12-03-2003 13:24									#61
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Hmmm... this is perhaps RPers' idea of "close cooperation"...

quote: Session Start: Wed Mar 12 08:17:51 2003 Session Ident: Togas vondrack: Togas, any news on if RPers are likely to go for the deal we were speaking of? vondrack: we'd appreciate knowing ASAP, to adjust our deals with other teams Togas: We're hopeful that you'll decide to help us pay for contact, but the other tech deal is far off in the future, as we don't have any of those techs yet. vondrack: the payment has already be approved vondrack: you will get 20 gold this turn Togas: good to hear vondrack: no pre-arranged deals then? vondrack: I mean - not a problem for us Togas: The tech proposal was posted but we haven't discussed it at all since it seems to be 30+ turns or so in the future. Togas: In the past, we've tended to tie up deals @5 turns before tech was available vondrack: ok, just to make it clear... if we do not agree on it now, we may not be able to negotiate it later Togas: we might make an exception in this case, we just need to keep each other in formed. vondrack: because we may not go for the Republic Togas: ... to be frank with you, we'd hoped that you didn't go republic vondrack: several scenarios possible vondrack: and they mostly depend on whether we make a deal with you or not vondrack: just thought I would tell you, to keep the spirit we agreed upon last time Togas: sounds like we should discuss it a bit more vondrack: yes, do so, please Togas: I'll be free tomorrow and have more time to talk then. vondrack: k, bye for now Togas: I'll also try to catch a few of my advisors in chat to see what our options are. vondrack: k, thanks Togas: Talk to you later today ... (tomorrow my time) vondrack: k, g'night! Togas: Session Close: Wed Mar 12 08:23:37 2003

Unless they let us know before this turn of ours, I suggest we take a solution not relying upon any deals with RPers... if they later come back, fine. If not, never mind.

Just a side note... Togas really gets on my nerves. I just hate such dishonest and slippery people... he first says how happy he would be to make a deal with us and later states the proposal was not even discussed as it seemed to be too far in the future... and that RPers would hope for us not going after Republic... go figure...

I will continue my thoughts in the GS discussion thread.

	12-03-2003 15:48									#62
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Radek, I am starting to wonder whether your opinion may be affecting our situation with RP.

We have to maintain at least decent relations with RP due to their strength, proximity, and their ability to colonize our southern area.

I am becoming worried that our relations with RP are becoming damaged beyond repair - I mean mentioning "there can be only one to win" was a bit overboard and Togas seemed angry last time and may be considering other options than us now.

As I have said many times, we can't afford the possibility of a ND-RP alliance. We would be not only very vulnerable to that but also very likely a target of such an alliance.

It is reasonable to not negotiate a deal 20 to 30 turns down the road - a lot can happen between now and then and with the myriad of trade possibilities it may only become clear what is best when civs are approaching getting these techs.

When it comes to what we should research, our main priority should be what we need most, then what can we trade for/with. Right now we are starting to have major corruption problems and we need to get out of despotism while also finishing off the ancient age techs.

	12-03-2003 16:22									#63
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Sharpe,

I don't think its an attitude problem on our behalf. From what Vondrack and nimitz in particular have picked up from dealing with Togas its seems that he is playing his own little diplomatic game of cat and mouse. I would hazard to guess that he is upset that Legoland has not become the lapdog of RP. I for one would prefer that we got on with playing the game to suit ourselves, and not to keep Togas and his ego happy

Togas wants to have a good relationship with us. in my view this means that we should both make the effort to arrange deals and this looks to all the world like Togas delaying discussions until we are ready to beg them for a deal. He says they had hoped we wouldn't research Republic...why? He doesn't suggest any deal... what he wants is for us to commit to researching something we can easily get elsewhere, then 15 turns down the line Togas can impose his own conditions on any deal because we get left with a tech that GS will have before us, and undoubtedly have already agreed to trade.

