05-03-2003 12:42									#31
	Put an end to popups!

Treacherous.

Other than that, I have nothing to add/change. Unless others come up with something today, go ahead and PM GoW with this fine, almost worthless message...

	05-03-2003 14:21									#32
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Fantastic ZargonX, you are a great loss to the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office We conquered a quarter of the world with messages such as that

	05-03-2003 18:47									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

OK, more follow-up info:

Sending my own personal PBEM savegame to Hot_Enamel this morning, I added the following paragraph:

quote: BTW, following GhenghisFarb's persuasive PM stating you could see our continent in the PtWDG (which we considered 99% impossible), we went through all of our past savegames and found out one we apparently did not pay attention enough to - many many turns ago, there was a corner of a shrouded tile with a very little bit of lighter, perhaps coastal waters in it, which we oversought at that time). We are quite certain (99% that it is not Bob, most probably just a small island mid-way, but we are sailing there to find out. Our galley will be there in no time (1-2 turns) and we will get back to you once we know more. It now seems likely we could make contact with you shortly.

And this is Hot_Enamel's response:

quote: GF was very excited when I posted our chat session on our forum. He has not provided our team with a copy of the PM he has sent you yet. We are very keen on meeting up with you, and will structure a deal which will be very profitable to us both. GF has something in mind obviously, and I dont want to steal his thunder. Speak to you soon Hot_Enamel

Interesting that their leader makes us an official trade proposal without even letting his teammates know what it's about...

	05-03-2003 18:54									#34
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I hope this won't give you ideas, Radek

	06-03-2003 07:48									#35
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Well I had a chat with Togas I think you'll find it very intresting. So I'll post it.

