14-03-2003 19:15									#31
	Suffering from ads?

Btw, the worker exchange idea is excellent (brilliant idea!) and once the rexing is over we should activate it.
However, I'm quite sure that one can't exchange workers with a civ that doesn't have at least one city on the same landmass.

	17-03-2003 21:58									#32
	Got spare money?

The first part of my chat with GF:

quote: Session Start: Mon Mar 17 16:08:08 2003 Session Ident: GhengisFarb vondrack: hello! GhengisFarb: hello vondrack: glad to meet you again vondrack: hope we will make another good deal today GhengisFarb: I would have thought you would have discovered all of your goody huts vondrack: vondrack: saved for "bad times" vondrack: we anticipated this possibility and gambled a bit vondrack: we are unfreakingbelievably lucky with huts this game vondrack: 6 techs GhengisFarb: legoland huts seem to generate lots of techs vondrack: ok, do you have anything to say before I start talking about the deal? GhengisFarb: no vondrack: fine vondrack: so let me start vondrack: sorry, I will be a bit more detailed to make sure you get the whole picture, ok? GhengisFarb: ok vondrack: it is of course ok to post a log of this chat in your private forum vondrack: so: vondrack: first, our reasons: vondrack: 1) you were fair to us, we want to be fair, too vondrack: you gave us an excellent catch-up deal and a fair deal on Polytheism - we remember that vondrack: 2) we want to help keep the balance of power of Bob vondrack: currently, we believe the best way to achieve that is to support you vondrack: 3) we want to work out a win-win deal including you, us, and GS (possible Voxes - not sure about them, though) vondrack: second, our goals: vondrack: 1) save gold/beakers wasted researching something we already have vondrack: splitting the profit in a fair way between the two of us vondrack: 2) properly time the transition to the medieval times vondrack: 2a) we have a barb problem here, so we need to prepare for that vondrack: 2b) to offer a fair deal to GS, too (on the Republic), we want them to go medieval at the same time vondrack: this is for what leads us to offer the deal vondrack: now the deal vondrack: 1) we suggest that you shut down your research completely, stockpiling cash vondrack: 2) as soon as we get Currency (9-10 turns), we will sell it to you for 60 gold - this part is optional vondrack: 3) as soon as GS discovers the Republic, we trade Republic and Construction for gold to you vondrack: the exact sum to be negotiaited vondrack: the exact timeline would be like this: vondrack: 1) 9-10 turns from now: you get Currency from us for 60 gold (no resale clause, please) vondrack: ...though we may be fine with you reselling it to RPers later on, sharing some part of the profit vondrack: 2) the turn before GS discovers Republic, we offer Construction and "accept" vondrack: 3) you counter with the gold and "accept" vondrack: 4) the turn after we gift you Republic vondrack: well vondrack: that's probably it vondrack: hope I haven't forgotten about anything GhengisFarb: How much gold are we looking at for Currency and Republic? vondrack: we would be looking for an arrangement that leaves you with Curr+Constr+Rep plus some gold vondrack: try coming up with a figure vondrack: you know best how much you can save vondrack: by shutting the research down GhengisFarb: Are you giving Currency to GS? vondrack: yes, that would be part of the deal vondrack: but they would get Constr only afer trading the Rep to us GhengisFarb: So Vox will already have it for free vondrack: so you and them go medieval at the same moment vondrack: nope vondrack: GS would not be allowed to trade it Voxes GhengisFarb: Vox and GS are the same team. vondrack: GS would get Curr+Constr on condition they would not resell it vondrack: I believe they would accept GhengisFarb: They share everything. Vox will simply tell you they are already researching Construction and are only 1 turn from finishing it to cover the fact that GS will give it to them vondrack: we would not accept such approach GhengisFarb: What can you do? Once one of them gets it it is out of your hands vondrack: this deal effectively helps GS keep pace with others as far as going medieval is concerned, so I believe they would accept it vondrack: sure, that's a matter of trust vondrack: it would be negotiated before vondrack: in advance, I mean GhengisFarb: They will but Vox will still get it from