I appreciate the need to keep a good relationship with RP, as with all the teams but I don't see why it should involve us chasing RP to sign up to a deal when we can get conditions as good as, if not better than RP can offer.



Just my 5 pence...

	12-03-2003 16:42									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Radek, I am starting to wonder whether your opinion may be affecting our situation with RP. We have to maintain at least decent relations with RP due to their strength, proximity, and their ability to colonize our southern area. I am becoming worried that our relations with RP are becoming damaged beyond repair - I mean mentioning "there can be only one to win" was a bit overboard and Togas seemed angry last time and may be considering other options than us now.

Uhhh... Steve, you read the log. What the hell I was supposed to do? That guy jumped at me, being outright furious before I said my first word, throwing all kinds of bullshit at me (like Lego trading MM to GoW secretly, not telling RPers etc.). IMO, I was very mild to him.

I made it clear to him that we are going to help RPers and cooperate with them only as far as it's profitable to us, too. I mean, c'mon... Togas behaves as if our only goal was to help RPers! As if we were supposed to tell them anything and everything they wish to know. F**k them! Why the hell would we help them win this game, burying our own chances? If they want us to treat them fair, THEY have to start treating us fair. If they want us to be polite and open with them, THEY have to be polite and open with us.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe As I have said many times, we can't afford the possibility of a ND-RP alliance. We would be not only very vulnerable to that but also very likely a target of such an alliance.

We CAN afford it if we are able to secure allies enough. Allying with Estonians against Bobians, e.g., would be an option. The possibility of ND allying with RPers against us is quite low at the moment... and even if they did ally, the costs of transporting units enough to our mainland would be so horrible that they would sooner or later drain themselves to death (keep in mind that GS & Voxes are VERY close to them and feeling a bit restrained on their continent...).

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe It is reasonable to not negotiate a deal 20 to 30 turns down the road - a lot can happen between now and then and with the myriad of trade possibilities it may only become clear what is best when civs are approaching getting these techs.

A deal 20 turns into the future (that is how long it would take to get The Republic) is (or shall be) completely ok. I mean... how the hell we are supposed to "coordinate" our research when they are not responding to our offer, providing us with virtually zero input we need to set our research goal? We would be able to guarantee The Republic. They would be able to guarantee Polytheism and probably Currency (that would be the only thing they would have to make sure they can get, from ND - and btw, they would be able to research it on their own, if necessary). So, where are those "myriads" of trade possibilities? I thought that making deals was about picking certain ones out of those myriads.

Sure, they may be able to get it cheaper or a bit earlier from someone else... but IMO that's not the cooperation they are talking about all the time. If they give us no guarantees, we give them none either. If they want to trade with us only if we give them the best offers, then we have no need to consider their needs and trade with them on exactly the same basis. All that would be relevant then would be OUR OWN PROFIT. If they wish to go this way, fair enough. But God forbid Togas then to try his "we are frustrated by your approach" crap on me ever again.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe When it comes to what we should research, our main priority should be what we need most, then what can we trade for/with. Right now we are starting to have major corruption problems and we need to get out of despotism while also finishing off the ancient age techs.

That's 100% correct.

All I was trying to do was to arrange a deal that would make it guaranteed for both teams that they get all the mandatory ancient techs + The Republic and get out of the ancient times ASAP. If they are not willing to take this deal, then they are considering the possibility of letting us lag behind them, possibly trading for the techs on their own, trying to be medieval faster than us.

That would be perfectly okay with me, if they were not declaring how special and unique we are to them.

And last but not least... I will be more than happy letting someone else deal with Togas. The problem is that he seems to be sort of uneasy or belittled dealing with just an ambassador that has authorization limits regarding what he can negotiate and what he cannot.

Sorry to sound a bit harsh maybe, but I really believe that the problem is not with me.

	12-03-2003 16:56									#65
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I think our relationships with teams is one thing we need to have a good discussion about..

as for RP and Togas in particular I'd be interested in hearing what Nimitz has to say. He has had the pleasure of dealing with Togas pretty much from the start of the game and he is in prime position to comment on Togas.