quote: Session Start: Wed Mar 05 19:50:21 2003 Session Ident: Togas Chat with Togas Waiting for acknowledgement... DCC Chat connection established - [19:50] hello [19:50] hey [19:50] now you want that news [19:51] yes [19:52] well we found a way to get contact faster [19:52] how? [19:53] we have found an island in between us and your continent [19:53] up north [19:53] hmmm [19:53] you know, GoW said something to us about that island [19:54] but would that be faster? Going north? [19:54] it should cut the time to 6 or 7 turns [19:54] from now? [19:54] well not to you but we could get to GoW [19:54] in that time [19:54] ah. Damn. They'll probably try to sell us contact with you guys [19:55] right [19:55] that will though get contact with us faster [19:55] depends on how much they charge us ... and if they want to sell it at all [19:55] they might just try to keep you to themselves [19:56] they can't if they wont sell some one else will [19:56] ND will most likely spot the ship [19:57] why is that? [19:57] because we'll be landing near old lux terr [19:58] on our eastern shore? [19:58] yes [19:58] ??? [19:58] so you guys will probably find vox very soon, right? [19:58] ok whats wrong now [19:58] wait [19:58] west shore [19:59] ok. good. [19:59] our east your west [19:59] yes [19:59] it can get confusing [19:59] Let us know when you're close. We could send a warrior up the coast to try to meet you sooner [20:00] we'll we're on the way now [20:00] so I'd have one waitint [20:00] waiting [20:00] afk sec [20:00] ok [20:03] back [20:04] let us know when you've contacted GoW [20:04] so you like the latest news [20:04] I think this is pretty good news [20:04] we thought it would go over well [20:04] I'd rather you not contact GoW first, though ... [20:04] well that can't be helped [20:05] anyhow, when we do get contact, what shall we trade? [20:06] can you wait on MM till we get contact [20:06] or have you made a deal already [20:07] probably not. I told adaMada to make a deal with GoW on Monday and he's already written them about it [20:07] well to bad [20:07] do you have anything else? [20:07] we might be able to do else wise if we knew what you got [20:08] latest [20:08] hasn't changed since last time, I'm afraid. [20:09] We would like to aquire currency and construction, but I think ND is working one of those [20:09] ok well then if you wait on for us then we may have a trade [20:09] not on those techs [20:09] on some thing else [20:10] we may have a tech you you don't when we meet [20:11] well, if we meet soon ... 6-8 turns, will you have anything new? [20:12] if things don't change yes [20:12] yes? you will have something new? [20:12] I mean if its not traded for be for we meet [20:12] some may get it [20:13] I'm confused. What technology do you have? [20:14] I'm not aloud to say at this moment [20:15] the pres needs to ok the situation first [20:16] ... I don't see how it's fair that I tell you what tech we have, but you can't tell me what techs you have [20:16] but needless to say we will have a tech you need if it is not discovered over there first [20:17] its not my choise [20:18] you need to have a serious talk with your leaders [20:18] we are supposed to be at least trying to work together on technology [20:19] they want to wait till we meet no idea why [20:20] maybe they don't want to be stuck with a bad deal [20:20] they are this way to all [20:20] I understand that, but there's no reason to be secretive about what techs you have and don't have [20:21] ya well I'll be FAm soon so maybe [20:21] good. Betahound is always way too paranoid. With the ISDG in particular [20:22] how [20:22] putting locks and passwords and super security on everything [20:22] hes Vox FAM [20:22] he wouldn't give the save game to anyone in the ISDG unless you promised not to use it improperly [20:22] OH, I mean vondrack. Sorry [20:23] uhhuh [20:23] hes not that way with legoland [20:23] I don't know why he's like that in ISDG at all [20:24] maybe the way people act in the PtW-DG [20:24] hard to say. The PtW-DG still lacks any real participation from the masses [20:24] might change when we start getting contact, though [20:25] well there have been some early problem with the rules [20:26] some tried stuff they should not of [20:26] not in lego land but [20:27] but anyhow, back to this game, the Legolanders seem to see us as a threat for some reason, and it bothers me. We are not a threat to Legoland. We aren't going to invade you guys ever, we don't think you're going to attack us ... there's no reason for any hostility [20:28] ND has got us worried [20:28] we gave you guys Carthage and hoped that you'd help us out a little later on in the game, though. [20:28] we will in the ways we can [20:28] that's one thing that's been on our mind ... how do we get contact with Legoland so that we can start using our alliance. [20:29] well that is solved [20:29] we'll deal with ND. They're our threat and GoW's threat. We're trying to solve it diplomaticly. [20:29] ya but one thing bugs me why let lux fall [20:29] they could of helped [20:30] Lux fell because Trip was not prepared to fight a war. He gambled and lost. [20:30] I though it was all about keeping balance [20:30] he treated ND like a AI civ ... thinking they would just continue to REX ... they didn't. They got scared of Trip, built warriors, upgraded them with iron and kicked Trip's ass. [20:31] that does not eplain why you did not help lux [20:31] we were in the middle of REX just like Trip [20:32] The war was very early. VERY early [20:32] I warned you [20:32] how so? [20:32] thing were looking like wars would stat [20:33] all the agressive posturing [20:33] yeah, when you poke at a bee hive, the bees come out and sting you [20:33] you didn't think a war would come this early [20:33] I did [20:34] what's done is done. We now have 3 nations on this continent. More elbow room for us all. [20:35] there will be a cooling off period ..... unless ND & GoW decide to continue the war. [20:35] what is ND doing [20:35] hard to say. [20:35] we can only guess, as we can't see them [20:36] we are policizing [20:36] what do you mean by that? [20:36] developing policy [20:37] policy on ...? [20:37] you and the others [20:38] ah. Let me know how that turns out [20:38] you are mean and evil [20:39] and Arnelos is small and does nothing [20:39] [20:39] I'm mean and evil? [20:39] its slow as we have to meet you all [20:39] arnelos does little. He's stuck playing Moo3 right now [20:40] you notice the [20:40] [20:40] I'd better go. I need to cook up some dinner. [20:40] k bye [20:40] I'll drop on later tonight. Chat with you then. [20:40] bye - DCC session closed Session Close: Wed Mar 05 20:42:32 2003

As you can see they don't got Philocophy and they were not happy I would not tell them what we have, pay no worry about the way I was talking to togas it was all part of what do to get him more open to talk I have no plans to do stuff just to help togas.

	06-03-2003 10:21									#36
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quote: Fantastic ZargonX, you are a great loss to the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office We conquered a quarter of the world with messages such as that

What can I say; I just can't get enough of "diplomacy!" Sent the message off to Panzer32, will post his reply when it arrives.

	07-03-2003 16:10									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have an idea that could make happy both GoW and RP.

We send a message to GoW saying that we've found the island and that we could meet there. We propose them the following deal:
We will wait for them near the island, not going anywhere from there (trying to contact other civs). We won't try to contact others until they sell the contact to everyone interested. In exchange, they promise to give us half of the money.
No other deals until we meet in person (such as tech exchanges or future research coordination).

