24-06-2003 05:57									#151
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After securing the no Sistine clause from GS, I tried to talk to BigFree, to secure even the very last team - RPers. But... kids... that was SOME fun!

quote: Session Start: Tue Jun 24 01:22:17 2003 Session Ident: #Happy * Now talking in #Happy vondrack: yup, here BigFree: yeah BigFree: I love mIRC * Togas has joined #happy Togas: hello vondrack: hello, Togas! * BigFree sets mode: +oo Togas vondrack Togas: Vond, you oughta join Team Sunshine BigFree: we were talking about the Theology proposal Lego made to us Togas: which one? vondrack: nah... no more DGs for me, thank you vondrack: getting tired of them a bit... too much agenda for me BigFree: its not a busy game, just for fun, we would not give you a job. vondrack: all these late night chats Togas: it's a silly game anyhow. No stress BigFree: jus a forum to read when you felt like it. vondrack: see, I have this problem vondrack: I am getting easily TOO involved vondrack: Togas: Vond, perhaps you would like to join the FAM team and take BigFree's spot? BigFree: see, I can give you access, but you do not have to post vondrack: no, please - I know I am so lame in resisting temptations BigFree: LOL vondrack: anyway - Togas, I told BigFree that GoW & ND rose in power a lot vondrack: over the last 2-3 turns vondrack: noticed that while playing our last turn Togas: we're getting close to Chivalry. That's when things will get messy. vondrack: yes vondrack: we suspect GoW & ND acquired Chivalry vondrack: that would explain that steep increase in their power Togas: it's possible, but on the same turn? vondrack: strange, I agree - but see the graph for yourself vondrack: it kinda stroke me... and made me wonder what's going on vondrack: anyway, I may be seeing ghosts BigFree: They both have recently built cities too vondrack: right, could be it, too - frankly, GoW would be supposed to tell us they'd be getting close to Chivalry vondrack: and there was no word from them vondrack: who knows... BigFree: I'm looking at the lst 3 saves, and the cost for Chiv did not drop BigFree: so, it's unlikely they got it Togas: we've given them some leeway with their current revolution, but we'll grab MZ and get him to talk to us next chance we get BigFree: perhaps they both have built cities and both have upgraded some other units. vondrack: hm, then it may be their cities just expanded or something vondrack: mind you - all I saw was just the powergraph Togas: mind if we ask ... what's going to happen to Vox? vondrack: no word from anywhere regarding anything vondrack: Vox? Togas: I mean, GS keeps talking about resettlement like it's a done deal vondrack: most probably, they will go to exile vondrack: yes, Togas: where are they going? BigFree: "Serect Island" Togas: Fantasy Island? vondrack: I hope I am not breaching any secrecy clause here vondrack: they will go to Legos Minor Togas: Cool vondrack: that's part of our landmass vondrack: cool? vondrack: do you like the idea? BigFree: North? Togas: Cool of you guys to do that. vondrack: yes, the Northern part Togas: That north-western peninsula. BigFree: ok, sounds like you guys have some new life long friends vondrack: it's mostly mountains, no fresh water - I would not really want to start there vondrack: but they have little choice BigFree: LOL BigFree: Are you giving them a city there vondrack: we believe it's better to have Voxes alive than dead BigFree: or do they sail there vondrack: both, I believe BigFree: ah vondrack: I mean vondrack: city, sure vondrack: sail, most probably BigFree: right, they said they have Galleys to load vondrack: though GS is developing some sort of smart way to "hopping" them there in one big transfer vondrack: strange enough - GS seem to be genuinely keen on vondrack: getting rid of Voxes quietly Togas: wonder why? vondrack: they signed this peace treaty and now they are even offering "expertise" vondrack: helping Voxes to resettle vondrack: perhaps they realized their big PR problem vondrack: and try doing something about it BigFree: exatly Togas: We've been too helpful to them about it BigFree: they realized the nightmare they had vondrack: LoL vondrack: yes, too helpful vondrack: but then... it's supposed to be just a game, is it not? vondrack: it was getting to a situation it was no longer fun Togas: true, and I just got tired of having to suffer through their bad PR BigFree: not that opinons wil change over time, GS will still be seen as the "meanies" vondrack: yes vondrack: sigh BigFree: you can't changed a zebras stripes BigFree: without skinning him, that i! vondrack: I know I did go quite far last time, during that "Lego-GS cold war" ) vondrack: but I got somehow turned up by how that public thread was developing Togas: The public thread really went south in a hurry. vondrack: yup BigFree: it really did, it was shameful vondrack: I even talked to some GS members in private BigFree: hehe vondrack: they really DID take that very personally vondrack: dunno why BigFree: they contacted me too, asking for advice to improve relations. vondrack: I perceived that as part of the game vondrack: this "public opinion" bullshit... ) vondrack: as if anyone cared... BigFree: lol BigFree: true BigFree: but it does say alot for how GS hard targets on theri asses when the game started nad got reinforced when they acted as the did in public threads vondrack: right BigFree: they id nothing to help themselves vondrack: they seem to be really deep into their "honour code" BigFree: HAHA BigFree: they are deeply into wining vondrack: not exactly sure what that is, as they did not tell anyone vondrack: I am not trying to ridicule that at this moment Togas: It's really a matter of egos and being "right." They are very consumed with being right and will argue the matter to death. vondrack: they may be honest vondrack: but they do it the wrong way vondrack: yes, agreed with you, Togas Togas: I need to head out. I'm at work now, closing things up, and need to go shopping for dinner. vondrack: k, see you! BigFree: lets talk about that Theology deal or other tech deals vond Togas: see you later vondrack: ah, Theo! BigFree: bye vondrack: forgot about it again BigFree: lol vondrack: bye, Togas! Togas: bye * Togas has left #happy vondrack: well - as I said, the no Sistine clause is unlikely to be lifted BigFree: we are researching it opurselves right now vondrack: we are short of luxuries and the Sistine's seems to be vital to us BigFree: for like the last 6-8 turns, I dont remeber exactly vondrack: hm... any prearranged deals? BigFree: no deals yet vondrack: ok, I will be honest BigFree: but we