As it stands we have a good trading relationship (or potentially) with GS and GOW, not withstanding the fact that GOW reneged on a deal with GS, thats something we have to consider.

We don't even have contact with GS yet as GOW have put a very high price on our heads so to speak. When we gain contact with ND and Vox we will be able to negociate with them. I would imagine ND would be keen to conduct a good trading relationship while Vox would be keen for us not to have a good relationship with ND. We can use this to our advantage.

In the meantime lets not get ourselves held to ransom by the only 2 teams who have our contact. Its not a life or death situation, yet

	14-03-2003 14:46									#66
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Hmmm... another message from our roleplaying brothers...

quote: Session Start: Fri Mar 14 07:45:34 2003 Session Ident: Togas Session Ident: Togas (~tom_ogas@adsl-63-202-55-189.dsl.frsn01.pacbell.net) Togas: I can't chat, but I'd like to tomorrow (my time) if we both get a chance. Togas: I'm about to go to sleep Togas: Just wanted to ask to see you guys decided to help subsidize our contact. We just received contact with your team this turn, so we can now officially chat Togas: Also, we discussed the trade offer you made and several of my teammates brought me back to reality Togas: the Roleplay implications of Republic are scary. I'd have to give up power and allow a Senate to run Spain. Togas: I'd much rather go Monarchy and keep my current position and my head. Those Revolutions are scary when you're a Roleplay team. Togas: I think Republic for Currency + Poly is a FAIR trade, but I don't think we'll want to do it due to the RP considerations ... I don't want my country to be run in such a fasion. Togas: I hope that your nation will consider a different research path, but I understand if you still want Republic. Togas: talk to you soon

Go figure...

Ya know, I love it when someone claiming to consider us "special" says that something is a FAIR deal, but has no interest in pursuing it.

IOW, RPers say: yes, Republic for Curr+Poly would be fair as far as the price is concerned, but we would get something we do not need or plan to use soon, so we would rather not have you get what you need.

Sweet. I suggest we no longer consider RPers' needs and go strictly for our own needs. If we can make a trade with them along the way, good. If not, I do not care. They don't care for us either.

Let's give them 20 gold and treat them as any other team.

	14-03-2003 15:03									#67
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Wonderful. Our most trusted allie can't help us cos he will get voted out

I didn't realise RP were taking things so seriously.... Perhaps we should roleplay back and contact someone within RP with the intention of assisting a revolution?

muhahahaha

	14-03-2003 19:18									#68
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Isn't this what I warned about a long time ago? I always said they could role-play their way out of any arrangements, as well as eventually role-play their way into stabbing us in the back. I would not view our relationship with them as a high priority, as we are more than capable of making new friends in this world. It's not as if we've really gotten much out of the relationship yet, anyway.

	14-03-2003 20:04									#69
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I agree, the early promise of a brotherly relationship has certainly disappeared. Treating them no more special than anyone else is the way forward here. In fact I am leaning more towards thinking of GOW as our closest allie at the moment.

	14-03-2003 20:19									#70
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I think the RPer are full of sh*t. They just use their "rp style" to justify whatever they want (as Zargon pointed out). I'm sure their true motives are otherwise, but they'll hide behind the rp excuse.

	14-03-2003 20:23									#71
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quote: Originally posted by redstar1 I agree, the early promise of a brotherly relationship has certainly disappeared. Treating them no more special than anyone else is the way forward here. In fact I am leaning more towards thinking of GOW as our closest allie at the moment.

Exactly my thoughts. GoW have been easy and quick to deal with so far... and reliable, as far as standing in the word given to us is concerned.

I will be much happier to deal with "bloodthirsty warmongers" that actually strike deals beneficial for both sides than with "brothers" that just keep talking about being the greatest allies ever and in fact just slow us down only by confusing us regarding their true intentions...