Now, we talk with the RP and tell them to buy the contact from GoW, to have contact with us sooner (we tell them that by boat it would take much longer, which is true, I think). Then we give back to them half of the money they paid to GoW.

We gain some money fro GoW, also they will know that we are flexible and good trading partners and in the same time we will make the RP happy and prove that we are serious in trading fair with them.

What do you think?

	08-03-2003 00:20									#38
	Inflate your Upload Space

Interesting proposal, Tiberius. Though, RP may want all of their money back for the contact sale, as they may feel it is justified under our earlier agreements. They also said they were sending someone up the coast (by land) to meet us sooner, so they may not want to shell out any money at all.

On another note, in the public forum, ND is looking for a native English speaker to deal diplomacy for them, specifically with the RPers. This could just be misdirection, or there could be trouble brewing. Alternatly, they could also be arranging an agreement to deal with their other, less trustworthy neighbor...

	08-03-2003 09:00									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Interesting idea... I like it. But considering we really are obligated to favor RPers, I'd try to include GoW gifting our contact to RPers in the deal; perhaps imply that we feel obligated to do so. (Which we technically aren't, as "Most Favored Nation" is left ambiguous except for tech.) So long as GoW still gets first crack at trading our contact around, I doubt they'd object seriously, and we would be favoring the RPers, even if they couldn't trade our contact around.

Edit: Also, remember that one of the few explicit clauses in our Carthage treaty was to favor them in tech trades. Considering this, I think we should start lining up a deal (revealing some of our techs and perhaps that we're currently researching Literature), to show we intend to honor this.

	08-03-2003 22:57									#40
	Further Complications Suffering from ads?

I just got a PM from DeepO, the GS ambassador, and it seems they too are interested in making first contact with Legoland. From DeepO's message they seem quite eager; even willing to go out of thier way to research MM and use suicide galleys. I will post the full message, but first is there a way to quote a PM without retyping it?

	09-03-2003 00:28									#41
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes.
Open the PM, select all the text (Ctrl+A), copy it in the clipboard (Ctrl+C), then post a new reply and paste the PM (Ctrl+V) in a quote.

	09-03-2003 02:46									#42
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks Tiberius, here is the message:

quote: Last time we spoke, you seemed to be interested in gaining contact with GS asap, and we certainly were and are interested in meeting your people soon. I guess that after our last chat you were able to build a galley, so maybe it's time to piece a map together so that you could reach us, or we can reach you? There was an interesting idea in our forum, which basically made it possible for us to meet in the middle of the ocean if our coasts would be less then 10 tiles apart, and looking at our minimap it seems that this is the case, however we can't know for sure. If we would be less then 10 tiles apart, we would both risk a galley for one turn in order to meet, but contact with you would certainly be worth a galley to us. A couple of things would be needed to make this happen, first and foremost, we should trade part of our minimaps to see the best place to cross the big ocean. You may have heared, but trading minimaps is actually a very big issue to us, you are the first, and only team we want to trade current information with. But, in order to keep our land hidden, we could edit the minimap so that it only shows the Eastern coast, if you give us only your Western Coast, we should be able to figure out a way. Further, we would need galleys, and as far as we know, no civ besides you has MM yet. But, we have the promise to acquire it in 2-3 turns, so that should be a big issue. We can have a galley sailing the world quite soon. All this assumes of course you haven't found a sailable path to us, or to Bob already, so if you do, please let us know, so that we can trade contact information soon. Eagerly awaiting your arrival on our coasts, DeepO of Gathering Storm

	09-03-2003 03:15									#43
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Now only if you had put the slash "/" in the right place, before the closing "quote".

	09-03-2003 03:19									#44
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I think we should let to every team know that very soon we will land on BOB and that most probably we will meet the civs from there first. Should they want to trade with GoW or RP for the contact, great. If not, they might choose very well to wait until we circumnavigate the continent.

	09-03-2003 22:51									#45
	Remove this text

Well, I've sent a reply saying that though we were very interested in the deal, a recently located channel to Bob makes contact much quicker that way. I also said that we would be interested in some kind of trade when we get contact, so hopfully we both have something of interest.

	10-03-2003 00:56									#46
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

OK, guys, you want to read this.