would consider letting you have the monoploy on it vondrack: you will get none - all others signed deals with us vondrack: you are the last ones vondrack: so - I guess it would really be better to come to some sort of a reasonable deal BigFree: everyone else already signed "do not build" agreements? vondrack: everyone else is getting Theo from us vondrack: that's all I can say, I believe BigFree: 12: 4) 1 BigFree: well if other teams can build it, then why exclude RP? vondrack: it actually works both ways vondrack: you know it's better to focus on a different wonder vondrack: we know we can focus on this one vondrack: and frankly vondrack: with the number of luxuries you have access to vondrack: we thought that you would not be eager to invest 600 shilelds into something that needs 160-shield cathedrals to work vondrack: *shields vondrack: which we seem to have no choice but to go for vondrack: little choice vondrack: not no choice vondrack: all you actually need is marketplaces vondrack: I wish it was so easy for us vondrack: anyways - no intention to sound like I am whining here BigFree: true, we do have a few luxeries; but we are Religeous, so Cathedrals are cheaper for us. Sistine has been on the table for a long time now. vondrack: ah, forgot of that vondrack: religious, right BigFree: plus it helps our GA, If we need one BigFree: We could guarantee not to go for Bachs vondrack: vondrack: nice BigFree: or even promise a permanent lux deal vondrack: I am afraid that will probably not work... we are not really hard pressed for gold or anything, so trading Theo needs to bring some kind of a benefit to us vondrack: all we can think of ATM is the no-wonder clause BigFree: but you do need luxuries vondrack: everybody does BigFree: 12: 4) 1 BigFree: so, would not a combined deal of luxeries and gold get Theology? vondrack: btw.. is Oracle not religious? BigFree: I mean the slider can used if you have excess gold BigFree: I would think that it is vondrack: I know it's a pretty lame wonder, but as far as the GA-trigger effect goes, it would be much cheaper to spend 200 shields on the Oracle than 600 shields on Sistine... BigFree: HAHA BigFree: yes, since it is defucnt with the advent of Theo vondrack: right - I pointed out I was talking about the GA-trigger effect only BigFree: sure BigFree: lets table Theoo for a bit BigFree: do you have any other techs to offer for sale? vondrack: sure, np vondrack: not ATM BigFree: are you sure vondrack: and you? probably not... since you are doing Theo yourselves vondrack: sure - re: techs? BigFree: yes vondrack: yes, sure vondrack: we do not have any other tech for sale vondrack: just a minute BigFree: I can think of Republic, unless it is not for sale. vondrack: I am just checking it vondrack: hmmm - seems Republic would be available for sale, yes vondrack: completely forgot about it vondrack: the NDA has been over for quite some time BigFree: well, we are "browsing" right now for tehs vondrack: so - sorry, yes, Republic would be available vondrack: BigFree! BigFree: what kind of sdiscount price does Lego have for its most favored nation trading Civ? BigFree: what vondrack: you do not think of getting two techs basically for free, do you? BigFree: hmm? vondrack: sorry - I was thinking you would like to get Rep+Theo for no-Sistine BigFree: 12; 4) 1 vondrack: reading too much into it, I guess vondrack: or not? BigFree: lol, i can ask my team though BigFree: Rep+Theo for no-Sistine?? thats it? vondrack: if you "can" ask your team, I would "have" to ask mine BigFree: I might be able to get them to go Bachs instead vondrack: it sounds horrible... but Rep is old stuff... hmm... BigFree: truthfully, we have prebuilt for Sistine vondrack: really? BigFree: do not tell anyone though vondrack: lips sealed BigFree: good BigFree: I would be lynched for telling anyone BigFree: Did you notice our Palace "jump" vondrack: yes, we did BigFree: 12: 4) 1 BigFree: my plan BigFree: workewd very nice vondrack: good idea - Madrid was poorly located BigFree: yes BigFree: we saw immediate results vondrack: I can imagine that BigFree: so, if my team wont go for the Theo-Rep combo for No-Sistine....what is the price for Rep alone? vondrack: no idea - we haven't discussed that option at all BigFree: ah vondrack: I would have to post and ask others BigFree: about... BigFree: in you opinion only vondrack: as you could see - I did not even realize we were able to trade it BigFree: nothing official vondrack: BF, I am not going to say any figure here BigFree: sure, np vondrack: I would prefer to see that no-wonder deal come through vondrack: so let's try that first BigFree: I understand BigFree: I will push that for you vondrack: great, thanks BigFree: Bachs would still be nice BigFree: not a bad consulation vondrack: consulation? vondrack: ah, consolation! vondrack: right BigFree: to the Sistine we are prebuilding BigFree: sorry BigFree: typpos' galore fom BigFree vondrack: but that needs Edu and Music Theory, right? BigFree: yes BigFree: 12: 4( 1 BigFree: looks as if it might change our plans BigFree: that why team might not like it vondrack: understood BigFree: hmm BigFree: aren't you doing Education? vondrack: yes, we are BigFree: hmm BigFree: since we are part wat the theo now... BigFree: *way BigFree: maybe we can do a further deal BigFree: to guarantee you Sistine BigFree: you follow me? vondrack: yes vondrack: to guarantee us Sistine - and? BigFree: How about Rep-Theo-Educ for No Sistine-plus some gold vondrack: uhhhh... BF, you still aware of who you are talking with? BigFree: LOL BigFree: yes BigFree: its justthat we are pretty mush dead set on building the Sistine BigFree: it would take something drastic to change it vondrack: Rep+Theo for no-Sist sounded like a doable deal, but this "new" idea - well, that's not doable vondrack: we can agree to a free race to Sistine then BigFree: Ican take both proposals to my team, your and mine and see what they say BigFree: maybe we can offer you a free lux also BigFree: for x number of turns vondrack: ok, let's take the ideas to our teams and see BigFree: That way in the future you cna still trade your two for another two luxeries vondrack: sorry - getting really tired here BigFree: no problem BigFree: RP really wnats to work with lego more in the future BigFree: more than GS BigFree: more than GoW BigFree: more than anyother team vondrack: good... I was almost getting scared that you might like ND more than us ) BigFree: HAHA BigFree: I will talk to you later then vondrack: ok, then - good night, BF! BigFree: good night vondrack: take care vondrack: bye BigFree: you too Session Close: Tue Jun 24 02:23:28 2003