	15-03-2003 01:23									#72
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Well, we tried. I agree we should give up on a close alliance with the RPers; using RP as an excuse is pretty lame.

Though, to play devil's advocate... we weren't planning on buying the RPer's pet project Monarchy, were we?

	15-03-2003 05:22									#73
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I agree, it does certainly appear that RP is no longer trustworthy anymore. You can't get more evasive than Togas was in that last conversation. (I mean role-playing tactics can only go so far...). My apologies for doubting you on this Radek.

I do find it curious that RP talked about how we were both similar in our peaceful thinking - and yet they now aren't interested in Republic and are going for Monarchy? Very odd, or they were never honest about their intentions in the first place.

I think that we should now be doubly on our guard for any RP landing in the south (especially settlers)and their choice of monarchy may indicate a more militaristic stance perhaps even towards us...

Given GS's openness and willingness to trade, I am tempted to suggest that we propose a trading and mutual defense pact soon with them. If they accept we should then propose expanding the "coalition" to perhaps include GoW and if GS is willing - Vox. Even GoW, GS and us would prove a very effective counterweight to any possible ND-RP alliance.

That being said - I am not completely counting out ND - if they show the same friendly attitude that GS has shown, I would grab at a ND-GS-us coalition in a heartbeat (GoW could be included too if we could persuade ND that RP is much more of a threat to them).

For now I would favour GoW and GS as likely reliable trading partners - perhaps even preferential trading partners and to work with them on a common tech strategy.

	15-03-2003 13:35									#74
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I agree with all what you've said, Sharpe.

The first things we should try perhaps is to establish with the GS a tech supremacy, trying to be a few turns ahead of other civs, grabbing the best techs for ourselves. Thus we could make good deals within our "tech sphere of influence", the GoW and RP, while already working on our next projects .

GS would the best partner on the long run, because their goal for the near future is the same ours: keeping the Bob civs in balance. We will have to pick an ally from Bob, too, and that should be a reliable, trustworthy, but not the most powerful civ. Certainly the GoW seems the best candidate for now, but things can change in the future, so let us keep good relation with everybody, trading as much as possible while observing the others and watching our borders. We will know more in 10 or 20 turns, but the alliance with the GS should be set up until then (I'm not mentioning the Voxes, because I think we should leave them in GSs sphere of influence; unless GS themselves become too powerful, that is).

	18-03-2003 11:40									#75
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It'd be about time to make a proposal to the RPs for Currency. It is not in our best interest to further deteriorate our relations with them. Maybe we don't want them as allies anymore, but neither do we need an enemy.

We are selling Currency+Construction for 250 to the GoW. We have agreed to sell for less to the RPs, so how about 220? It is unlikely that they will have that much money, so why not? We don't need Monarchy and they declined our previous trade proposal, so we are in advantage now, meaning we don't have to accept a treaty with Monarchy included. We want the money. They have it, fine, we'll be rich. They don't have it, fine again, we made a proposal again and they will be the one to break a treaty, not us.

It's a win-win situation.

	18-03-2003 16:25									#76
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Agreed... however, I would start with Currency alone. RPers do not know who popped Construction yet and you may have noticed that I lightly touched the idea of letting GoW sell Construction to RPers in my chat with GoW (that would be something we could easily explain and back up - saying it was part of our deal with GoW, who were already researching the tech).

Otherwise, I agree that their previous decline of our Rep for Curr+Constr trade fully justifies asking money only and not accepting Monarchy in return. That will teach 'em.

	18-03-2003 18:58									#77
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But if we start with Currecy alone, we have to ask a very low price. We sold it to the GoW for 60, so we should sell it to the RPs for 50. That's a bargain and I'm not happy about it, but what can we do? Under any circumstancies, we must respect our treaties.

May I suggest to rephrase the treaty with the GoW, so that the Currency would be 80 and the Construction 170, in case they accept the total of 250? This way we could ask 70 from the RPs.
In the same time, we could mention that we have a treaty with the GoW so they must buy Construction from them. This should make the GoW happy, too.