RPers are apparently less than happy about how things develop... I was first contacted by E_T and later by Togas himself. Here, read the logs (but keep the info for yourself, I do not think Togas would be too happy to know I posted the log here ):

quote: Session Start: Sun Mar 09 18:44:58 2003 Session Ident: E_T Session Ident: E_T (E_T@216-53-175-097.ppp.mpinet.net) E_T: We hear that you now have contact with GoW vondrack: yes, that's correct vondrack: technically, they have a contact with us vondrack: our galley ended up close to their cultural borders vondrack: but we were unable to see any units vondrack: so we did not get a contact vondrack: but they were able to spot the galley on their turn E_T: how soon do you think that you'll have the galley down close to that one spot on the minimap?? vondrack: not really sure... we hope to get a couple of contacts through GoW, so we will probably use the galley to finish exploring that mid-way island (it's of high strategic importance, I believe) vondrack: I would say 10-15 turns E_T: we are working to try to get the contact through GoW, but really don't have much to offer them at this point in time E_T: that's why I'm asking vondrack: I see vondrack: well, 10-15 turns is the best we'd be able to do - and that assumes we do not have to recall the galley to transport any units to that island (if, for example, a resource tile is discovered there) E_T: have you traded any maps with GoW yet? vondrack: nope and we do not plan to E_T: if we get contact with you, through GoW, will you be open to a map trade with us? or any other trades? vondrack: Other trades, yes - as long as there is anything to trade, of course. But map trade, I am afraid, not. vondrack: There was a poll in Legoland and it ended up binding our representatives to reject any map trades E_T: no problem, I can see that you want to claim as much land as you can first vondrack: GoW asked for our world map, but we told them exactly the same vondrack: yes, that's correct vondrack: we started in a less than optimal location vondrack: and our only hope for a brighter future is to claim some better land south of that vast jungle vondrack: keeping our map to ourselves looks like a way to buy ourselves some time to settle it vondrack: tbh, we would engage anyone trying to land there vondrack: immediately E_T: do you have a tech agreement with GoW yet (i.e. have they gotten you caught up) or is there still techs that your lacking? vondrack: I do not think I am at liberty to go into details... but my understanding is that we will catch up after trading with GoW vondrack: considering what Nimitz told me about the techs you have available vondrack: I believe that we will pretty much catch up vondrack: barring any very recent developments E_T: we are trying to look at if it would be cost effective to buy contact with just some of our limited cash (and likely GPT) and then beable to "recoop" most what we had lost from you.... vondrack: well, I am not sure about this... perhaps in a form of some complex deal... vondrack: we intend to go for The Republic very soon vondrack: so trading The Republic for, say Currency & Polytheism and the cash you'd spend on getting our contact now might be worth considering vondrack: but mind you, I am now "thinking aloud" vondrack: no authorization from my team vondrack: depends also on how much you would spend on getting our contact from GoW E_T: We are still working on Poly and it's still several turns away vondrack: I understand - we will have Republic in something like 20 turns vondrack: so it would be a future deal vondrack: but I am fairly sure we will get it before anyone else E_T: but we will need to have contact with you, so that we can "legally" start setting up a tech deal for teh future vondrack: "legally"? E_T: well, we don't have contact, so to say... but we have been sending "smoke siginals".... vondrack: I think there was no no-comm-before-ingame-contact rule set for this game vondrack: so I do not think it is necessary to have an ingame contact vondrack: before arranging a deal like that E_T: but when we do get actual contact, then we can really start doing things like summits and real future planning E_T: yes, but still, it make planning thing rather difficult without having that all important contact.... vondrack: well, what I had in mind was that you'd now buy the contact and we would then agree to exchange Rep for Poly+Curr+recuperation once such a deal is possible vondrack: that should be okay, no? vondrack: Rep+recuperation for Curr+Poly vondrack: sorry vondrack: But we can postpone the actual ingame contact, if you do not feel like buying it from GoW now. We will get to that crossing point sooner or later. E_T: that will have to wait for teh diplomatic people and Togas. I'm just trying to get info, so that we can decide what is the better thing to do for the next several turns from now vondrack: Most probably, it would be in time to make the Rep for Curr+Poly deal anyway... and we would save the recuperation vondrack: ok, no problem E_T: I'll let them know, chat at you later vondrack: ok, ttyl

That was 5:44-6:30pm GMT.

