07-04-2003 07:21									#121
	Remove this text

OK, enough of this crap. I am getting sick of it. This is a draft I am posting for your comments. I would like to dispatch this message, possibly amended based upon your comments, to RPers within 2 days.

quote: Esteemed Ambassador, As you probably know, Legoland already has the map of your continent and thus has no need to trade for it. While we do understand your mighty ruler would like to learn about the geography of our homeland, trading our world map is, for various reasons, not an option. Legoland does not trade its world map. Should getting the map become a prerequisite for signing our treaty, the Senate of Legoland will not be able ratify it, and to our greatest grief, there will be no defense pact between our glorious nations. Also, as you must know by now, Legoland already possesses the knowledge of Monotheism, so we have to regretfully decline your recent trading proposal. On behalf of the people of Legoland, vondrack, The President

Cold, brief, unfriendly. Just as they are.

	07-04-2003 07:29									#122
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Actually that is a little more kind than I thought you would put it , but it is fine the way it is - as I stated in the GoW thread, no need to push RP into another's camp - there is a difference between being allies and enemies.

	07-04-2003 13:31									#123
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Sounds good.
Maybe we should also mention that the NAP (or MPP or whatever) draft we sent to them was just a draft; nothing more. It must be ratified by vote by the Senate of Legoland before it becomes official.

	07-04-2003 13:51									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Sounds good. Maybe we should also mention that the NAP (or MPP or whatever) draft we sent to them was just a draft; nothing more. It must be ratified by vote by the Senate of Legoland before it becomes official.

I believe they are very well aware of it - the PM from Thud expressly states Togas "might not" approve the pact, if we refused to provide them with our world map. Which kinda implies they do not consider it valid yet either. But I see your point and will try adding a sentence to that effect.

And as adding this extra map clause is just plain unacceptable for us, they have no good reason to pose as "offended" if we do not sign the treaty now. The map is a major issue for us - and we made it very clear in the past that we never intended to trade our world map.

As I mentioned in the chat last night, I am quite sure RPers are either trying to make the deal so lopsided it would still be okay for them (despite the fact they might be obliged to actually help us one day), or that they deliberately ask for something they know we will not accept to avoid signing the treaty now, while not becoming those that "actually" trash it. Most of you will probably remember that I, from the very beginning, felt like Togas would never sign such a treaty at all... and this is more or less what I expected.

EDIT: added a bit of text to the draft to incorporate Tibi's suggestion. See above - the text in bold letters.

	07-04-2003 14:18									#125
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OK, sounds very good now.

Speculating a bit on what are the RPs after, I can see 3 possibilities:

1. no conspiracy theory They want a pact and a WM exchange

2. the plan was from the beginning to get our WM and the whole MPP was only a diversion, a well-thought out plan on how to get our WM

3. they wanted the pact in the beginning, but GoW is preparing the psichological terrain for their invasion in the south (GoW+Vox +ND against RP) and thus selling crap stories to the RPs that we are the next victim; all this to divert the RPs attention; as a result, Togas is playing the "delay the pact" game again, like he did with Lux.

	08-04-2003 01:21									#126
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Message looks good.

	08-04-2003 13:35									#127
	Put an end to popups!

Unless there is a serious objection raised within the next few hours, I hereby authorize Nimitz to hand the note over to the RP ambassador.

	10-04-2003 00:01									#128
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Well, seems like RPers are really eager to have a peek at our map... Togas the Almighty bothered himself to start a private chat with me today:

quote: Session Start: Wed Apr 09 19:27:21 2003 Session Ident: Togas Session Ident: Togas (~tom_ogas@209.78.90.10) Togas: I'm concerned that our diplomats are taking too long in getting the Protection Pact between us finalized Togas: is there anything I can do to help facilitate this? vondrack: well, Nimitz was supposed to send your ambassador a message yesterday vondrack: dunno why he did not do that Togas: I don't know either. vondrack: he was having connection problems... maybe that was the reason... vondrack: anyway vondrack: there seems to be a major problem vondrack: since Legoland is not ready to trade its map Togas: TM would be fine. vondrack: TM? Togas: territory map Togas: we were all excited about the pact in our forum until someone posted a very insightful post: Togas: "Where is legoland?" Togas: it was like we were making a pact with an imaginary nation far across the seas Togas: and the whole thing became somewhat absurd. We'd be willing to protect a land and we didn't even know where it was vondrack: vondrack: well, I understand vondrack: but that does not change our stance Togas: why so paranoid? vondrack: I do not think it is paranoia Togas: I do. Togas: We're your allies. This is basically a MPP Togas: if anyone settles on your land we'd declare war on them. Togas: This is a strong pact, something that no two nations in this game have yet done. Togas: you guys just fear we'll give the map away? Togas: why would we give it away? So other people could invade you and force us to declare war on them? vondrack: well, you see... I understand you PoV... let me try explaining ours vondrack: Legoland actually never expects any other nation to commit troops to defense of the land we call Legos - that is something we plan to handle ourselves at all times vondrack: OTOH, any "invading nation" would have to come from across the sea vondrack: either from Bob or Estonia vondrack: all the military help we might ever need would be actually needed on Bob/Estonia, not Legos vondrack: that is the PoV most of our members share vondrack: also, we do believe that the longer our map stays with us only, the better vondrack: it is not only about geography vondrack: even territory map gives quite an idea about the economy, about the potential vondrack: we prefer keeping this kind of information to ourselves vondrack: I am sorry if this is not what you'd wish vondrack: but it is a team policy I am bound to follow vondrack: no map trades vondrack: ever Togas: So if we got invaded, you would not send troops? vondrack: that is something different Togas: is it? vondrack: we WOULD commit troops vondrack: send them over vondrack: but we already have your map vondrack: so that is already covered * Togas sighs. Togas: You have our map, we don't have yours. vondrack: yes, that's how it is Togas: your team may feel that it protects your interests, but it really gives a cold shoulder to us. vondrack: sorry to hear you might understand it that way Togas: No misunderstanding at all. Togas: we'll never be able to trust you guys if you can't trust us. Togas: At some point in the game, I hope that your team can just understand that trust is a risk, but it's worth the risk sometimes. vondrack: well vondrack: I am just trying to explain a policy that was set by the team as a whole Togas: I hear you. vondrack: at this moment, it is all I can do Togas: I hope one day you'll reconsider the policy, it's far too narrow and isolationist, IMO. vondrack: it's not that it was set by a vote eons ago - there was another discussion after we got your last diplo note vondrack: still, the result was the same Togas: It's going to make things very difficult for alliances. No one likes a "one sided" alliance. vondrack: The very first draft of the alliance treaty never mentioned any map trades. The purpose of the alliance is to help the other party out if there is a need. If a moment comes and there is a need, we may reconsider our map-related policy. Right now, we feel there is no need. vondrack: would the map change anything with the treaty? with how it is worded? what it obliges both parties to? Togas: I'm not sure where we stand. I would be irresponsible to sign a treaty and no know what I'm territory I'm actually agreeing to defend. Togas: it's like signing a blank check, you know? vondrack: I understand. It is your right to not sign the treaty under these circumstances. Legoland would understand. No hard feelings. Togas: perhaps in the future when GOW's maping trip is complete and we buy their map we'll know better. vondrack: perhaps Togas: but I have to admit, getting the map of your "friend" from your enemy isn't the way we like to find things out vondrack: is GoW your enemy? vondrack: sorry to sidetrack vondrack: I was just surprised to hear so Togas: Enemy is a bit strong, I suppose Togas: Competator is more like it. vondrack: I see Togas: anyhow, maybe Nimitz and Aidun can work out something that helps bridge the gap vondrack: ok, I will tell Nimitz to get (and keep!) in touch

Summary (mostly for fun ):
1) Legoland suffers from paranoia. (Togas is sure about that)
2) RPers are our allies. (Togas claims so)
3) We are giving RPers a cold shoulder. (Togas feels so - no misunderstanding possible )
4) RPers will never be able to trust us (as we will never trust them).

I believe that this chat achieved more than the message we were getting ready to send. No need to send it anymore then. RPers know what our stance is and Togas even remained acceptably calm... let's see what they try in the next round...

	10-04-2003 13:56									#129
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Another round... shortly after Togas gave up...

quote: Session Start: Wed Apr 09 22:14:44 2003 Session Ident: #Embassy_LS * Now talking in #Embassy_LS vondrack: hello Aidun: Hi Aidun: We have some serious matters to discuss vondrack: ok, go ahead Aidun: I just heard from Togas that the MPP deal is going difficult vondrack: well, yes... your recent demand for our map is something we cannot agree to Aidun: What is your problem with it? vondrack: the problem is that Legoland does not trade its maps vondrack: general team policy Aidun: I understand that Aidun: very reasonable vondrack: the policy has always been set in stone so much that we even agreed to include clauses in our past treaties with other parties (that asked for our map as well), binding us to trade the map to THEM if we ever traded it to anyone else Aidun: What reason did you have to set that in stone, I'm just interesting vondrack: well... if others have no information about where we are and how we are set up, it seemed and still seems like a very good extra level of protection vondrack: not only from the military point of view vondrack: but from the "economy" point of view, too Aidun: you mean the trade of your map for money? vondrack: until our map becomes part of other team(s)' map(s), nobody actually knows what our status is - number of cities, their potential, weak points... nothing vondrack: which is what we kind of like vondrack: nope, I do not mean trading our map for gold later on Aidun: ok, we can have an agreement with you about trading out worldmap to others vondrack: it is just being able to play with cards nobody else is able to see vondrack: what kind of an agreement you have in mind? Aidun: Well, we can agree that we don't sell our world map to other nations, although, I have to get such an agreement approved by Togas of course vondrack: I am sorry that would not help anyway vondrack: as I explained before - if we ever trade our map to anyone, we are bound to trade it other parties, too vondrack: besides, such a clause would be VERY restricting to you - I seriously doubt it would be reasonable for you to accept it Aidun: oh yes, I understand Aidun: it would, but I rather like to explore all the opportunities first before making decisions vondrack: we can, however, include such a clause in our treaty as well (that once we trade the map to anyone, we'd be bound to trade it to you, too)... but I fear that's not what would solve the problem I understand you have vondrack: as I fully understand that signing a defense pact with someone you do not really know anything about is sort of risky Aidun: The problem we have is that we are going to defend a country that we know and which borders are defined, but of wich we have still no idea vondrack: I understand Aidun: That involves how stong our army should be Aidun: if we want to defend ourselves as well as you, we need a larger army, but how large, that depends on how large legoland is vondrack: well, I would not put it this way Aidun: what kind of army depends on what kind of terrain Legoland has vondrack: Legoland will have army large enough to defend its homeland vondrack: at all times Aidun: of course Aidun: but vondrack: to be honest, the part of the treaty that deals with "declaring war" is rather vague vondrack: what exactly does that mean? Aidun: We can come to your aid with one swordsmen, one horsmen, seven horsemen or seven swordsmen Aidun: for instance vondrack: I know... however, the exact "size" of any military help would be negotiatied on a case by case basis, I presume? vondrack: I do not think it is technically possible to cover that in the treaty vondrack: so, let's say Legoland does not expect (and the treaty does not guarantee it either) to receive military help deployed in our homeland - certainly not of any specific extent Aidun: you are right, we cannot include that and it would not be good to do so, but do you think we can have those soldiers ready at the moment whan you request them? Perhaps we are also involved in another war or we have concentrated on building. What is a treaty worth if we cannot assure you that we have enough troops? vondrack: Well, as I explained, Legoland does not really expect any other (friendly) nation to deploy troops on its soil. Any and all military help provided under such a treaty would most probably concentrate on diverting/tying forces of the enemy by attacking him on his soil, implementing trade embargoes etc. Thus, whenever you are ready to wage war with your neighbours, you are ready to help us.