Now, let me put it straight: I am 99% sure they are bluffing (read: lying). If you have a look at their cities, you will find out they have only two that could remotely match our Legopolis - Zaragoza and Pamplona. They would have to be CRAZY to use any of them for a wonder instead of "useful" production - troops and infrastructure.

Yeah, they want to build a 600 shield wonder just to partially trigger their GA. Sure. In a city with ~10 spt, sure. 60 turn build. Sure. We will build both Bach's and Sistine's in the same time in Legopolis (will be @ 20spt with the cathedral).

I am quite pissed off. Talking to Zargon, Sharpe, and Kloreep, we seemed to agree that we shall call their bluff and let them be - if they become reasonable, fine, let them have Theo+Rep (but no more) for no-Sistine. But no way in hell they are getting anything else.

	24-06-2003 16:25									#152
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I think that even a Theo+Rep for a no-Sistine clause is more than they deserve. No one got Theo from us so cheap. Screw this "most favoured nation" thing, I'm sick of it. They've never given us anything. What they are doing now is called extorsion. Not in his wildest sexual dream could someone imagine that we would give away a Theo+Rep+Edu deal for free.

Let's call their bluff. Theo+Rep for no-Sistine+money or luxuries: sure. But no more than that. Do they want a wonder race? Good; now that the war is over, we need some excitement Besides, don't forget: we have experience in winning wonder-races

	24-06-2003 17:04									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I think that even a Theo+Rep for a no-Sistine clause is more than they deserve. No one got Theo from us so cheap. Screw this "most favoured nation" thing, I'm sick of it. They've never given us anything. What they are doing now is called extorsion. Not in his wildest sexual dream could someone imagine that we would give away a Theo+Rep+Edu deal for free.

Agreed 100%. The "most favoured nation" status is less than a hollow word. They are actually acting as if they were our only enemy in this world. No other team has even come close to their level of hostility and "difficulty" when it comes to trading.

I would, however, agree to trade Rep+Theo for no-Sistine, as that would effectively secure Bach's and Sistine's for us, which I consider VERY important - and especially with respect to RPers, as they control much of the world luxury deposits, so it would be them having the upper hand as far as lux/happiness are concerned.

Republic is old stuff, everybody has it and everybody can trade/gift it to RPers - so throwing it in costs us little and actually undercuts others that may be able to get something from RPers...