	10-03-2003 01:01									#47
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That was just a prelude though... this one is where I had most fun. Watch Togas lose his temper (RPers should really not let him negotiate directly ):

quote: Session Start: Sun Mar 09 19:31:29 2003 Session Ident: Togas Session Ident: Togas (~tom_ogas@adsl-64-167-40-212.dsl.frsn01.pacbell.net) Togas: are you free to chat right now? Togas: Let me put this bluntly: Togas: it is more important to you to scout another island out that to come visit us Togas: we aren't going to buy contact with you from GoW, since your nation won't make any trade deals with us Togas: we're very frustrated right now because we had counted on having a close friendship with Legoland, but your team prefers to deal through GoW than to come meet us vondrack: sorry, been having my supper vondrack: Let me put this bluntly: vondrack: if you wish to have a close friendship with Legoland, you will have to understand that we have our own concerns vondrack: sometimes getting a full picture of a strategically important island may be more important than getting a contact with another nation few turns earlier Togas: we've done everything we can, and bent over backwards, I told Nimitz all of our technology, offering it up to you vondrack: I have explained to E_T that we would be down there in time to make the deal even if you do not buy the contact vondrack: and what? Togas: there's nothing more we can do to show you that we're not the enemy vondrack: sure, we DO know you are not enemy vondrack: GoW offered a deal you simply do not turn down vondrack: that's it vondrack: all of our members are happy about it Togas: that's fine, I understand that vondrack: so tell me why should we delay things just to make another deal with you? vondrack: we do not demand Togas: you shouldn't vondrack: that you buy the contact vondrack: our galley sailed from such a point vondrack: that we made our first contact with another team Togas: what I'm trying to tell you is that it's a lot of little things, the reluctance, the distrust, and it adds up vondrack: reluctance? vondrack: distrust? Togas: Yes vondrack: what are you talking about? Togas: First, we were told that you wouldnt' visit us for something like 30 turns vondrack: that was correct at the time I was telling you Togas: then we are told that GoW will have mapmaking by GoW Togas: Then we are told by Nimitz that you will soon have contact with our continent vondrack: we dramatically rehashed our plans after finding out about the crossing point in the south vondrack: GoW will have Map Making by GoW?? Togas: and we figure out that somehow, you guys changed your mind Togas: We assume GoW got MM from you, as they just got it and offered it to us last turn vondrack: ah, yes, that's the distrust you've been mentioning? vondrack: GoW researched MM on their own vondrack: they did not get it form us vondrack: from Togas: what bothers me most is that it appeared to us that you changed your plans because you wanted to meet GoW, and that meeting us was a very low priority Togas: furthermore, Nimitz told us that he couldn't make any deals until we were about to meet. vondrack: Jesus! vondrack: I said that our galley vondrack: was sailing out from a point vondrack: on the other side of our landmass vondrack: we changed our plans significantly vondrack: to get to you earlier vondrack: and found out an earlier crossing to GoW vondrack: actually, they met us right after we crossed the ocean and anchored by the Bob coast vondrack: I told Nimitz to carve no deals until there is a certainty the deals can be fulfilled Togas: and nimitz was told not to reveal to us what technology you had. vondrack: I have no desire to get caught into complex webs of multi-sided deals we would not be able to guarantee vondrack: that's correct, I told him to tell nobody vondrack: he's our new FAM vondrack: and that direction was general Togas: right, and you wonder why we think you don't trust us vondrack: not specifically tailor for RPers vondrack: tailored vondrack: oh, are you serious? shall I feel equally offended by the fact that Arnelos mentioned not being allowed to reveal your current reserach project many turns ago? Togas: You shouldn't. vondrack: that's right vondrack: and now you should not feel offended Togas: because I told Nimitz what we were researching vondrack: afterwards Togas: and he wouldn't tell me what you were researching Togas: Arnelos isn't the ambassador, the FAM, or the leader of this team. Togas: Nimitz is your FAM Togas: and should be authorized to negotiate vondrack: and he was not Togas: so who is? He's the only one who ever talks to us vondrack: that's correct - and every time he IS authorized to reveal information or make deals, he says so vondrack: sometimes he is not * Togas sighs vondrack: look, this is getting nowhere vondrack: there was a deal I proposed to E_T vondrack: it did