03-03-2003 23:10									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Why is Warrior1 going to 'head south' after moving onto the mountain, and moving W ?

	04-03-2003 06:24									#32
	Put an end to popups!

BFM is right. We should continue N until we are sure there isn't a possible continental neighbor in that direction. It should be obvious in 2-3 turns if we keep heading Nish, but right now there is still a significant chance that it's an isthmus on the N side of the Mountains.

	04-03-2003 09:10									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree with a Northern tromp through the Mountains/Plains.

	04-03-2003 09:11									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Being that there's only two directions now (i.e. north and south), I think that's about the only option we have.

	04-03-2003 16:50									#35
	Support Apolyton

I agree, we should go north with warrior one, but I would like not to go to the coastal mountain, but the one next of it. From there we should have a good view of the surrounding terrain. That is why I want to move northwest (7), and then if it appears there is nothing west move northeast (9)

	05-03-2003 01:07									#36
	Remove this text

Turn 12 exploration comments:

We should continue S with Warrior 2. The view off that Mountain would be nice, but we lose a turn and a half of southern progression.

Warrior 1 is best off going NW.

	05-03-2003 01:14									#37
	Inflate your Upload Space

South Warrior: We could also find a goody hut, which would be a huge benefit right now, easily worth the 1 1/2 turns lost.

North Warrior: Could go either way here. Personally, I'd rather see farther inland into the isthmus (also with a better chance of finding a goody hut), than further UP... we're heading that direction anyways, so I don't think it matters much.

	05-03-2003 01:51									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Not sure we'd want to pop a hut in the Jungle right now (especially one that shows up on the N side of the Mountain). With 1 Warrior to protect our first Settler, our City, our Worker, and terrain improvements... It could be worth the turn and a half, or it could be disasterous at this point.

If we are going to open huts, one S is possible too, though we wouldn't be as likely to see it. Any hut S would be more likely to be in 'danger' of another civ opening it at this point as well. A relatively even tradeoff.

I can't see hut possibilities as being more important than finding neighbors and getting a good grasp on the terrain. The land we see from that Mountain is likely all Jungle, we can be reasonably certain of that at this point. Much like the E Desert coast a couple turns ago. Where the southern edge of the Jungle lies is more important information. Knowing that before the foundation of our next city could mean the difference of 9-18 Worker turns.

------------

As for the N, moving NW and then W will show us more worthwhile terrain than W and then NW would. Also, 'we are heading that way anyways' means we should be doing just that, heading that way.

My arguments for movement the last two turns have been geared towards getting a view W, but there were side benefits those turns... uncovering a tile that's important to city placement (W 2 turns ago), and doing something we'd likely want to do soon anyways (NW last turn). There really isn't any side benefit this turn to moving W. We're going to see a few Hills and Mountains that are also visible by going NW and then W anyways.

	05-03-2003 03:19									#39
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We see the same or a few more tiles in the same period of time by moving W2 to the mountain in the jungle. He also can see what should be the western edge of the jungle from there. That could be important for city placement.

	05-03-2003 03:31									#40
	Get a bigger avatar today!

re moving W1 north or south...

Given our small number of good tiles for fast city development, I would place the highest priority on knowing where the maritime specials are if there are any nearby. That is why I support having W1 move westerly for a few turns and then come south down the coast.

In either case it is a gamble. There may be no maritime specials if we move south, or there may be no neighbour if we move north. The question is, which is most critical now? Making contact ASAP, or getting the most possible out of our maximum of 4 or 5 useful early cities?

I would say the cities are critical whether we are alone or not.

	05-03-2003 03:35									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I agree with NYE on this one. Also, in response to "we'll be heading that way anyways so we should head that direction anyways," the point is that we'll be GOING that way anyways, so we'll see everything in that direction eventually, even if it takes a turn longer. We may miss something if we don't go west this turn, we may not. Like NYE said, it's a gamble either way.

Sorry Aeson, my MoW orders will stand. It's up to the consulate to decide what to do.

	05-03-2003 04:08									#42
	Re: Ministry of War: General Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Trip Official Ministry of War Thread Located Here As I hinted to, later on MoW build priorities will probably be Swords and NMs, with horses being much lower priority.

With this terrian, if no Iron is avaalable, I'd prefer building archers to horsemen.

	05-03-2003 04:19									#43
	Inflate your Upload Space

Scouting is gambling, I'm just suggesting where the best odds lie.

Our build queue should support enough Warriors to fully map out our landmass (possibly with restrictions due to border treaties) before our first ring of cities is complete. There are 3 sites right now we can see that are almost certainly better than anything we'll see with either of these moves to the W. Our next best sites are likely to be S of the Jungle, at least until we can bring Irrigation to the plains to the W of Apolyton.

Our neighbors, if any, are N and S. Delaying contacts to see things we're going to see before that information is useful anyways is wasteful IMO.

	05-03-2003 04:23									#44
	Re: Ministry of War: General Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Trip Official Ministry of War Thread Located Here As I hinted to, later on MoW build priorities will probably be Swords and NMs, with horses being much lower priority.