I am starting to lose my patience.

Is there anyone doubting RPers actually want our map ONLY, having no true desire in the proposed defense pact?

I can see it in vivid colors... we give them our map and Togas then all of a sudden "realizes" it would be very irresponsible for Spain to enter such an alliance, as their current military is simply not up to a defense pact involving THAT much of land on the Legoland side. He would, "with the greatest grief", be forced to not sign the pact "both parties spent so much time working on."

	01-06-2003 11:47									#130
	Remove this text

Just a quick note... chatting with BigFree in the ISDG room yesterday, I touched the issue of selling them Theology for gold + no-Sistine clause. I made it totally unofficial, reluctantly mentioning the sum of 250 gold in the end, but adding all kinds of usual mumbo-jumbo about the price being difficult to set, me being certainly hung if missing the price Lego actually thinks of... and blah blah blah...

As a true RPer, BigFree immediately drew our world map into the discussion (those guys are obessed with our map ), which I promptly ruled out, but he promised to take the Theo for gold+noSistine idea to his team.

	02-06-2003 02:10									#131
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quote: As a true RPer, BigFree immediately drew our world map into the discussion (those guys are obessed with our map ), which I promptly ruled out, but he promised to take the Theo for gold+noSistine idea to his team.

Obsessed might be a bit of an understatement, Radek ... Paranoid may be more descriptive...

Their continued interest in our map despite GoW's mapping might hint that GoW hasn't traded their world map to RP like they have done with Vox. Interesting...

If so and with RP now expanding to 12 cities - they are probably puzzled as to how they are at most #3 in most categories. Given their knowledge of the Bob civs, it is highly probable that RP guesses that it is us and GS that are in front of them. This might also worry them as the 2 of us are also likely the ones RP knows least about.

With their port locations it is likely that RP has or will be sending ships to scout the nearby GS coastline and so we are the great enigma to them (and that probably frustrates them to death given their tactics so far... which seem to be based on diplomacy which also requires knowledge of the capabilities of the other civs - though they might have no clue as to how badly they are doing there as well )

	02-06-2003 11:20									#132
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Chatting with BF in the ISDG chatroom last night, just the two of us, and ended up getting some interesting information...

quote: ZargonX> I'm just waiting around for the PTWDG save from Vox... ZargonX> give me something to do BigFree> rp went through it pretty fast BigFree> how goes the war prep? ZargonX> war? ZargonX> to what do you refer? BigFree> the one you support over in Esonia BigFree> I assume that you don't send units, but cash instead to Vox BigFree> it's the logical thing to do ZargonX> nah, we don't really have much to do with that. We just like to hear stories about it ZargonX> it's much closer to your doorstep... how do you all feel about it? BigFree> Well Vox says you have been helping them immensely ZargonX> oh, but we are a modest people BigFree> LOL BigFree> we, of couse, have simpathies for Vox ZargonX> heheh, GS hasn't endeared too many people, have they? BigFree> not really. BigFree> it's a world war, 5 versus 1 ZargonX> any expeditions over to Estonia in the works for you all? BigFree> of course... BigFree> how about you? ZargonX> I doubt it highly. 'tis a far off place for us simple Lego folk... BigFree> seriously though we have comitted to sending 6 units, possibly 10 depending on things... ZargonX> that's quite a force ZargonX> and I reckon quite a suprise for GS BigFree> well, hwne you consider if you add that to what Vox has ZargonX> yes, that's definately something that can turn a tide of battle BigFree> and maybe some other Civ that may be involved too; all those units add up to trouble fro GS ZargonX> definately ZargonX> *sigh* don't think I'll be getting the turn tonight, though... ZargonX> Voxes are probably all asleep :P BigFree> I don't think it's good for GS to go unchecked, that's why I think that Lego is doing the right thing by helping out. BigFree> BH has been having connection problems ZargonX> yes, so I heard ZargonX> I think wittlich is their turn player now BigFree> ah BigFree> they need 3 BigFree> we have 4-5 ZargonX> they have another.. but I'm not sure off hand ZargonX> we have 3 at Lego now

So, what we've learned is..