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Let's call their bluff. Theo+Rep for no-Sistine+money or luxuries: sure. But no more than that. Do they want a wonder race? Good; now that the war is over, we need some excitement Besides, don't forget: we have experience in winning wonder-races

Yeah, that's the word!
Go, Legoland!

BTW, I've closely reviewed the map of Spain an found NOT A SINGLE SPANISH CITY we'd have to fear regarding a wonder race... their biggest city is pop 5, not even remotely matching the production potential of Legopolis. We would finish Bach's and Sistine's before they'd be done with Sistine's... (ok, exaggerating a bit, but you get the idea). I will, just for sure, go through the recent saves to see whether they produced any settlers and/or temples to determine how long they may have been prebuilding (IF they are prebuilding at all, which I seriously doubt).

I do agree that they are bluffing - and not very well. So, let's wait and see if they get back to us with a proposal. If they do, let's settle for Rep+Theo for no-Sistine, but not a single penny more. If they aren't reasonable, wish them luck in their glorious research of Theology and futile attempt to build Sistine's.

	27-06-2003 13:01									#154
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

BTW, just a note about something I realized... if ND is really researching Engineering and GoW Chivalry (which I consider believable), then I would believe there must be some sort of a pact between these teams - no one sane would let his neighbour research the tech enabling deadly UUs of both sides (Chivalry gives Riders to GoW and Ansar Warriors to ND), going for a different tech, if there was the slightest chance of a war breaking out.

So, the only thing that makes sense is that GoW is going to trade Chivalry to ND and these two will attack someone else. As attacking us or GS (aside from being extremely difficult because of having to cross oceans + ND has a long NAP with us) would only let RPers grow even stronger, grabbing quietly all the land they have at their disposal, eventually reaping the "benefit" from their war torn, exhausted Northern neighbours, I think RPers are the most likely target of the GoW/ND coalition.

I do not think I would do anything to help RPers out. Not until they're very badly damaged (though I can imagine trading them Navigation, enabling Conquistadors, once they are having serious troubles).

	27-06-2003 15:08									#155
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

IMHO it is not sure that they have an agreement to attack RP, but they could have a NAP which leads to the same result (only it could be only ND against RP).

Btw, you're right about the map, Radek. Not only they have only 3 "big" cities, but 2 of them are on the border, and one must be completely insane to build wonder prebuilds on the border. So there is really only one town (Barcelona, IIRC) that could build a wonder, but very-very slowly, IMHO. No need for worries.

	27-06-2003 17:30									#156
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Heh, just came from BigFree:

quote: We debated the topic pretty good over here about giving up on the Sistine Chappel and going for St Bachs Cathedral. We'd need assurances that you would not build it. We'd need Theology and The Republic. The debate is still ongoing about what to offer you for Education. Some feel it is fair for you to give it to us since we will be giving up on one of the most powerful Wonders in the game. Some say we have enough luxeries anyways, and St Bachs is a nice consulation.(not may of those.) Some feel it is fair to offer you some gold for Education. It is how much gold that is debated. I'm authorized to offer you 100 gold for it, in addition to the "No Sistine clause." Another reason we feel it is neccessary to get Education from you is that we'd have to research Music Theory also before we can even build it. As we are already on our way to The Sistine Chappel we'd need to get to Music Theory fairly quickly so that we don't build something that we don't want to build, in you catch my drift (another Palace). We can shift the WF around a bit to delay for a while, but we'd rather have a Wonder sooner than later, as would any team. It ties up production for others items for a long time as it is. That would be Lego giving: The Republic Theology Education "No St Bach's clause" Add RolePlay gives: "No Sistine Chappel clause" 100 gold Let me know ASAP so we can make appropriate plans; we are still researching Theology as of this moment and would like to switch to Music Theory ASAP. BigFree

I suggest we (uhm... ok... "politely"... ... at least remotely politely) tell them: sorry, no deal, get stuffed.

I personally find their demands totally outrageous. If you look at the equation BigFree so nicely put up, they want us to sell them The Republic, Theology, and Education for 100 gold. WTF?!?!?! Do they really believe we are idiots???

	27-06-2003 19:49									#157
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAA!!

They really must think we are idiots. If this proposal weren't so insanely absurd, it'd almost be insulting. You know, even if they beat us to Sistene somehow, they'd have just wasted a lot of energy in building a wonder that they themselves have pointed out they don't need. Again, I think this is just them trying to be the "clever" diplomats they think they are.

So yes, time to tell them to stuff it, and we'll be taking our business elsewhere.

	27-06-2003 22:11									#158
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Right, after getting the official "proposal" from BigFree, I got pissed off. A lot. Yes, I admit that, I got pissed off a lot. I hate when someone assumes I am an idiot. I am simply very "sensitive" to this kind of treatment. I know I should be working on this, but... oh, well... nobody's perfect.

