27-06-2003 21:36									#181
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The GoW deal stands as is. But I got a good response from H_E, and some good info. Looks like GS is still steamed at them.

My response to his response comes first.

Re: Engineering Deal
H_E - greetings friend.

Thanks for your response. As discussed earlier - I sincerely appreciate that we can discuss these matters frankly. It clears the way for the future, in my opinion.

I respect your position on this, and appreciate the view that this be taken into consideration in a future deal.

As to the powerful, angry neighbour, yes - I understand. I still say the basic alliance concept is sound - I just don't think Vox will be the one to lead the charge for quite some time. And I understand that some of that anger may be the result of your involvement in recent events.

The galleys will stay separated.

Thanks for the recommendation on the workers. And yes - that is the plan with our worker population. The civilians involved are settlers - who left Estonia while peace was still being debated - sort of as an insurance policy.

And yes - we have a map of Legos Minor in detail. Not the greatest land - but don't knock it too much. It is our home.

Take care - stay in touch ..... Beta.
quote:

Hot_Enamel wrote on 27-06-2003 10:32:

Hey Beta,

Your last question first... Tensions are always high on Bob....but it has been so far reasonably quiet.

GS have been more difficult than usual. (They have always been difficult)... Like Vox, they too have told us of their displeasure with our team.

Vox complains we did too little.
GS complains we did too much.

Certainly, our reputation with them took a beating with our horsemen landing.

Regarding the Engineering deal, many of our team agree that we got an excellent price. Unfortunately, we are also in not a position to renegotiate...nor, do I believe we would want to.

GoW understands your frustration, and we are considering ways to return a good trade deal your way. A heavily discounted tech trade is most likely in the near future.

But again .. although we would like send an extra 35g your way, so that we can repair some of the recent diplomatic damage, we are not in a position to do so.

Even our very favourable cash trade of chivalry to GS is now in doubt. We have a very angry, powerful, neighbour.

Beta, keep in touch, your galleys are welcome to pass our Northern shores. Please do not group then together as you would an invasion force.

Also note, our galley has mapped most of the coast of Lego. If they are sending you to "Lego Minor" as GS put it, then be prepared for some average territory. We see desert & mountains so far.

Anyway.. best wishes for your voyage.

P.S. If your galleys have civilian units (workers) they can be transported far quicker. Sell them to us, Lego, GS or whoever...and then buy them back when your capital moves to Lego.

Regards

	12-07-2003 08:15									#182
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Rec'd via e-mail from Master Zen of GoW. Anybody around this weekend for a chat?

Hey Beta!

I was wondering if we could have a chat as soon as possible, preferably during the next 24-72 hours regarding the PTWDG, there are certain things my team would like to discuss with yours. Please tell me whatever time is best for you and I'll most likely be able to attend.

Thank you very much.

-MZ

	12-07-2003 11:07									#183
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I'll be around a bit on Saturday but I'm not sure exactly when. Sunday will probably be out for me though. If you start the chat do me a favor and post that you're starting it so I can join if I'm in here. Thanks.

	12-07-2003 21:50									#184
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I am just the opposite. I have plans for today but should be around most of Sunday.

	15-07-2003 06:51									#185
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Had a chat with GoW (MZ, Pz32, and UnO) last evening, just before my bedtime. I was watching the last four episodes of Buffy on tape and lost track of time. Sorry.

So - basically - GoW wants us to 'investigate' either ND or RP cities. They will pay the cost - and they will gift us a free tech. They will also provide wines for a 40 turn period. I know diddly about investigating - so help me out here guys. (edit - I have gone back to last turns save to see how it is done - it will cost us 78 gold - I did not click on the final button - until we agree we want to do this.) I have I said we would probably be interested - but we would still have to decide.

And btw - it is still not clear of they are attacking ND or RP. But their request would indicate RP.

I need some quick feedback on this - as our turn is coming around. For the record - I am OK with it. It gets us a technology - and a luxury - both of which will be key. Yes - we are being used somewhat as a pawn - but let's make the most of it.