-Our aid to Vox seems to pretty much be public knowledge now to everyone but GS. Guess the secret is out. I didn't ever confirm anything to him, but it's pretty clear RP knows first-hand.
-RP is sending military aid to Vox. I for one wasn't expecting that...
-Another part is sending units to help Vox. I'm going to assume it's GoW, as they have indicated such elsewhere.
-Everyone is going on the premise that GS is too powerful a team to be left in a strong position. This is good for us, as I see it, because that means more time for us to solidify our position while everyone else is off fighting.

	02-06-2003 11:56									#133
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yep, that's very good news. The only bad thing is that the Bobians are united against a common enemy, which is worrying. Hopefully after this they will turn against each other, but that's not sure. They may see us as the next big threat.

ZargonX: this time for the chat

	02-06-2003 13:54									#134
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I can confirm what ZargonX found out by information from other source, though BigFree's speculation about our money aiding Voxes' cause is mostly just that - a speculation. All he probably heard from BetaHound was that we are "helping immensely", as he put it - which is true. All that gold, techs, and even intel from time to time... keep in mind that BetaHound will use the fact we are on their side to draw other allies in, though he will probably be reluctant to disclose how exactly we are involved... People like to be on the stronger side...

I even had a chat with Master Zen once... he knew we were helping a lot, but did not know what exactly was the form of our help... and I did not tell him directly, either. So it is a public secret, but one that keeps others less than fully informed... Zargon's way of confirming the fact, while not giving more details is exactly what we should keep doing.

BigFree's information now confirms and explains the vague info from BetaHound I have had even before - he indicated something like that RPers offered "more than spiritual support " some time ago, but would not tell me more. GoW is the other team providing military support, yes.

And regarding ND - I heard that during the rule of [DG]mav_son, ND's relations with other Bobians deteriorated a lot... to an extent of making them a likely target of the next war. With Darekill (who has been credited with notable successes in the diplo arena by that same person... though I honestly can't remember who it was now) now probably running the team again, things may have changed since then. But what I heard was that ND was helping with resources (horses) only, no direct military involvement.

	02-06-2003 17:50									#135
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With RP helping Vox will need to keep an eye on its back I don't trust them, we should also keep an on voxes back to warn them if any thing happens if we can.

	06-06-2003 08:26									#136
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We should send an official Theology offer to RP. 200 gold + NDA + self-copying no-sistine?

	06-06-2003 12:24									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep We should send an official Theology offer to RP. 200 gold + NDA + self-copying no-sistine?

I suggest we wait for them to contact us. Here is a log of my chat with BigFree, their FAM, last night. Read it, it is quite interesting...