So I have arsed myself to the extent of going through the last 20+ saves to see what the f**k those Spanish bastards are cooking in their kitchen. I was looking for pop drops, city radius expansions, capitals relocations, and stuff like that. I was trying to figure out what are the chances of RPers to beat us to the Sistine's Chapel, if we build The Bach's Cathedral first. Starting on Turn 120, it shall finish the Bach's in ~30 turns (the output will be at least 20 spt). Add two more pop afterwards and the Sistine's should take ~28 turns. That's both wonders on Turn 178. We may be faster, since we shall be able to trade for some extra luxuries, allowing us to add 1 or 2 pop, speeding the builds a little bit... but Turn 178 is a pretty solid ETA for both wonders, I believe.

Here is what I found... alphabetically:

EDIT: I will edit in new stuff found in the savegames

Barcelona: pop dropped from 5 to 4 on Turn 107 (returned back to pop 5 one turn later); as there is no disease risk, a worker must have been built on that turn. Could be "prebuilding wonder" since Turn 107... may have (theoretically!) up to 10*(8-1)=70 shields in bank. The theoretical maximum gross shield output of the city at pop 6 (can't grow beyond that w/o an aqueduct) is 1+4*1+2*3= 11 spt (with forests chopped, all plains irrigated and two hills mined - would need another city be placed NW to extend the radius towards those hills). Considering the city must have at least 1 shield corrupted, that gives at least 53 turns (Turn 169) to finish a 600-shield wonder even if maxxed up NOW. We shall keep an eye on this city, but I am quite sure we will soon be able to omit it from the list of "candidates".

Bilbao: founded on Turn 102; pop 1 ever since that, which means that it is "Spanish Logville" - totally corrupt, used to produce workers only. May be safely ignored.

Leon: pop dropped from 4 to 3 on Turn 114. As there are floodplains in the city radius, this might have been an outbreak of disease... but I will eat my shoes if this is anything but a worker/settler camp. But even if not... the max pop here is 6 and the theoretical max shield output at pop 6 is 11spt (2 irrigated floodplains, two mined mountains, 2 mined plains). Take 1 wasted shield out and we are at 10 spt... unless we see this city growing to pop 6 and stopping its growth, we can safely omit it from the list of candidates.

New Madrid: founded on Turn 106, its radius expanded on Turn 116 -> means a temple was finished 5 turns earlier (the very first build in the city). May theoretically be "prebuilding wonder" since Turn 111. While obviously nowhere near its completion, this would be their best wonder site - may grow up to pop 12, has two high-food tiles. New Madrid could get very close to the production potential of Legopolis, if RPers wanted it to. We shall watch it for growth / pop drops (it is, at the same time, an ideal settler farm).

Pamplona: pop dropped from 6 to 4 on Turn 115; means no prebuild is on. Pamplona can theoretically get to 23spt at pop 12 (two irrigated cows, 4 mined mountains, 2 mined bonus grasses, 4 mined grasses), more or less matching the shield output of Legopolis. Although by no means a threat at this moment, we shall watch it closely.

Salamanca: pop dropped from 2 to 1 on Turn 117. No threat at the moment, but could be if maxxed up to pop 12 - theoretical maximum is gross 22spt (irrigated cattle, 4 irrigated plains, 5 mined hills, forest chopped and irrigated, irrigated desert). Low waste. Would be a good wonder site if maxxed out VERY SOON. Let's keep an eye on it, but unless we see it growing FAST, we can ignore it.

Santiago: pop dropped from 3 to 2 on Turn 116. No disease risk, means a worker or settler build. Thus, no shields in bank. Theoretical max gross shield output at pop 12 (with some lucky bonus grasses made out of jungle) would be ~14-17spt. At least 1spt wasted... and it would still take ~38 turns to build the wonder (at pop 12!). Unless we see this city being pop-maxxed, may be safely ignored.

Sevilla: ignored for obvious reasons.

Toledo: city radius explanded on Turn 106, which means a temple must have been finished on Turn 101. Might be prebuilding a wonder (up to 70 shields in bank), but has very limited production capabilities - only 1 hill and the rest is mountains. Even with as many mountains mined and worked at pop 12 as possible, the maximum gross shield output is about 15spt (1spt from the city square, 3*3=9spt from three mined hills, 3spt from the mined hill and hopefully 2spt from a lucky bonus grass). Plus, waste at least as bad as in Panama (-2spt). That's some 13spt, so more 41 turns to go even if maxxed ad absurdum THIS TURN. Let's watch it, but I do not believe this city is actually a threat to us at all.

Vigo: city radius expanded on Turn 101, which means a temple was finished on Turn 96. May be prebuilding a wonder since Turn 97. However: max pop 6, max gross shield output 8spt (two irrigated grasses, one mined grass, two irrigated plains, mined iron mountain). Waste roughly as in in Farmerville (>25%)... means 6spt if maxxed out. Theoretical ETA of a 600-shield wonder: Turn 197. Can be ignored completely.

Valencia: ignored for obvious reasons.