The one thing we may insist upon - as I understand there is a chance of being discovered - is that we close the engineering deal with RP first.

Here is the e-mail from MZ:

We have sent you 80g accepted. If you agree to this deal, accept the trade, if not, decline it. We would like it if you could investigate Toledo for us this turn and send the screenshot to us as soon as you can. I trust you to please not disclose the deal nor the target to anyone. If investigating Toledo is more expensive please take the shot anyway and we'll compensate the difference next turn, according to my estimates a size 6 city should be around 70-90g.

Thank you very much and best regards to you and your team
-MZ

btw, I'll be hanging out at the #GoW room but in Undernet, not at the Apolyton servers (which don't seem to work anyway) just in case you need to chat with us.



Glory of War and Vox Controli Information Trade Pact

In the spirit of maintaining the strong relationship between the Glory of War (GoW) and Vox Controli (Vox), and determined to form a common front against threats to hegemony, our two nations agree to the following pact.

1 - Vox agrees to a sharing of information regarding city investigation to GoW. This will be done by means of a full screen capture of the city or cities in question.

2 - GoW will pay Vox's expenses in estabilishing embassies and investigating cities. On any given turn, GoW may request a quote on specific cities. Vox will reply with the quote and GoW shall send the amount needed to Vox as soon as it has the turn. Vox shall investigate said city/cities during it's own turn and send the captured images back to GoW via e-mail. Should the cost of investigation increase between the time of the quote and the turn, GoW shall pay the difference on the following turn. Should the cost drop, the difference shall be held as "credit" for a future investigation.

3 - Screen captures must be clear enough to see all defending units and city stats.

4 - In return, GoW shall gift a Wine luxury for a 40-turn period, decided upon by Vox.

5 - Furthermore GoW agrees to gift a technology to Vox. This technology may be any one that GoW currently has or will research in the future. GoW reserves the right to attach a no-trade clause to the trade.

6 - This agreement shall remain secret unless agreed otherwise by both parties. Moreover, Vox agrees not to disclose the nation who is target of GoW's military action until a formal declaration of war is in place.

7 - By terms of this agreement, information sharing by Vox may be done at GoW's request during any time during the duration of hostilities between GoW and any other Bobian civ. This treaty shall remain in place until hostilities cease although Vox reserves the right to request its free technology and free luxury at any time in the future.


Hoping to forge a lasting and mutually-beneficial relationship,

Signed.
-Master Zen
Consul of Foreign Affairs of The Glory of War.

Last edited by Beta on 15-07-2003 at 07:01

	15-07-2003 09:18									#186
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Hmm, a can of worms sounds like it's about to open. I can't deny that the tech and luxuries would be advantageous in our future, but I have serious doubts about clause #2. The way it's worded allows them to ask us to check on a city at any time...including when they are at war with RP (since it looks like that's inevitable). Basically they are asking us to do their spy work for them when they aren't able to. Once you are at war with a civ, you can't use the diplomacy screen to investigate their cities. You can only do that when you have spies. They're trying to circumvent that part of civ3.

My gut instinct is to say 'no' to this. We're already tied to Lego because they've been good to us. GoW is asking us to tie ourselves to them so they can get around a civ rule.

However, I do reserve the right to change my opinion if someone else has a convincing argument for doing this.

	15-07-2003 13:03									#187
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In MP games there are various things players/teams do to get around Civ rules. An example is trading something you do not have yet, such as an agreement to give a tech now in exchange for one later. You can not make such a trade agreement in the game That does not bother me unless there are rules agreed to when the game is started that disallow such actions.

One of my concerns is whether or not an investigate city action can be detected by the other team. I don't know. I have never received a message in an SP game that says someone investigated my city (not that I recall anyway) nor have I ever received a message saying an investigate action was detected (although I don't do much investigating).

My other concern is whether or not such action would violate our agreement with Lego. I can make a case that as long as both civs (GoW and the target) are at peace then we are not getting involved in a war. It's a grey area if GoW and the target civ are at war.