quote: Session Start: Fri Jun 06 01:29:23 2003 Session Ident: BigFree Session Ident: BigFree (~bigfree1@c-66-229-58-234.we.client2.attbi.com) BigFree: hey vond can you chat a bit about the PTWDG? vondrack: yep vondrack: though - keep in mind, please, I am in no official position in Lego now BigFree: I understand BigFree: Vox's situation looks bad but not hopeless to me; what's your take? vondrack: well, I agree vondrack: bad, but hopefully not hopless vondrack: hopeless vondrack: I haven't heard from BetaHound for some time vondrack: so I am lacking a good idea about their shape vondrack: they will need to reclaim that iron, that's for sure BigFree: RP is discussing giving them Iron BigFree: it's 50/50 vondrack: well, anything that slows GS down and gives them troubles, helps you, us, and everybody else... BigFree: howmuch more help can Lego give though and expect Vox to survive vondrack: we would probably give them that iron, if having the possibility vondrack: but we will not be able to until Astronomy vondrack: so all we can do is provide them with money BigFree: do you look at it at some point as thowing money at a problem that won't be solved? vondrack: you mean - like "wasting" money? BigFree: right vondrack: well... could very well be the case at this very moment. But as I said - anything that gives troubles to GS is good for us (and you, too) vondrack: so it is not really "wasting" money BigFree: If RP gave Vox Iron, would Lego be willing to go public with their support towards Vox and RP? vondrack: what would we (and anybody else, for that matter) gain by going public? BigFree: Maybe even sign an Alliance against GS? BigFree: It would make GS think twice about landing on Bob or Legoland vondrack: nah... I do not believe GS would attempt to land on Bob or Lego vondrack: not in the foreseeable future BigFree: they wouldn't wnat to spread theri troops out to far with the chance that troops could come to them from many directions. vondrack: they need to get rid of Voxes first BigFree: right, but after that is what we are worried about vondrack: yeah, right... after that - so we better try hard there is no "after that" vondrack: and that is best done privately, I believe BigFree: Would Lego be willing to Embargo GS? BigFree: not that you trade much anyways vondrack: yes, right... not that we would be trading anything... vondrack: I would have to ask my teammates about this, I really do not dare to gauge the team opinion vondrack: with the foolish GS approach to trading vondrack: it is actually pretty easy to embargo them BigFree: true BigFree: Since RP's involvement would be for the good of all teams, is ther any deals that lego could cut of RP's behalf that would help to compensate for our willingsness to go to war with GS over this Iron issue? vondrack: hm... do you have anything specific in mind? BigFree: like cheaper tech, gold, anything else you can offer BigFree: we need to mass produce untis to really have a good chance at helping Vox vondrack: that is always a possibility, yes (cheaper techs & gold) vondrack: I am sorry if I sound a bit... vague BigFree: good, maybe you can ask you team to submit a proposal that would do so if we agree to give Vox Iron and take the brunt of GS'es unhappinesss. vondrack: but the thing is that we are impatiently waiting for the save BigFree: we just finnished BigFree: what are you guys waiting for? vondrack: because we have switched our gov and will now see how we are doing under Rep BigFree: ah, nice! vondrack: we will be much wiser then BigFree: yes you will BigFree: were you despot before? vondrack: yes BigFree: or just Monarchy BigFree: ok BigFree: My team made a bad decison to go to Monarchy long before me vondrack: I believe that I can say we WILL join the anti-GS coalition (as if we were not part of it already) vondrack: just that I am not sure if we need to go public with that BigFree: no, not really BigFree: but if you can help RP out, that would be enough vondrack: was switching to Mon a bad idea? BigFree: no, but not switching to Republic is vondrack: I see vondrack: well, BF... let's try this BigFree: They were unaware of the no weariness in MP vondrack: have your FAM dept come up with some sort of an idea regarding Lego aid to RP vondrack: I do not think we would rush to throw techs and gold at you without being prompted BigFree: LOL vondrack: but if you send us a clear proposal vondrack: we will sure do our best vondrack: as a matter of fact vondrack: there was a post by our current Prez today vondrack: asking for strengthening ties with you vondrack: this would be a great way to do so vondrack: as you correctly pointed out few days ago vondrack: "cheapness" is relative vondrack: so asking for "cheap" techs will get us nowhere vondrack: you need to state the price BigFree: cool ; besides Theology what other techs do you have and what are you researching now, if you can say? vondrack: ATM, we are ready to trade Theology - that is the only tech we have available for trade vondrack: I mean - we do not have any other discovered yet vondrack: researching Education vondrack: no idea on ETA vondrack: will be wiser once we get the save vondrack: most probably, we will go for Astronomy then vondrack: but that also depends on how our Theo deals go BigFree: ok, thanks for the info. we are waiting on recieving Chiv from GoW as you are too. vondrack: if we fail to reasonably "secure" Sistine's, we may need to go for Bach's, delaying Astronomy vondrack: Bach's = Music Theory BigFree: Ihate those techs vondrack: which would delay Astronomy vondrack: Astronomy = possibility to trade resources/luxuries vondrack: so, we are not sure yet vondrack: too many variables BigFree: I would rathe have Copernicus(Astronomy) than Bachs vondrack: vondrack: not us vondrack: we lack luxuries vondrack: happiness problems vondrack: we need wonders that help to keep the pop happy BigFree: we can trade luxes to you after you get Astronomy, so that might change things for you. vondrack: hehe... but that is just replacing one problem with another - by "trading" for other luxuries, we need to spend resources (gold, techs...) vondrack: which is basically the same as using the lux slider BigFree: right, it waht ever offer's the better situation at the time vondrack: so, while we do look forward to being able to trade luxuries, we know we must not rely on the lux trade too much BigFree: understandable BigFree: we will get back to you with a proposal on the aid package vondrack: we'll see... anyway, we will be happy to support your involvement in the Vox-GS war vondrack: yes, great BigFree: thnaks for the chat vond vondrack: my pleasure BigFree: RP and Lego can be great friends vondrack: LoL vondrack: we just need to keep Togas aside... BigFree: we can have tea parties BigFree: OK BigFree: LOL vondrack: right, I am off to bed now vondrack: g'night! BigFree: good night, sleep well vondrack: thanks vondrack: bye Session Close: Fri Jun 06 02:00:36 2003

	06-06-2003 12:34									#138
	Remove this text

Now, I can feel a GOLDEN CHANCE here. We can make RPers much friendlier towards us, while having them fight (read: fight for us), and while having them hamper GS progress. Isn't it just splendid? Two greatest rivals of ours would engage in a war...

I believe I am right when I interpret the chat with BigFree as "RPers seriously consider starting their own war against GS, quite independent of the Voxian effort." I admit it is a good idea from their side, one that shows even RPers have guts - for them, it is much better to hit GS sooner, rather than later (ATM, they have an ally that can provide them with a beachhead, troops etc.). And it is quite natural that RPers would become GS' target at one moment or another.