	18-03-2003 19:13									#78
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Hmmm... that is not a bad idea. Even though I would be perfectly fine with selling Currency to RPers for more than 60 gold - we were paying back GoW their fair deal on Polytheism. As I understand the pre-game treaty with RPers, we shall sell them techs for less than to others assuming that other conditions are the same. Which is clearly not the case here. Otherwise, we would always have to prefer them, even if other teams are easier to cooperate with. That would make no sense.

But I agree that rephrasing the deal with GoW shall be a smart solution making us honor not only to the spirit, but also the wording of our pregame treaty with RPers.

	21-03-2003 15:30									#79
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Well, discussing our latest research success with redstar1, we came to these conclusions:

1) Boasting about getting yet another tech from a goody hut would most probably lead do other teams feeling less friendly about us (those super-bloody-lucky bastards!).

2) Trading it around would piss RPers off mightily.

3) We still want to make something out of the luck we have (we will run out of it one day, so we better save something for worse times).

4) RPers started researching Monarchy on Turn 70 (+/- 1 turn). Their GNP is 41 maximum. Considering the total corruption level to be roughly the same as ours (about 25%-30%), they should be able to invest about 30 beakers per turn into their research. Monarchy is 24*24=576 beakers nominal research cost. Now, that we have it, it is less - my best estimate is about 519 beakers. Considering 30 bpt, they should be like 200+ beakers into the research, leaving about 10-11 turns to finish it (worth like ~300 gold).

Now, here is an idea:

Secretly provide RPers with Monarchy in exchange for 100 gold immediately and 150 gold payable on Turn 90. Grant them exclusive rights to trade Monarchy around for 20-25 turns.

The reason behind splitting the payment to two parts is that we want to be "safe" to at least some extent (thus the upfront 100g part), while making the deal acceptable for RPers (thus the postponed 150g payment). They should still save like ~50+ gold along the way and have their trades with other teams. IMHO, the deal is generous enough to make them view us in a better light...

If they flat refuse or are difficult... then... well, we can generously gift Monarchy to GoW and ND in a couple of turns. That should immensely help our relations with these teams.

I have already PMed Togas telling him we need to talk about something (saying nothing specific, mentioning an "unexpected" development only), so I need you thoughts on this ASAP.

	21-03-2003 16:09									#80
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Believe me or not, I was preparing to post the exact same proposal (except for the payment part, which I would have leaved open for discussions). I didn't post it only because I didn't have the time.

So yes, good idea

	21-03-2003 16:36									#81
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I don't know that we should be talking about trading Monarchy around until we decide if we are going to switch governments as well - especially trading it to religious civs who can switch governments in one turn...

They will likely want it NOW. But we shouldn't until we decide what we are doing. One things for sure, the Religious civs WILL switch governments - all of them including ND and GS as well (and both of them would be mad at us for not telling them that we have Monarchy). As well there is the possibility that if GS gets Monarchy that they might slow down their Republic research.

As well GoW may well be angry if the two other Bob civs suddenly change governments before they can.

As for the important topic with Togas you could always stall by saying that you heard that they have luxuries and are interested in trading for them (conveniently forgetting that we can't because of the sea square between us) or possibly letting them know that we have the Bob Map (could be that ND has let the other Bob civs know anyway).

	21-03-2003 16:42									#82
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Oh yes, Sharpe is right. Actually that was a difference between this proposal and my thoughts, but I didn't realize it until now. I would have given Monarchy to the RPs after a number of turns (say in the turn of the Republic exchange).

	21-03-2003 17:21									#83
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Respectfully, I disagree. RPers will learn that someone got Monarchy on THIS TURN. They are not dumb and they will most likely suspect us - as they know nobody else could possibly have it researched the hard way so far. The only civ that might still have a hut to pop is us.