Zaragoza: pop dropped from 6 to 5 on Turn 114. No disease risk -> no prebuild (up to 27 shields in bank). The basic problem of this city is the lack of high shield tiles - even at pop 12, the max gross shield output is about ~17-19 spt (with some lucky bonus tiles made out of the jungle). Waste as in Panama (-2spt), means at least ~34 turns to the first wonder (if maxxed to pop 12 RIGHT NOW!). Unless we see this city being pop-maxxed, may be safely ignored.

Note, please, that I am using totally absurd calculations, assuming things like ~10 workers being added to cities, ALL tiles improved (which is difficult for a non-industrious nation) and such... even under these ridiculous assumptions, there is NO city that could be even remotely close to completing Sistine's within the next ~30 turns.

So, my suggestion. Let's make a table of the cities we should watch, resetting their "starting turn" every time we notice something "strange". Watch out for cities growing to high pops. But unless something weird happens, we should happily proceed with our Bach first, Sistine second plan.

Note: actually, the only real threat is RPers being drawn into a war, generating a leader and building Sistine's in a single turn... but then, we will always have a fine backup wonder to build (Bach's, Newton's...), so no real loss will happen. Just that things will not be exactly as we would like them to be...

Last edited by vondrack on 29-06-2003 at 00:42

	27-06-2003 22:40									#159
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Considering the context and my analysis, here is a draft of the response to RPers (feel free to comment, I am not going to send it out any time soon):

quote: BigFree, We are sorry to inform you that we do not see how to strike a deal here. As indicated in the chat, the most we are willing to offer for the "no Sistine clause" is Republic and Theology. We are not ready to include Education or "no Bach's clause" in this deal, even if countered with gold. Sincerely, vondrack

Despite feeling badly insulted, I would still go for Rep+Theo for "no-Sistine", simply because we would secure the Sistine's against possible GL-rushes... I am quite sure RPers will be attacked soon and they may get lucky... and they may decide to build Sistine's (though I would expect them to build an army).

Anyway, I do not believe they will take it now - they'd "lose their face". So let's forget them and "take our business elsewhere", as ZargonX nicely put it.

	30-06-2003 12:05									#160
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Guys, you will not believe this...

Last weekend, I happened to have a small chit-chat with BigFree (RP). We have got a close, very friendly relationship from the days I used to be a Consul in the ISDG. Without me even mentioning the topic, he asked about how are we going to react to their proposal on Rep, Theo, Edu... and all that stuff. I said I was not supposed to comment until the team would make a decision... but that it was highly unlikely the deal would go through. He tried to up the gold part, I said it was not the problem.

There was only one more person in the room (E_T, another RPer), but I switched to a private channel anyway and told BigFree - strictly in private - that I have gone through the last 20+ saves and was able to verify they are nowhere close to completing the Sistine's. And knowing that, it is not really acceptable for us to agree to the deal as proposed... especially when we are quite sure we will finish the wonder before them. He tried this and that, but I made it very clear the situation was similar to "insuring a car" - you are reasonably sure you will not crash it, but you still consider insuring against "the unexpected". But the insurance costs must not be higher than something - and that this "something" was Republic and Theology in our case.

And this has just arrived into my PMbox:

quote: Role Play team promises not to build The Sistine Chappel. In return, Lego gifts The Republic and Theology to Role Play immediately upon approval. Signed Togas, King of Spain

I am still rolling on the floor, laughing. We called their bluff and they have just admitted it... the "deal" is so simple that there's not even a place for the famous Togas' loophole in it...

Gentlemen, we have secured the two key happiness wonders for us.
(and we will even have time to build a university and bank before going for the Sistine's in Legopolis )

Go, Legoland!



Note: I am not going to respond immediately, so feel free to think about any loophole I could be missing... but I do not believe there is anything missing in the "deal" - both techs are already non-resellable, so no NDAs are necessary... and the promise to not build the Sistine's Chapel is as clear as a day.

	30-06-2003 16:23									#161
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Well done, Vondrack. The treaty sounds great.

	01-07-2003 06:55									#162
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Only possible loophole that I can possibly see is that "Chapel" is spelt incorrectly - shouldn't be "Chappel" - but that would be a ridiculous loophole - one that I would not stand for if they tried something like that...

Good job in calling their bluff Vondrack !

I agree - we should immediately build a wonder, preferably Bach since I think that is the better wonder.

I think we can avoid a war even with the 2 happiness wonders by perhaps agreeing to not build certain wonders that we have no intention of building anyway - so we can safely agree to not build Adam Smith with GS, we already have agreed not to build Leo's with GoW, etc.

	01-07-2003 10:58									#163
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Good point about the incorrect spelling - I will correct that before signing the "treaty" and sending it back to the RPers (but I am quite sure that 'Chappel' is just BigFree's idea of the correct spelling... ).

Poly going offline for many hours did not exactly help us - no idea how many of you had the chance to read about the new development regarding the no Sistine clause... I am now going to play our turn, which is going to take about an hour or so... Before sending the save to GS, I will be sure to check the forum again for more comments - unless I find something important here, I will sign the "treaty" on our behalf then, PM it back to BigFree and forward the save to GS.