So, I suggest we wait for RPers' "aid package request". Then, let's be generous... as long as we can get the no-Sistine clause, let's agree to just about anything. 50g and no-Sistine? Uh oh, well ya know, it's so damn cheap... but what the hell, we want to help you! Have it for 50g and no-Sistine. I really believe we should be quite generous now - the generosity is what will keep our potential enemies warring each other instead of going after us...

	06-06-2003 12:51									#139
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Actually I was thinking to give them Theology for 0 gold + no-Sistine + no-Bach's. I mean, while 50 gold doesn't mean too much for us (2 barb camps) giving a tech for free has a much stronger psychological effect than charging them for it, even with a low sum.

We could even agree on a no-Copernicus clause, since we don't really want to build it.

That's for now. We will be much wiser after seing how things are going for is in Republic.

Last edited by Tiberius on 06-06-2003 at 13:20

	06-06-2003 13:31									#140
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Actually I was thinking to give them Theology for 0 gold + no-Sistine + no-Bach's. I mean, while 50 gold doesn't mean too much for us (2 barb camps) giving a tech for free has a much stronger psychological effect than charging them for it, even with a low sum.

Agreed. 50 gold is an expendable amount and providing a tech for free would make us look much better. Though I would still wait for RPers to come up with their own "request" - who knows, maybe we would be giving too much... or, we can make a much better impression by eventually asking even less than what they will wish to pay.

Also, I would not push for Bach's too much - I consider it quite unlikely that another team would research Music Theory. GS will be having troubles enough with their wars, RPers just as well, GoW agreed to waive it, Voxes are in no position to even try, and ND... well, that is the only unknown...

Once we secure Sistine's (IF we secure it, that is), we will be free to build Bach's first - considering our position in the world research, especially in the Edu branch of the tech tree, I believe we would have no problems getting Bach's.

quote: We could even agree on a no-Copernicus clause, since we don't really want to build it.

I would not mention it, unless they ask for it. Unless we are able to "secure" the wonders we want, we shall better have some backup ones to build in case someone beats us to the "key" ones (with wars going on, there will always be a possibility and we have already waived Leo's).

	06-06-2003 13:55									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Though I would still wait for RPers to come up with their own "request" - who knows, maybe we would be giving too much... or, we can make a much better impression by eventually asking even less than what they will wish to pay.

Agreed. Let them make the first move. I was merely speculating about what would be acceptable for us.


re: Copernicus

quote: I would not mention it, unless they ask for it.

Sure.

	10-06-2003 04:00									#142
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I just talked with Aidun on IRC; Nimitz, Aidun says he sent you a PM about two months ago, but didn't receive a reply (he also said his mailbox has been full occassionally since then). He also said he was looking to intensify contact between Lego and Spain.

I wonder if they're actually going to send us anything... perhaps we should remind them about Theo.

	10-06-2003 04:46									#143
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Well what was the PM about, if know that I could say if I got it and read it. Also I've already started reving up contact with RP talked to Bigfree their FAM 3 days ago. I've been on farly often to talk in fact I have talked to vox and in passing some of the other teams.

	10-06-2003 06:15									#144
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The chat was not what we wanted, RP is not helping Vox directly it seem they tricked Vox and are trying to trick us, but this is what we have come to expect from Rp. Anyways without further adu here the chat.