With this terrian, if no Iron is avaalable, I'd prefer building archers to horsemen.

	05-03-2003 05:35									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

W1 to the west, I agree.

Re W2: it seems to me that our first new town will be either 223 or 233 from Apolyton. Does this not argue for sending W2 at least 1 tile to the east?

	05-03-2003 05:38									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I would imagine that sending W3 to the east wouldn't be a bad idea. We already know that the only possible threats could come from the north and the south, meaning we'd have at least ample warning to move a Warrior between Apolyton and our 2nd city before anything got within range to do damage.

	05-03-2003 07:01									#47
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I assume we're planning on keeping W3 at home for defense. But the problem is we could use some information concerning the lands to the SE. Could we perhaps use the Road network to pop down there for a turn or two to check it out? The Warrior would be back in about 4-5 turns. That leaves our capital undefended during that time, but a good city placement could depend critically on this information.


Dominae

	05-03-2003 07:03									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

That was my intention. We'd keep the Warrior within 2 tiles of our road network, which means we'd be 4 turns away from any of our possible cities at any time. This would provide ample time for us to get to any of our cities to be able to defend it/them.

	05-03-2003 08:00									#49
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ah good. And, by the way, I assume W2 is going to climb that Mountain next round?


Dominae

	05-03-2003 08:17									#50
	Put an end to popups!

I'm fine with this plan.

	05-03-2003 08:19									#51
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Ah good. And, by the way, I assume W2 is going to climb that Mountain next round? Dominae

Yep.

Glad to see everyone agree for once.

	05-03-2003 14:33									#52
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Even I'll agree with the move to the Mountain...

To play devil's advocate... As for the hut, I'm not so sure. From this thread:

quote: Here are the results for Reagent: Tech: 128 ~30% Gold: 38 ~10% Unit: 38 ~10% Map: 49 ~10% Barbarians: 149 ~35% Deserted: 22 ~5%

This is all done back for the 1.21f patch, and I think 1.29f upped the occurance of Settlers, but not sure on that. At the time Settlers were roughly 5%. The basic ratios seem close for PtW still (I'll check this in a scenario later tonight).

What we are likely to get from the hut are Barbarians or a tech (Ceremonial Burial most likely). I don't think we really want/need either of these. CB would be nice, but it's quite a cheap tech, especially if we make contact with ND, GCA, and/or Firaxis. Barbarians we want to avoid, especially considering we only have 1 Warrior reserved to defend our capitol, first Settler, Worker, and terrain improvements.

We very well may still have the land peter out to the north, in which case this hut becomes 'safe' until Map Making. At that point a tech would be worth a lot more, perhaps as much as a Settler would at this point, and more valuable than an advanced tribe now unless there is some better terrain on the N side of the hut.

The danger is that we are passing up a chance for a Settler (~5%) right now, or that another team from the N could open the hut before we have a chance to.

If we are on a peninsula, leaving the hut is almost certainly going to be a good thing. I think the risk of opening it and getting Barbs is greater than the risk of passing on it for now and someone else opening it before we can. The likelyhood of a Settler isn't enough to overcome that. If we are on an isthmus, it becomes much less clear.

	05-03-2003 14:41									#53
	Tired of ads?

Well, barbs are much less aggressive against units now, so I would be inclined to go for it, especially given that we are not working on a settler. It is also a way away north. Most barbs would spend a long while wandering in the wilderness before ever apporaching Poly.

btw Aeson, those numbers have zero occurance of settler. That would skew things a bit towards barbs.

	05-03-2003 14:49									#54
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The 'units' includes the Settler probability.

	05-03-2003 15:02									#55
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I do not think the numbers that I am seeing so far on page 1 are reliable.

	05-03-2003 16:19									#56
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, some PtW 1.14f numbers: Regent, Roaming

378 total (I know this isn't all that statistically valid, but it's all I can stand for tonight)

68 Techs ~ 18%
48 Maps ~ 13%
45 Gold ~ 12%
45 Warrior/Horsemen ~ 12%
26 Empty ~ 7%
116 Barbs ~ 30%
30 Settlers ~ 8%

	05-03-2003 17:19									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

that looks like a good sample size to me.
god knows I would never have the patience to pop 378 huts.

one question: are you counting popping a city as a 'settler'?

	05-03-2003 21:32									#58
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If we're on a peninsula, leave the hut.

If the land stretches northwards, continue north and meet the neighbours (if any) first. Then strike a deal not to scout any further if they have a scout, or go back and be faster if they have a warrior.

Is it actually possible to 'pop a city'? I thought this was replaced by settlers.

	05-03-2003 21:51									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Is it actually possible to 'pop a city'? I thought this was replaced by settlers.

IIRC only for expansionist civ's

(once popped a size 4 city , it was to far from my capital to be of any use though, and I had to shrink it down to size 2 due to happiness problems )

	05-03-2003 21:53									#60
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I say pop the Hut. We may get more to trade with initially with our neighbors, and we could turn this game around with a Settler. Barbs should not be a problem.


Dominae