	15-07-2003 19:05									#188
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I am generally OK with this. I do not see it as a 'cheat' in any way. Harry is right. It is just another feature of MP, which is why MP is soooo much better.

I also think Harry is right about making sure Lego is on-side - so despite GoW wanting this kept between us - I have discreetly asked vondrack if they are OK with it, given our treaty. I suspect they will be, as there is clearly no love lost between Lego and RP.

Hot_Enamel has indicated that there is no possibility it will be detected - and he did indicate that it was relatively urgent. So - it sounds like war on the continent is imminent.

So - if Lego is Ok with it - then I say we do it. But I want to make sure the deal works to our real benefit. I do not want to get a second rate tech - or one we could easily get from Lego. I may tighten up the wording - and if GoW is desperate for this - we should be able to make it fly.

	15-07-2003 19:59									#189
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See the Lego FA thread. More than Ok with it.

So - unless there are any major objections - I will say yes to GoW.

	15-07-2003 20:16									#190
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To MZ and Hot_Enamel,,

Hi MZ. We are on-side. And can and will do it this turn. However, two changes to the agreement are required. Under number 2, we want GS cities excluded. Sort of a point of honor with us - if you understand. This may be re-negotiated in the future. And under number 5, we want to agree to the tech. I'm sure you can appreciate our reasons for this - as the clause can currently be intepreted that you choose the tech - which may resuklt in us getting a tech of little value to us. We will be reasonable in this, you have our word. And we will respect the no-trade clause. If the changes are OK with you - simply send a quick note. We are awaiting the save.

Regards - Beta.

ps I am also sending a copy to Hot_Enamel to ensure your team gets this.

	15-07-2003 20:39									#191
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I did some testing. I setup a host seat game with three civs and gave one civ lots of cash to investigate cities with. Over a period of about 15 turns I established embasies in the other two civs and executed around 37 diplomatic investigate city missions. The other two civs never received any indication that a city was investigated.

This sounds like a good deal for us. The worst that can happen is that the target civ finds out through a leak and we ruffle some feathers. But then, we are just playing "arms dealer" and would be happy to get paid to do it for the other side as well.

	15-07-2003 21:10									#192
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I guess I need to play more MP games. I didn't realize that it was common to do this. It's okay by me (not that it matters since it's already done ).

	15-07-2003 21:36									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill I guess I need to play more MP games. I didn't realize that it was common to do this. It's okay by me (not that it matters since it's already done ).

Rhoth - that was one of the intents of this game. To be a learning experience regarding MP. And yes - we are learning new things all the time.

	15-07-2003 22:05									#194
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

From what it appears so far, good diplomacy is far and away the most important aspect of the democracy games. Is it the same way in PBEMs?

I have a lot to learn.

	17-07-2003 20:43									#195
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TO MasterZen:

Hi MZ! Very entertaining times. Nothing like the start of a war to spice up the forum.

Our team is on-side with the alternate deal NOT to provide engineering to RP. Essentialy they, RP, cancelled the original deal - and tried to renegotiate - because of cash shortages - so we are somewhat OK with this. We also think it would be somewhat two-faced to do our 'spying' deal with you - but then to trade engineering to RP when it will help them in the war.

So - 40 gold, plus a tech, plus a lux for 20 turns - that was what we discussed. We are OK with it. Are you? Please let me know. Thanks.

If yes - that will be 35 gold for the original way-back-when deal, 80 for the Toledo investigation, and 40 for the RP-cancellation deal .... cash register rings it up - cha ching - 155 gold. But no luxes for awhile. Thanks.

All the best with the war!

Regards ....Beta.

	19-07-2003 05:57									#196
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Remember that GOW owes us 155 gold. The great thing about the way the cash flow worked out last turn - is that when GS took The Voice - we only had 40 some odd gold - which mean they only captured 10, which they say they have returned. But it certainly looks good for our argument for not having much of a treasury.

GS owes us 10 this turn - and 60 next turn.

	19-07-2003 15:34									#197
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From GoW. First I recall of the 4 turn delay. Enough to make sure we don't trade it to RP???