So, if we try to "hide" the fact from RPers, it will only help deteriorating our relations further.

I completely agree that RPers will switch their gov ASAP, even though I would not be so sure they would do it immediately - but believe me, they will not trade Monarchy around too fast, exactly because they would be denying themselves an advantage of switching to Monarchy early (ahead of others) themselves.

As for our government changes - I believe it is very obvious we will not be changing governments until Jackson is done building The Pyramids. Plus, we will certainly not switch to Monarchy, but to Republic. So, by delaying the trade for 15+ turns, we do not help ourselves in any way, just "harm" RPers - and that is exactly what we do not want to do at this time. Not if they are able to find out.

Let's grant them few turns of economic advantage over us. We know we will outgrow them soon anyway. And such a generous offering will sure make them regain trust in our good intentions.

However, considering they will be able to switch to Monarchy immediately (which I forgot of) I would add the following provisions to the proposal:

1) raise the second part of the payment to 200 gold
2) include a 10 turn no-whoring clause

They will try to bargain, so we may ease the gold part later again, plus we will make sure it's only them to get the economic advantage of switching to Monarchy early.

And one more time - keep in mind that we will not be able to hide the fact it was us having Monarchy. If we decide to go openly hostile towards RP, then so be it, keep Monarchy away from them and whore it around in 9 turns. But if we want to be friends, we really have no other option, but sell it to them ASAP, just negotiating a fair price.

	21-03-2003 17:29									#84
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I didn't say to hide the fact that we have Monarchy, but give it to them after a number of turns. They can shut down their research completely and give us 250 gold on the delivery of Monarchy. They should understand we can't give it to them now, as this would be a huge advantage for them. Plus, one way or another, other teams would find out that they have it, and everybody will know that they couldn't possibly research it that fast. So, we will have a lot of suspicions from not one, but 4 teams. Is that better?

Edit: we can agree maybe on a compromise: we give them Monarchy in 5 turns, they give us 125 gold and don't trade Monarchy for another 5 turns, when they give us another 125 gold. How about this?

Last edited by Tiberius on 21-03-2003 at 17:45

	21-03-2003 18:01									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I didn't say to hide the fact that we have Monarchy, but give it to them after a number of turns. They can shut down their research completely and give us 250 gold on the delivery of Monarchy. They should understand we can't give it to them now, as this would be a huge advantage for them.

Well, this is exactly a reason they will not be willing to accept. If we claim to be their friends, we can hardly use "we do not want you to get such a big advantage" argument, I think. Judging from my past encounters with Togas (and his brilliant effort in the ISDG game, where he completely alienated CDG for absolutely no gain), he is not really an overly reasonable person...

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Plus, one way or another, other teams would find out that they have it, and everybody will know that they couldn't possibly research it that fast. So, we will have a lot of suspicions from not one, but 4 teams. Is that better?

Others are less likely to find out... they are not researching it, thus not keeping their eye on it so closely (at least we can hope for that). Though the point is valid and it would probably be fine to point it out to RPers, too. They themselves may realize it would be better to postpone the monarchy switch for a couple of turns, since they would then be able to confuse others by "getting" it earlier then anticipated, thus indicating a very good research output. Good idea, we can definitely us it in negotiations.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Edit: we can agree maybe on a compromise: we give them Monarchy in 5 turns, they give us 125 gold and don't trade Monarchy for another 5 turns, when they give us another 125 gold. How about this?

I am very open to adjusting the payment figures - what I started with was just an idea... I would probably start with 150+150 and allow Togas to bargain down to like 125+125 or 100+150... and I would definitely try to make him agree on a certain delay in switching to Monarchy, explaining it's in their own interest.

	21-03-2003 18:18									#86
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack I am very open to adjusting the payment figures - what I started with was just an idea... I would probably start with 150+150 and allow Togas to bargain down to like 125+125 or 100+150... and I would definitely try to make him agree on a certain delay in switching to Monarchy, explaining it's in their own interest.