not include any need to buy our contact vondrack: as it would not be applicable Togas: Let's bring this back to important issue, then: vondrack: before 20+ turns vondrack: and that should be enough to get to you even with the important detour we need to make Togas: Our team and your team have a research pact. vondrack: correct Togas: you agree? vondrack: yep Togas: do you have any intention on abiding by that pact? vondrack: We do intend to cooperate with you on research projects, preferrably researching along different branches. Is that what you mean? Togas: if you want to cooperate on research, your nation and mine need to actually be open on what we are researching Togas: this needs to be done Togas: contact will happen when it happens, either we wait for your ship or we pay GoW the huge sums they're demanding vondrack: no problem - the tech Nimitz was not allowed to speak about was not our research project, but a tech we got from a late hut vondrack: currently, we are researching Literature Togas: but I am willing to open up and reveal and SHARE with you what we are researching, I need a commitment that you will be open with us vondrack: and we plan to start researching Republic very soon vondrack: is that open enough? Togas: We have literature, we have Code of Laws vondrack: ok Togas: Gow also has them, as we traded the knowedege to them. vondrack: I know Togas: We are working on Polytheism, and will do Monarchy next vondrack: that's great Togas: I need to warn you that Gathering Storm is working on Republic too vondrack: we intend to follow different paths vondrack: well, there is only so many techs one can research vondrack: with the ancient era getting to its end vondrack: it's natural that we will be doing something someone else does vondrack: I hope we will be quicker vondrack: just btw, how much GoW asks for the contact? Togas: I agree, I don't mind if you compete with GS, I just hope that you guys will beat them vondrack: I hope we will vondrack: though I have no idea about their research output Togas: the way this game has been played, the first nation with a tech trades it like mad Togas: I know you guys have been independent until now, we've been in the market a long time, the market moves fast vondrack: hopefully, we will learn the game Togas: I regret if I've made you angry, but what we important to me to get across to you is that we WANT a relationship with your team Togas: if it wasn't important to us, we wouldn't be offended or frustrated or angry, you see. vondrack: ok vondrack: what I vondrack: want to get across to you Togas: from the beginning of this game we set out to meet and establish a relationship with you vondrack: is that Lego has its own strategy vondrack: and that strategy is not SOLELY centered around cooperating with you Togas: one that doesn't include a friendship with us vondrack: we try to give a high priority to things that are related to you Togas: Not very high priority, it seems vondrack: but at times, there are more urgent affairs to attend to first vondrack: I am not going into any more verbal ping-pong, Togas. I believe I expressed myself clearly. Togas: We place a higher value on a "good ally" than you do Togas: I'm not trying to put you on the defensive or trying to convince you of something vondrack: I do not have any feelings like that Togas: You don't have to explain yourself, you just need to believe me -- we want to work WITH you, not against you, and we want to establish a strong alliance with another nation who thinks like we do. Togas: if you look at who our neighbors are, you begin to understand vondrack: I do Togas: You're on an island, and can afford to be more isolationist, I understand that. Togas: but don't think this is some machivellian ploy, because it isn't. vondrack: never said I would think so Togas: I hope that in the future that when your people are in need of a friend and an ally that you can turn to us. Togas: and I hope that one day we will be able to count on your support of our nation. vondrack: and we certainly hope that you will feel the same about us vondrack: yes vondrack: just keep in mind one thing vondrack: in all honesty vondrack: there will be only one team to win this game vondrack: and even between allies vondrack: each of them vondrack: will try to win vondrack: he will not backstab vondrack: he will not lie vondrack: he will help vondrack: but he will still try to win vondrack: unfortunately Togas: I hear ya, but I don't think you hear me. vondrack: winning in Civ3 means defeating ALL others vondrack: I can hear you very well Togas: right now we're not at that place where we can trust each other. vondrack: I am just telling you that when we hold a piece of information vondrack: it does not mean we are an enemy Togas: but it doesn't mean you're a friend either Togas: If you want friendship and cooperation, we are offering both to you. Togas: When you're willing to offer it