPers happy, fine, let them have such a treaty.

	01-04-2003 01:39									#110
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack OK, my comments: Article VII Native speakers, do you understand what that article says? Me not really...

That part is chinese for me, too

	01-04-2003 01:45									#111
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quote: Article VII Alterations on the Treaty Any statement in the Treaty can be altered, save for the Duration of the Treaty, as stated in Article V, the way of aid that the parties have agreed to provide in case the alliance is being activated, as stated in Article III and the lapse of the Treaty as stated in Article VI, upon the agreement of the both parties.

In simple speak: Anything in the treaty can be changed if both sides agree, except for the duration, the the conditions under which the treaty is activated, and what would cause the treaty to lapse. So, basically, all of the important point are unchangeable once signed, but everything else can be negotiated

	01-04-2003 01:50									#112
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well we can change our land.

	01-04-2003 06:59									#113
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Well, this IS a semi-serious treaty even if we don't have to aid the RPers or vice versa; war precludes trades of any kind (except for anything that can be traded out of game, like maps).

	04-04-2003 22:23									#114
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In the name of His Majesty, King Togas I, Monarch of the Spanish Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm:

King Togas wishes to know the lay of Legoland. Without even knowing where you are, it would be difficult to assist in defending you against any aggression by those who hunger for more land. It is thus the proposal of His Majesty that, in order to give meaning to our recently signed Defence Pact, Legoland and Spain trade maps. HRM Togas is willing also to add a small sum of gold to the deal to make it worthwhile to the People of Lego.

It is also the wish of His Royal Majesty that, in the interest of furthering our good relations, Spain sell Monotheism to Legoland. In return, we ask for gold, about 200g, or 10gp. This price is of course negotiable if you feel that you cannot afford this.

Lord Thud Quixote, Ambassador to Legoland

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What a funny proposal that they would think we would even trade maps.

	04-04-2003 22:30									#115
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Well we knew that this was coming...

Hmm, perhaps an alternative is to give an outline of our coastline in the east only and no details of the interior or our west?

And LOL - did nobody tell the RPers that we already have Monotheism?

	04-04-2003 23:27									#116
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Jesus Christ, this is just plain ridiculous...

Will someone bother to put together at least mildly polite response telling them we have absolutely no need for Monotheism (especially for the "most favoured nation" price of 200 gold) and that we will never ever trade our world map?

My God... they would even be "willing to add a small sum". What the hell this Togas guy thinks?

If this is not offending then I really don't know.

I mean - just a have a look at the ingame map. Their city placement is just woeful... their are totally locked in a defensive posture combined with land greed. All they are planning for is a defensive war with their Northern neighbours, trying to keep their chances of fully settling the Southern part of Bob. They may be right about what may be coming, but... how the hell they dare to pose the way they do then? They would hardly be willing/able to actually assist us in any way... it would be us having to assist them...

Also, may I express my surprise about seeing Togas to talk about a "recently signed Defense Pact"? I know nothing about having a Defense Pact signed with RPers... All I know of is we have been negotiating one...

Last edited by vondrack on 05-04-2003 at 00:20

	04-04-2003 23:32									#117
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He signed we didn't I made a point of that when I sent the treaty draft out this morning.

	04-04-2003 23:34									#118
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I 100% absolutely vote NO to giving RPers our map. They are absolutely untrustworthy, and I don't give a flying f**k if Togas gets all pissy about us not being open with our dear, trusted neighbors. I trust them about as far as I can throw them. And since they as a computer game team are a non-phsyical entity, I don't think I could throw them very far at all.

Uh, so, yeah... rant over, I guess After the whole Vox c+c thing, our relationship with RPers means very little to me, as it clearly does to them, as well. We can be friendly with them, but no more "favored nation" crap.

	05-04-2003 00:54									#119
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quote: We can be friendly with them, but no more "favored nation" crap.

Absolutely agree.
"Most favorite nation?" Monotheism for 200 gold? What kind of idiots they think we are? And what kind of idiot made actually this proposal, without checking at least the F4 screen to see if it's possible?

No way to trade our maps. No way. Even if it would be remotely possible that we ever trade our world map, the RP would be certainly amongt the last teams I would hand it.

Besides, if we traded it with RP, we should also trade it with the GoW (active clause from our first treaty with the GoW).

Also what is this crap about our "recently signed Defence Pact" ??! I want to be sure that Togas knows that it is only a draft and not a treaty. I didn't vote any treaty, that's for sure, and this one won't go through without a proper vote. I'm not even sure that I will vote it. It is so easy to provoke the ND into a war.

	07-04-2003 06:22									#120
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Latest update from the treaty negotiations with RP , and this is a deal-breaker for sure - it is basically a demand:

[Nimitz] the request/demand of RP
[Sharpe] oh?
[vondrack] oh?
[vondrack] hehe
[Nimitz] Nimitz,
[Nimitz] Critics have been posted on our agreement. In the Thane Council, the Spanish nobles have requested the King to trade worldmaps. This is because they want to know what land they have to defend in case they need to show their loyalty to the King when he decides to aid Legoland in a war against the countries of the alliance.
[Nimitz] It was also stated that Legoland might perhaps be interested to know what land they need to defend in case Spain is under attack.
[Nimitz] King Togas realized that the critics are right and requests you though me if you want to trade worldmaps.
[Nimitz] He has let me know that he might not approve it without having a map of Legoland. So I humbly ask you not to reject this request.