If i was up to me, the timeline would look like this.
- we tell them to shut down their research
- in 5 turns we give them Monarchy, and they pay us 125 gold, with the promise that they keep it secret another 5 turns.
- in 10 turns they gave us the other half of the payment, and they are free to trade Monarchy.

I'm afraid that trying to make Togas "agree on a certain delay in switching to Monarchy, explaining it's in their own interest" is not enough. He won't accept it as an advice. We have to present this as part of the treaty. This is our insurance. He must accept it. The alternative is that we trade Monarchy with all of the other nations and leave them out.

	21-03-2003 18:33									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius If i was up to me, the timeline would look like this. - we tell them to shut down their research - in 5 turns we give them Monarchy, and they pay us 125 gold, with the promise that they keep it secret another 5 turns. - in 10 turns they gave us the other half of the payment, and they are free to trade Monarchy. I'm afraid that trying to make Togas "agree on a certain delay in switching to Monarchy, explaining it's in their own interest" is not enough. He won't accept it as an advice. We have to present this as part of the treaty. This is our insurance. He must accept it. The alternative is that we trade Monarchy with all of the other nations and leave them out.

I still suggest we start with 150+150.
We need to be able to make a "compromise" late on. Starting with a figure we WANT to get is - in this case - bad bargaining.

I agree that the delay shall be part of the treaty, but we shall it make so by means of explaining and posing as feeling "possible strongly disliked" by other teams, if it becomes publicly known or suspected we sold Monarchy to RPers with exclusive resale rights.

Your timeline inspired me to this:

IMMEDIATELY:
1) tell RPers we have Monarchy and are willing to trade it to them together with exclusive resale rights.
2) explain our concerns about other teams disliking an arrangement like this, if they ever find out about it.
3) suggest the following arrangement:

4) We give them Monarchy as soon as they are able to pay us 150 gold. They agree to not switch to it until Turn 82 (this effectively means they would probably want to buy it on Turn 82). They agree to not resell it until the other part of the payment (see below) is fulfilled.
5) They are free and granted to buy the exclusive rights for Monarchy resale for additional 150 gold within the following 10-15 turns. The exclusivity would expire 20 turns after they pay this second payment to us.

And if they bargain, we may go down to 125+125... or something similar, add a turn here or there...

EDIT: oh, and one thing to keep in mind... NEVER try presenting ideas like "the other way round is we whore Monarchy around and you will end up screwed..." to Togas. NEVER EVER. That is going to drive him mad in no time... resulting in emotional rather than rational approach.

	21-03-2003 20:31									#88
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Sounds good. I agree.

quote: oh, and one thing to keep in mind... NEVER try presenting ideas like "the other way round is we whore Monarchy around and you will end up screwed..." to Togas. NEVER EVER. That is going to drive him mad in no time... resulting in emotional rather than rational approach

I know. It is what they should think/know, without us saying it.

	21-03-2003 20:46									#89
	Put an end to popups!

Well, I would kind of view this as the final test in our relations with RP. If they accept the deal, which is a good deal, then great, maybe we can patch things up. If they don't accept it, or get upset by the fact that we got Monarchy (through no fault of our own), then I would pretty much give up on trying to helpful to them. As you said, Vondrack, Togas has a tendancy to react very emotionally in his diplomacy, so if he gives us a bad reaction, I say forget 'em.

	22-03-2003 03:05									#90
	Support Apolyton

Looks good.

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Well, I would kind of view this as the final test in our relations with RP. If they accept the deal, which is a good deal, then great, maybe we can patch things up. If they don't accept it, or get upset by the fact that we got Monarchy (through no fault of our own), then I would pretty much give up on trying to helpful to them. As you said, Vondrack, Togas has a tendancy to react very emotionally in his diplomacy, so if he gives us a bad reaction, I say forget 'em.

Agreed. Togas shouldn't have even an RP excuse to reject this one.