back, you need to let us know. vondrack: good, let's start with real things like real deals and real cooperation * vondrack sighs. vondrack: we really Togas: it starts slowly, of course. That's fine. vondrack: seems to not be hearing each other vondrack: yes, slowly vondrack: that's the term vondrack: trust must be earned vondrack: for both sides vondrack: us and yourself vondrack: if you think things we did or did not do vondrack: were not nice of us Togas: right, and I'm telling you that we have made the first step, and we need you to show a little trust in us back vondrack: then hopefully, once we get real projects done successfully vondrack: the picture will change vondrack: Good. So, what exactly would you like to know now? vondrack: I guess we talked about the research vondrack: there was an idea I had Togas: I don't want to know anything right now, what I want is us to have the same motives. vondrack: about the Republic vondrack: Polytheism and Currency vondrack: did E_T tell you? Togas: He hasn't yet. I'm going to chat with him later today. He's still online vondrack: well, that explains a lot, I think vondrack: if you talked to him earlier vondrack: much of what has been said recently vondrack: would not be necessary, I think Togas: Well, much of what I said recently was from what he posted to our forum vondrack: and that was? Togas: he posted a log of a conversation about your meeting GoW, contacts, etc. vondrack: oh, then you know vondrack: I offered a real deal vondrack: not tied to acquiring any contact Togas: I'll review it after this conversation. I'm sure it's a good deal. Togas: what important to me, though, is the big picture vondrack: basically, I offered trading Republic for (Polytheism+Currency) vondrack: same costs Togas: Sounds good. Togas: vondrack: plus, if you want to trade our contact with GoW vondrack: we might recuperate your spendings vondrack: if they are reasonable vondrack: as part of the deal Togas: That's an excellent proposal, one that I would be happy to agree with. vondrack: I just did not want to recoup any contact-related spendings vondrack: if there was no actual need vondrack: to have that contact Togas: Just to let you know, I don't usually do the deal making myself, I normally let my ambassadors handle it vondrack: that was what E_T initially asked about or for Togas: I step in on the big projects, and I set policy, approve things, etc. vondrack: yeah, I understand Togas: what's important to me in this case is the relationship between your team and mine vondrack: I feel honored to be a big project... Togas: vondrack: just btw, how much GoW asks for the contact? Togas: that's right, you asked that ... hold on, I'm going to ask in channel Togas: my team had a chat with GOW at 6am my time vondrack: oh, I am usually already sleeping by that time... Togas: I woke up and read parts of the summary, and got a quick update by the guys who were online Togas: .... ET might be idle. The other 2 guys in chat don't know :/ Togas: I'll PM you when I find out from them. vondrack: no problem... I am just curious vondrack: I expected them to trade our contact around vondrack: just curious how much they think it is worth Togas: We expect that they will too, GoW is extremely opportunistic Togas: GoW is mostly responsible for the tech market being so deflated vondrack: I see Togas: they trade techs for far below their value, you probably got a very good deal from them, they seem to be more motivated by undercutting their rivals than actually making a profit vondrack: yeah, much like that vondrack: the deal was very good Togas: you guys will be modernized in no time at all. vondrack: that's correct Togas: for example, they gave us contact with Vox and GS for 40g, mostly so that we wouldn't buy it from Lux vondrack: hmmm, that's damn cheap Togas: if GoW thinks that we will get contact with Legoland "anyhow" by your boat coming down the shore, they might be willing to part with contact for pennies on the dollar vondrack: our contact should be much cheaper then vondrack: yes Togas: but if they know that we can't get it from anyone else.... things change vondrack: and if that's the case, Lego will be happy to throw in those few bucks into the tech deal I mentioned Togas: I'll get back to you as soon as one of my people gives me a # vondrack: the fact that GoW was actually "found" by our galley vondrack: and not the other way round vondrack: should help make better deals vondrack: ok, ttyl Togas: talk to you later. Sorry for causing such a fuss earlier Togas: Don't hold it against my team .... Our relationship with Legoland is a true priority to us, you have "most favored nation" trade status with us. vondrack: ok, I am glad we've found a common language Togas: agreed. I can be very passionate about things which are important to me. Togas: and I hope to not rub you the wrong way. vondrack: ok, no worries Togas: good vondrack: vondrack: cya