them. Vox generates a free tech when it advances to the next era and we were negotiating trading Construction for that tech. vondrack: well, their free tech would also be part of that deal vondrack: we suppose you would get it from them paying with the rest of the saved cash vondrack: so you eventually end up with Curr+Constr+Rep+freetech+nogold vondrack: we might make it part of the deal (that they will sell it to you) GhengisFarb: We simply won't have that much gold. This would cost us over 650 gold and we simply don't have it. vondrack: 650 gold? try giving me the formula, please GhengisFarb: GS/Vox won't sell these techs for anything less than 150 gold each, probably more. GhengisFarb: You want 60 gold for Currency and probably 250 are so for Construction/Republic. vondrack: probably less GhengisFarb: We can continue to research Construction and get it (4 turns after you would have given it to us) for far less than we can purchase it for. vondrack: also, what techS? vondrack: just Voxes' free tech, right? GhengisFarb: Yes, assuming we buy Republic from you. vondrack: we would be looking for something like 250 gold for all the techs we'd be supposed to deliver to you vondrack: you use the rest to get Voxes' free tech GhengisFarb: That's 310 gold and we are trying to save up to be able to upgrade when GS/Vox invade vondrack: we would push a bit to make them accept whatever you would have remaining vondrack: hmmm... how much would you be able to save? vondrack: I do not expect GS to be done with Rep earlier than in 15 turns, probably few more GhengisFarb: Then we have construction by then because we finish it in 15 or less turns. vondrack: not if you shut your reserach down vondrack: stockpiling cash vondrack: nobody else would be able to get Constr earlier vondrack: and if we make it 18 turns, you just get 3 more turns to save cash GhengisFarb: Why can't we purchase Construction now? vondrack: you'd go medieval long before GS would - that we do not want to happen (not a good deal for them) vondrack: we are trying to arrange a deal where everybody gains something GhengisFarb: We can't go medieval withou currency vondrack: currency will be available no later than in 9-10 turns vondrack: that is when we will have it (our own research) vondrack: plus, as I said, we (Lego) need some time to prepare for the barb uprisings spawned once two teams go medieval GhengisFarb: You've got 9 turns, we would be willing to send some Horsemen to help with barbarians. We are trying to get them promoted to elite status on barbs but their isn't any frre space for barbs over here anymore. vondrack: I am sorry this is unfortunately not an option vondrack: Lego is a bit secretive about its land GhengisFarb: I will discuss this with my team, but am not sure they will accept it. Could you send me the complete offer in the form of a pm so that I can post in our forum for them to discuss. vondrack: and keep in mind we want this trade to be fair to GS, too - if they are left stuck in ancient times, while we and you jump to mediaval, the price of Republic would go up vondrack: well, I could... but would this chat not be enough? vondrack: I mean vondrack: it's not a problem, but I think I was pretty precise vondrack: would save me some time vondrack: nevermind, if you wish me to make it "official", I will GhengisFarb: WIth the timetable and gold amounts included in the pm as we discussed different options, this helps to avoid misunderstandings later. As our teams would simply have one concise pm to go by and not an entire log to sift through. vondrack: ok, will do that shortly vondrack: anything else to include? GhengisFarb: In a log some comments can be taken out of context. vondrack: agreed, I will PM vondrack: to make it clear - we do not have any response from GS yet (we PMed DeepO about 5 hours ago) vondrack: but the deals with you and them and not 100% interdependent vondrack: so I wanted to talk to you ASAP GhengisFarb: No rush, I don't understand why GS would necessarily be left in the ancient age. You could trade them Construction early for a safety deposit of gold (they did that to us) and then they would go Medieveal with the rest of us and give you Republic when they finish it for the safety deposit back. vondrack: the problem with this is vondrack: that they do go medieval vondrack: but can't start researching anything, since still doing Republic vondrack: they would be unhappy about