quote: [19:00] Nimitz> the people [19:00] * Sharpe has joined #RP-Lego [19:00] Sharpe> Hi! [19:00] Nimitz> so whats up [19:01] Aidun> Hi Nimitz and Kloreep [19:01] * Nimitz sets mode: +k whyarewehere [19:01] Aidun> Is Sharp a member of your team? [19:02] Nimitz> yes [19:02] Kloreep> I have to go soon, BTW... [19:02] Nimitz> kloreep said you had some quetions for me [19:02] Aidun> Well, then hi to Sharp too [19:02] Aidun> Yes I have [19:02] Aidun> about the aid [19:02] Nimitz> yes [19:03] Aidun> We have a few problems [19:03] Nimitz> you've pinned it down some what [19:03] Nimitz> ok what are they [19:03] Aidun> let me copy it from the chat with Kloreep [19:04] Nimitz> ok go for it [19:04] Aidun> can you tell me what your team is willing to give us for aid, because we are heavily debating what we will ask Legoland [19:04] Nimitz> is this pasted or you asking me [19:05] Aidun> this was posted and now I'm asking you [19:05] Nimitz> well this is a harder question [19:06] * Kloreep is now known as Kloreep-AFK [19:06] Nimitz> we were kinda waiting for you request [19:07] Nimitz> what do you have need of money [19:07] Nimitz> tehc [19:07] Nimitz> moral support [19:07] Aidun> The reason why we are debating what we will aSk is because of the other problem, which I will also literally copy from the chat with Kloreep [19:08] Aidun> Aidun> The problem we also have is that you guys are sitting behind the scenes, while we are the ones that will be attacked. We prefer not to engage in war with GS. [19:09] Nimitz> yes most would if they could [19:09] Nimitz> infact we have stayed out of sight [19:10] Kloreep-AFK> Have to go; bye! [19:10] Aidun> Therefor, our price would be quite high, very much higher than just the price of iron [19:10] Aidun> bye [19:10] Nimitz> bye [19:10] Sharpe> bye [19:10] * Kloreep-AFK has quit IRC (Quit: ) [19:11] Nimitz> well if things go the way Vox hopes they'll have there Iron back [19:12] Nimitz> any ways so your having trouble setting the right price [19:12] Aidun> We bet that things will not go as Vox hopes, we have info that the Voxian army is calling up children and old people to fight in the war: they are almost exhausted [19:13] Nimitz> GS has to be hurting too [19:14] Aidun> yes, but their defences are still intact [19:14] Nimitz> so are Voxes [19:14] Aidun> have you seen them? [19:14] Nimitz> no but I know there have been no attacks on the Vox cities [19:15] Aidun> well, I haven't seen it, but from what I heard two days ago, is that Vox is using its citydefences to fight [19:16] Nimitz> ok well lets get buiness [19:16] Nimitz> let me ask you some thing [19:17] Nimitz> have you heared any thing on GoW [19:17] Aidun> What should I have heard? [19:18] Nimitz> I don't know some on my team are asking questions [19:19] Nimitz> ok back to vox [19:19] Aidun> what are they like? [19:19] Aidun> the questions? [19:20] Nimitz> your wanting us to give you enough money fund your war with GS [19:21] Nimitz> not much just wondering what there up to [19:21] Nimitz> they saw a few of them in a privet chat room planning [19:21] Nimitz> they don't know what [19:22] Aidun> Well, not to fund our war [19:22] Aidun> To fund our risk to get in war with GS' [19:23] Nimitz> what you think GS could build enough transports to hurt you [19:23] Nimitz> ??? [19:24] Aidun> They already have these transports, from what I've heard, at least five [19:25] Aidun> and they have the lighthouse so they can safely travel over sea [19:26] Nimitz> well so how much are think you need to be safe [19:27] * Disconnected Session Close: Mon Jun 09 19:27:31 2003 Session Start: Mon Jun 09 19:27:51 2003 Session Ident: #RP-Lego [19:27] * Now talking in #RP-Lego [19:28] Nimitz> got disconnected [19:28] Aidun> I saw that [19:28] Aidun> did you got the last things I said to you? [19:28] Nimitz> no [19:28] Aidun> you did [19:29] Aidun> Aidun> They already have these transports, from what I've heard, at least five [19:29] Aidun> Aidun> and they have the lighthouse so they can safely travel over sea [19:29] Aidun> Nimitz> well so how much are think you need to be safe [19:29] Nimitz> was it after the how mch [19:30] Nimitz> ok so as said [19:30] Aidun> say a tech and additional gold per turn? [19:31] Nimitz> such as? [19:32] Aidun> we know that you have theology, but do you also have chivalry? [19:32] Nimitz> I'll check [19:33] Nimitz> not quite we are working on it [19:34] Aidun> how many turns are left before you have it? [19:34] Nimitz> Checking [19:35] Nimitz> soon but how soon is a quetion [19:35] Nimitz> we change govs and we need to work all the chages out [19:35] * Disconnected Session Close: Mon Jun 09 19:35:54 2003 Session Start: Mon Jun 09 19:39:20 2003 Session Ident: #RP-Lego [19:39] * Now talking in #RP-Lego [19:39] Nimitz2> back [19:39] Aidun> problems? [19:39] Sharpe> err, there are 2 Nimitzs here [19:39] Nimitz2> I'm on a Dail up [19:40] Nimitz2> it got unstable had to reconnect [19:40] Nimitz2> I can kill the other [19:40] Aidun> I'll copy the last phrases [19:40] Aidun> Aidun> we know that you have theology, but do you also have chivalry? [19:40] Aidun> Nimitz> I'll check [19:40] Aidun> Nimitz> not quite we are working on it [19:40] Aidun> Aidun> how many turns are left before you have it? [19:40] Aidun> Nimitz> Checking [19:40] Aidun> Nimitz> soon but how soon is a quetion [19:40] Aidun> Aidun> Can you be a little bit more exact? [19:41] -> *nickserv* ghost Nimitz 322757 [19:41] * Nimitz has quit IRC (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Nimitz2))) [19:41] Nimitz2> there [19:41] Nimitz2> just a sec [19:43] Nimitz2> were 11 at turn but it lible to extend to 15 do to the changes [19:44] Aidun> you had to raise the luxury slider? [19:44] Sharpe> Aidun, we just changed to Republic as you have probably seen so we haven't quite figured out what luxuries/gold/tech settings we are using [19:46] Aidun> very well, I will report that you will have chiv in 15 turns [19:46] Nimitz2> yes so don't be supprised if the info changes [19:46] Aidun> Do you want to give us additional Gpt? [19:46] Sharpe> if that changes we will let you know [19:47] Aidun> ok [19:47] Aidun> But do you want to give us additional Gpt? [19:47] Nimitz2> um lets see we prefer doing lump sume [19:47] Nimitz2> sums [19:47] Aidun> can you make a proposal? [19:48] Nimitz2> I can try but nothing I say is official it has to be voted on [19:48] Aidun> Same to me, the King has to decide [19:50] Sharpe> Don't forget , our slider discussion also affects our gold per turn situation [19:50] Aidun> yes, I understand, I don't mind, I am but interested in what you are willing to give [19:51] Nimitz2> I think we could spare a 150 gold lump sum but that could and may change with our current schation [19:51] Nimitz2> situation [19:51] Nimitz2> we may be able to do more or les [19:51] Nimitz2> s [19:52] Aidun> ok I will take all into account [19:52] Nimitz2> say for now 75 [19:52] Aidun> I will return with this to the King and await his reply [19:52] Nimitz2> then we can deside from there [19:54] Sharpe> Are you talking to anyone else about attacking GS - wondering if we are going to get multiple requests of aid [19:54] Sharpe> aside from Vox of course [19:56] Aidun> No, we are in discussion with noone other than you and again, our intention is not to attack GS. IF they attack us, alas, then we have war, but we would at first like to keep the peace with GS [20:03] Sharpe> oh so this is a "just in case" situation then? [20:03] Sharpe> sorry for hanging you there, Nimitz was trying to help me with something on mIRC [20:06] Aidun> ok [20:06] Aidun> it is a just in case situation. [20:08] Aidun> But I have to go now. Perhaps BigFree will send you an offer from us for aid today, otherwise tomorrow. [20:08] Sharpe> k [20:08] Nimitz2> bye [20:08] Sharpe> bye [20:09] Aidun> bye