Over to you guys to respond.

quote: Glad to know you're on side Btw, you mentioned you would be cool with paying you the 40g in 4 turns. Is that still ok? Keep your cash register open... more $ is on the way once we need to investigate another city. -MZ

	19-07-2003 17:34									#198
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I say the 4 turn delay is fine...but we still trade engineering in secret to RP. Remember: GoW traded feudalism to GS and effectively ended our campaign because of it.

	19-07-2003 20:01									#199
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Witt, GS had feudalism and traded it to GoW with a clause that prevented them from trading it for a while. They wanted to trade Chivalry to GS.

	19-07-2003 20:17									#200
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The response I sent to MZ:

quote: We are OK with the 4 turns. Keep the money coming. We will be running a deficit for a while until our new cities are productive.

	20-07-2003 14:53									#201
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Ah you're right Harry - but I guess it doesn't matter now that RP has Engineering.

	22-07-2003 20:06									#202
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Sent to MZ:

quote: MZ, In our 50 BC turn Beta posted that GoW sent the money for Engineering and the city investigation but the deal also included a luxury which we are supposed to get later. So he did not accept the deal. He said he explained this to someone in GoW in a chat and that the money would be resent. I played the 30 BC turn the other day and there was no money from GoW. Did someone forget? It should be 115 gold (35 + 80). Also just a reminder about the 40 gold for canceling our Engineering deal with RP is due in three more turns. I hope you understand that with our gpt deficit we will be running for a while until our new cities are established and grow that we need to keep a close eye on our money situation. Thanks. -- HarryH

	23-07-2003 18:50									#203
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The reply from MZ:

quote: I apologize for the mistake. Rest assured we will send the money this turn and that payment for the engineering deal will be forthcoming as scheduled. -MZ

	31-07-2003 20:35									#204
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Received from Master Zen a couple of days ago:

quote: Greetings HarryH, As part of our spying agreement, I would like to ask you for a shot of Zaragoza this turn. We will send you 100g as we guess that is more or less the price of the investigation, the difference to be arranged for later. Thank you very much for your cooperation in this struggle -MZ

	31-07-2003 20:36									#205
	Remove this text

This morning I received this from Panzer32:

quote: Hi, During your current turn you have been asked by us to investigate Zaragossa, and given 100 gold to do so. We as the Glory of War would appreciate if you could investigate the GS city of Toledo also. We are sorry we didn't send payment this turn, but it has just been decided. Panzer32

	31-07-2003 20:39									#206
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I replied twice. First with this:

quote: Unfortunately, the game will not let me investigate anything. My guess is we are not allowed to use espionage while in anarchy. It will have to wait for two more turns. Sorry. I am returning the money. I almost considered keeping it to pay most of what GoW owes us but that is not why the money was sent.

And then with this:

quote: I wanted to clarify. What I did was send back your offer unaccepted.

	01-08-2003 00:13									#207
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Received from Panzer32:

quote: ok. To bad the investigation didn't work out; we might have to take a few more casualties

Any tears for GoW?

	01-08-2003 02:14									#208
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quote: Originally posted by HarryH Any tears for GoW?

No...or at least not until they pay us the money they owe us.

	01-08-2003 02:18									#209
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I got a pm from Hot Enamel asking sort of the same thing.

quote: Hey Beta, Welcome back. GoW are debating what cities we want investigated. If the save moves along fast, can you hold it, and ask us for a final decision on what cities. Many Thanks

And as to us not being able to do it .. yes - big, big, crocodile tears.

Although I guess I am pulling for GoW/ND.

	05-08-2003 09:14									#210
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

What should we do with GoW? They will owe us 115 gold. I am pretty sure that when our next turn comes around they will send money for a new city investigation. I don't want to stop the investigation service as they may just decide they don't need us and renig on the rest of their debt. If it is OK with everyone, I would like to ask them for a payment schedule. Tell them we will be coming out of anarchy shortly and will be burning through money until we can get our cities are more productive. That should at least get them thinking about it and if they don't come up with a payment schedule then we can think about playing harder. What do you think?