	10-03-2003 08:12									#48
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Well I got a message from Thud the RPers now have contact with us they bought it from GoW and are ready to start dealing.

	10-03-2003 08:17									#49
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How much did RP end up paying?

We agreed to compensate them if it was an unreasonable amount - reportedly GoW was asking Vox for 45 gold for example. So we need to know so that we can set aside an amount by then.

We would pay it to them when we traded Republic for Currency (Commerce) + Polytheism.

	10-03-2003 10:21									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe How much did RP end up paying? We agreed to compensate them if it was an unreasonable amount - reportedly GoW was asking Vox for 45 gold for example. So we need to know so that we can set aside an amount by then. We would pay it to them when we traded Republic for Currency (Commerce) + Polytheism.

If GhengisFarb tells truth, RPers paid 40 gold for our contact. I believe it would be a nice gesture of good will from our side to recuperate RPers' expenses as part of that future tech deal (Republic+40g for Currency+Polytheism... Togas indicated he would be happy with a deal like that).

A side-note: even though the deal was unofficially proposed to RPers and I believe it would be beneficial for both teams to make it, it was NOT officially accepted by either side yet and remains just a proposal... I would thus like to hear from everybody if it is acceptable.

Shall we make a deal on trading The Republic and 40 gold for Polytheism and Currency with RPers?

	10-03-2003 10:34									#51
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quote: Vondrack, We have successfully negotiated with Glory of War to aquire contact with your nation for 40 gold. We feel that contact with your nation is worth paying this amount (we probably would have paid more, and are glad we didn't have to!), and we are happy to have arranged it. We would like to ask that Legoland help pay for 1/2 of the cost of contact you. Please let us know as soon as you can. --Togas

This just came from Togas... I believe that what they ask for is pretty reasonable and I would be okay to pay them 20 gold immediately, even if making it part of that more complex deal anyway.

I guess we can ask the barbarians at the southern tip of Legos Minor to help with the funding...

	10-03-2003 10:52									#52
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack This just came from Togas... I believe that what they ask for is pretty reasonable and I would be okay to pay them 20 gold immediately, even if making it part of that more complex deal anyway. I guess we can ask the barbarians at the southern tip of Legos Minor to help with the funding...

I too, think we should kindly ask the barbarians to help us in returning those money immediately to the RPs.

As for the treaty, the Republic for Currency and Polytheism plus some money (now we are going to pay half in advance, only 20 I guess) sounds good. But let's wait to see if we can be the first team to research it .

	10-03-2003 14:20									#53
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We could also mention that Vox and GS are probably reluctant to buy from Gow and that RP could sell for 20 each

	10-03-2003 21:04									#54
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Well, if 20 is all they're asking for, no arguments here. And Redstar1 brings up a good point, RP may be able to cash in on selling contact to the other non-Bobians.

	10-03-2003 23:04									#55
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I see much has happened this weekend. I am still trying to sort it all out. I still get confused on who is who and where they are on the map. I'll try to get up to speed later today.

In any case, it seems that everyone is in agreement, so far. I will not attempt to hold up and deals.

	10-03-2003 23:45									#56
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quote: Originally posted by lmtoops I see much has happened this weekend. I am still trying to sort it all out. I still get confused on who is who and where they are on the map. I'll try to get up to speed later today. In any case, it seems that everyone is in agreement, so far. I will not attempt to hold up and deals.

Just to help you out a bit:



We are to the left, the contact with GoW has been done in the North. The white dot to the right of the contact spot is GoW's capital. South of GoW is ND, further South is RPers (cyan). The "red team" (Luxes) is no longer in the game, their territory now belonging to ND. Far in the right, Voxes in the North and GS in the South.

The fine catch-up deal was done with GoW. We currently negotiate another deal (Republic for Currency & Polytheism) with RPers and consider offering a deal to GS ("joint venture" research of the Republic).

Hope this helps.

	10-03-2003 23:58									#57
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An interesting piece of information over in the ISDG forum: apparently the RPers are also hard pressed for iron. E_T didn't elaborate, but he gave the impression that they probably either have iron at a very remote city, or perhaps none at all hooked up yet. WIth GoW also short on iron, it looks like we may have a very solid resource base to deal with other teams (either economically or militarily...)

	11-03-2003 00:14									#58
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This would be a good argument to give higher priorities for settling near/on resources (iron and horses), even if those cities are going to be very corrupted and useless for a while.

	11-03-2003 04:00									#59
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Tiberius,

Thank you for the summary of events. What you described is what I thought had happened, but I wasn't sure if I missed anything.

We are in a bit of a "power" position. Everyone is eager to meet us before the other civs. I suppose whoring the contact and the techs give them a bit more money. In any case, we must take the best deal.

No offense intended towards the other civs, but GoW was closer than the others and had a galley in the area.

	11-03-2003 10:51									#60
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If the RPers want us to gift 20 gold, let's by all means do so.

And the two proposed deals (Republic for Currency and Poly, joint Republic research with GS) both look good.