	10-06-2003 06:26									#145
	Inflate your Upload Space

I was in the chat too and I agree with Nimitz's assessment.

RP seems to be talking now about a potential GS attack on them (which is very unlikely given the war with Vox even if they do give iron to Vox).

It is highly possible that this is another RP trap where they talk and do nothing and could use this to tell GS that we are willing to support against GS. Something similar happened in the Lux war from what we have been told they had the defensive pact with Lux but told ND that they wouldn't honour it if Lux attacked and ND should try to provoke Lux to attack - this is typical of RP's style...

I wonder if we should consider turning the tables on RP by informing GS that RP contacted us about providing support against GS. The only problem would be how to avoid GS questions about supporting Vox.

Based on this latest chat, we really need to find out what GoW is doing in 3 turns ASAP.

	10-06-2003 10:27									#146
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

After chatting with MZ, Bigfree wanted a chat also! Phew!

quote: BigFree> ZargonX, can you chat right now? ZargonX> sure! BigFree> cool BigFree> hvae you heard form your ambassador as to his talks with ours? BigFree> PTWDG ZargonX> yes, I have ZargonX> read through the logs earlier BigFree> ok, I want to make a counter offer now, it is something that RP feels strongly about because of what we are putting at risjk here, while Lego get's to keep it's nose clean, so to speak. ZargonX> go ahead BigFree> Angering GS cannot be taken lightly BigFree> we wnat Theology now and Chiv when you get it for us giving Vox Iron. ZargonX> well, I'll have to take it to the team, of course ZargonX> has the iron trade gone through already? BigFree> oue own reasearching will have to take a backseat when GS decalres war on us BigFree> no it hasn't BigFree> we are 1-2 turns from hooking it up ZargonX> and you feel positive that GS will attempt an invasion of Bob in retribution? BigFree> most definately BigFree> they have easy access across the sea tiles BigFree> due to the Light House BigFree> they have made it clear in the public frorum that they would decalre war on us ZargonX> true BigFree> they feel that Vox is evil, and that any who help them are with the "axis of Evil" ZargonX> heh ZargonX> ok, can you PM a draft of the proposal so I can put it up for review? BigFree> we promise to help conceal Lego's involvement also BigFree> sure ZargonX> then we can get back to you aSAP BigFree> good ZargonX> great! BigFree> thanks for the caht ZargonX> I'll let you know as soon as we've had a chance to talk about it ZargonX> no problem! BigFree> cool BigFree> bye ZargonX> later!

	10-06-2003 10:44									#147
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

And there officialy offer from Bigfree:

quote: Hey ZargonX Referencing our chat; Role Play offers to trade Iron to Vox while Lego gives Role Play Theology now and Chivarly on the turn it is available to Lego. BigFree

	11-06-2003 17:15									#148
	Put an end to popups!

Hey did they nt get my PM I crrected my self on the chivalry tech oh they are wanting a chat and I want atleast two people to back me up when we do this or a official reply saying we are nolonger doing the deal at voxes request.

	11-06-2003 18:32									#149
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Nimitz Hey did they nt get my PM I crrected my self on the chivalry tech oh they are wanting a chat and I want atleast two people to back me up when we do this or a official reply saying we are nolonger doing the deal at voxes request.

Nimitz, I believe it would be enough to PM RPers that we have asked Voxes to express their (dis)interest in obtaining iron from RPers - and that so far, we haven't been asked to go ahead with the deal.

As providing Voxes with RPers' iron was the ONLY thing RPers offered (they expressly ruled out military actions against GS), I would suggest telling RPers we will get back to them once Voxes ask us. It makes no sense to discuss the deal any further until Voxes say they want us to proceed with the deal.

	11-06-2003 18:59									#150
	Put an end to popups!

This is probably another case of RPers playing mind games. I would rather sit this game out.