	01-07-2003 12:17									#164
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ok, signed and sent. I accidentally sent it at first without fixing the typo, so I re-sent, as follows:

quote: BigFree, Please ignore that first PM, that was a mis-send. This is the official treaty: Role Play team promises not to build The Sistine Chapel. In return, Lego gifts The Republic and Theology to Role Play immediately upon approval. Signed ZargonX

So, I clearly said which one was official. They can't argue with that

	05-07-2003 03:07									#165
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I've had a chat with RP's ambassador to us and as usual I got some info. RP will be most likely waiting awhile before switching to the republic. Oh, dont tell togas or we may lose the ambassador to an accident he said more then he should.

	05-07-2003 12:28									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Nimitz I've had a chat with RP's ambassador to us and as usual I got some info. RP will be most likely waiting awhile before switching to the republic. Oh, dont tell togas or we may lose the ambassador to an accident he said more then he should.

This information only proves how bad shape their economy is in. If it is better for a religious nation to remain in Monarchy instead of switching to Republic, then they must be in troubles...

	07-07-2003 10:09									#167
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Well, some more interesting RP news... I was approched by BigFree tonight for a chat, and here are the contents...

quote: ZargonX|around> yes, sorry ZargonX|around> been running around my house BigFree> np ZargonX|around> so, what would you like to discuss? BigFree> about Chivalry... BigFree> are you selling? ZargonX|around> I am afraid we are not in a position to sell BigFree> BigFree> we detected that 3,maybe 4 civs have it. ZargonX|around> I have not checked yet, but it seems possible BigFree> we have confirmed GoW BigFree> we highly suspect ND BigFree> is GoW selling to you? ZargonX|around> I would guess that Chiv would be priority one for those two... BigFree> yes, no doubt ZargonX|around> are you worried about the UU influx on Bob when that happens? BigFree> yes BigFree> maybe GoW and ND figure their UU's cancel each other out and decided to use against RP ZargonX|around> hmmm... that's definately a scary situation BigFree> ZargonX|around> have they expressed any antagonism towards you? BigFree> not yet, but they are relectant to chat ZargonX|around> hrmm... definately a discouragging sign... BigFree> plus GoW wont sell to us yet ZargonX|around> oh? did they give a reason? BigFree> just that we should a few turns then ask again ZargonX|around> ah BigFree> ND. power graph spiked ZargonX|around> yes, I noticed that too BigFree> we figure it was upgrades ZargonX|around> though, they aren't very talkative to begin with :P BigFree> hehe true ZargonX|around> any other exciting happenings on Bob these days? BigFree> other than that, no; we don't want no excitement either! ;p ZargonX|around> hehe, I can appreciate that

So, looks like RP doesn't have Chiv, no one wants to give it them, and it's making them pretty nervous. You may notice my "Zargonian Dodge" about the who gave us Chiv (And by Zargonian Dodge, I mean I ignored the question ) It's out of our hands anyway, as we cannot possibly give them Chiv for 20 turns. But, as I've said before, I'd look for some action on Bob soon...

	07-07-2003 10:32									#168
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Well, I was preparing to post something I've written offline an hour ago or so, a post that it is also confirmed by this chat:

This is sort of intel info and I didn't know where to put it (maybe we'd need a dedicated thread), so here it comes:

Changing the research to Chivalry and playing with the slider gave me Chiv. in 9 turns working on 40% science(64 beakers), which equals a total of 576 beakers.
Now, the original value of Chiv is 768, which means that at least 2 civs (probably 3) have Chivalry already. We knew about GoW, so who are the others? Possibly GS and one more team.

One more piece of info: our military is weak now compared to ND.

Combining the 2 pieces of info: ND has Chivalry and are upgrading their horses to Ansars! Ouch!

The question is now: do GoW have iron? I forgot to check in the save if we can give them iron or not and also if GoW is trading with ND or not. ND has 2 iron deposits, so if they are trading iron to GoW, RP is toast, because they wouldn't do that without a NAP

	07-07-2003 11:23									#169
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Until Astronomy, we can't trade anything to others, so I do not think there is a way to check whether GoW has iron.

And BTW, this news (RPers being nervous because of Ansars and all) made my norning brighter...

	07-07-2003 11:33									#170
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Until Astronomy, we can't trade anything to others, so I do not think there is a way to check whether GoW has iron.

Right. I forgot about this.

Anyway, if ND are serious about winning this game, they should use their Ansars against someone, and that someone will be GoW or RP, no doubt about it. GoW are quite harmless without iron so it is possible that they are the target, easpecially if ND fear their Riders. But the RPs could be the target just as easily, with their beautiful land begging to being conquered

	09-07-2003 11:39									#171
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Ok, it has been a busy diplomacy night from RP. They have been bombarding me from all sides:

-Firstly, they know we have Edu (it was pretty obvious) and they are intersted in arranging a deal. I told them I'd put together a proposal and get back to them.
-More importantly, they are in a state of panic about the situation on Bob. Arnelos is convinced World War Bob is about to break out, and BF essentially begged me for a Lego assistance pledge. I told them we can set up a team-to-team summit tomorrow to discuss the issues. I'll get back to them with a time that's good for most of us.

Anyway, sleep time now, but I'll post deeper impressions of the chats tomorrow.

	09-07-2003 12:02									#172
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We have a no-landing and NAP treaty with ND, so at best we can send them money or techs, but honestly I'm not very eager to do that.

One more thing: this can be another RP bluff, to make us give them money and/or techs or to drag us into a yet non-existing war and then cry "wolf" pointing to us. No, thank you.

Either way, I think we could agree that we don't really want to help RP, unless they get into real trouble. (by trouble I don't mean war, but losing several cities)

I think that whatever is boiling on Bob, we better stay out of it.

Did you ask them if they have anything to give us for Edu?

	09-07-2003 12:24									#173
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I very much agree with Tibi. I see no need to help RPers at all - no ingame reasons and even less outgame reasons. Speaking outgame, I would love to see them gone. Speaking ingame, of course... well, I just hope we will not have to help them too much in order to keep the balance of power.

Our NAP with ND is valid and will not be broken by us. There is something like elementary honour. I do not believe we should provide RPers with techs that are not military-oriented (what good would, say, Edu do to their ability to wage war?). And as we are not going to have any military-oriented ones any time soon... well, you get the idea.

Regarding our support - as Tibi says, I would wait until they actually start losing cities. Several of them and not just useless border villages. I would then revisit the idea... but until then, let them reap what they've been sowing for centuries. And if we eventually help them, it will cost them. It will cost them.

Regarding the Education - I see little need to rush this... I'd trade for gold and nothing else. I would send them a trade agreement draft with all the usual legal mumbo-jumbo (NDAs etc.) with the actual amount left out and ask them to fill an "appropriate" amount in. If we like it, we trade. If not, bad luck. Nothing presses us to sell. Besides, every turn we delay the trade (up to about 10 turns) is fine for us, since we are getting closer to another tech of ours (Astro), making it more difficult for them to research anything valuable faster than us.

	09-07-2003 13:50									#174
	Got spare money?

We still have to honour that bloody "most favoured nation" clause. Which means we must give them Edu cheaper than to any other civs. The only money trade involved so far was with GS, and namely Edu for 230 gold. So for 180-200 gold we'd be more than happy to sell them Edu.

	09-07-2003 13:57									#175
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Yep, ~200 would be fine with me (and still a bargain for them). The price was actually more than 230, as the deal included the GS World Map valued at ~50 gold, too (and, OTOH, one research point of difference in our favour on the Astro/Bank swap, of course).

	09-07-2003 14:03									#176
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Well, let's consider that the diffrence between Astro and Banking was paid with the WM. So, Edu was 230 gold.

	09-07-2003 14:19									#177
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If you pay 230 gold for a 1056 beaker tech, then it would be a bit strange to pay 50 gold for a 96 beaker difference... that's why I pointed out the price was actually a bit higher.

I am not trying to prove you wrong , just pointing out that the accurate way of determining the price in gold we got from GS for the purpose of calculating the "most favoured nation price" for the RPers would be 280/(1056+96)*1056=257 gold. So, anything under 250 gold fulfils our obligation.

A sidenote: Voxes are going to receive 100g+5gpt for Engineering from the RPers. That's 200 gold for a tech that is almost 20% cheaper... a proportional sum would be ~240 gold. I would start on 240 and reluctantly go as low as 200, talking about our children being hungry, clothes being badly worn out etc.

	09-07-2003 20:14									#178
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Yes, I'm pretty sure the only thing RP could possibly give us is gold. How about this for an "initial offer"

Edu for: 240 GP and a 20 turn NDA.

Now, they probably won't go for this, and will whine for a lower price. Our absolute lowest should be 200, though maybe we could also finagle a WM out of them if we play it right Though, if they are so worried about war, I don't see how they'd really be in a position to spend so much gold on techs. Perhaps this really is just a way to try and get a sense of how we're doing...

As for the war help, I personally think helping them is pointless, regardless of my personal feelings towards the team. If ND and GoW both go against them, us throwing money at them won't help. We are not in a position to send military aid, and even if we did muster a force, that would just piss off the other Bobians, setting us up as the next target. I think RP is going to have to work themselves out of this corner on their own.

	09-07-2003 22:38									#179
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Agreed with your assessment, Zargon.

And I would also start on 240g+20t, setting (internally) the lowest price acceptable for us to 200g+20t. Them crying for help in the form of Education is just plain false, since Edu will do absolutely nothing in terms of military - no new units or military structures...

I am absolutely sure they would do NOTHING to help us against ND or GoW, should we get attacked, so we should not do anything for them either.

	10-07-2003 01:25									#180
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I think that 240 is a bit too high. It is a correct price, but not a "most favoured nation" price. Therefor I'd start with 220 and settle on 180.

I tell you: we will hurt them with a 240 offer, and there's no need to make them hate us.