that, I think GhengisFarb: There are only 3 tech that can be researched in the medieval age, and there are 6 civs. vondrack: correct vondrack: which will make them even more sensitive about the issue, I think vondrack: do not get me wrong, please vondrack: this in not an attempt to lick GS' feet GhengisFarb: half the civs would have to research something else anyways, Monarchy and Republic are just as important as the first Medieval ones as they improve your science production. vondrack: but we would like to form sort of a research coalition with you and GS GhengisFarb: The problem is if all 6 civs are trying ot research teh three techs at the beginning of the medieval age they war is almost unavoidable as three civs are no longer needed to advance the tech tree. vondrack: well, this problem would emerge anyways, right? GhengisFarb: not if GS and Rp are researching the governents and three other civs are researching Medieval techs. That gives 5 civs something to research vondrack: that would just delay the problem a bit, not solve it GhengisFarb: So you want to rush war between the civs? vondrack: nope, I believe there is still room enough to cooperate vondrack: 3 vs 3 vondrack: 4 vs 2 vondrack: without a war vondrack: I admit I know little about how tense relations are vondrack: among Bobians vondrack: between Bobians and Estonias vondrack: so I may be talking crap vondrack: you tell me GhengisFarb: I think my team would be more interested in a deal for Construction and Currency and leave Republic out of it. vondrack: well, we would still not sell Construction earlier vondrack: and I want to avoid you researching it anyways GhengisFarb: How much would you want to sell Constuction and Currency for in 15 turns. vondrack: I would have to consult, but the idea was that the Republic was thrown in basically as a free extra to make you happy about the deal vondrack: at least IIRC GhengisFarb: So you would sell us Currency in 9 turns for 60 gold and Construction in 15 turns for 250 gold? vondrack: nope 60+190 vondrack: 250 together vondrack: Republic included GhengisFarb: I am pretty sure my team would agree to buy Currency for 60 gold in 9 turns. vondrack: Republic included on condition we wait for GS, of course vondrack: well, yes, we can make the deal on Currency independent vondrack: that is an option - but we would ask for a no-whore clause GhengisFarb: That would assure you of some profit immediately for Currency. vondrack: yes, that was our original intention vondrack: since Currency will allow you to build mktplaces GhengisFarb: We would agree not to sell or trade it for anything. vondrack: Currency would be provided ASAP vondrack: Constr once the Rep becomes available GhengisFarb: I'm not sure how close ND is to finishing it though. vondrack: me neither, but our intel indicated they would not get it earlier vondrack: though the intel might have been wrong vondrack: ND seem to be pretty weak research-wise GhengisFarb: That may be true they may have their tech rate reduced vondrack: that's what I believ, too vondrack: we believe their max res output is about 20 bpt vondrack: and we don‘t think they are researching at full speed vondrack: either way, they would not be done earlier vondrack: and if they were vondrack: and offered a lower price GhengisFarb: I don't know their capital is on a heavily rivered area with luxuries. vondrack: we would be able to accomodate you on the price GhengisFarb: Are you offering them Currency? vondrack: not yet vondrack: trying to find out how long it would take them to get it on their own vondrack: as I said - we would not be able to guarantee we would have Currenecy before them, but we would be able to guarantee a fair deal on it vondrack: 10 turns max is what I can guarantee GhengisFarb: My team may be willing to pay the 190 for Construction and Republic. But I am not sure. vondrack: sure, I am not pushing this GhengisFarb: We have time to work out the deal for it. vondrack: if I were you I would have to bring it to my teammates as well vondrack: yep vondrack: the crucial thing is vondrack: for you vondrack: to decide whether you shut your research down or not now GhengisFarb: Yes vondrack: every turn spent researching Const is basically more or less wasted vondrack: that's why I wanted to talk to you ASAP vondrack: our intentions are genuine GhengisFarb: I will present this to my team. vondrack: ok vondrack: I will sum it up in a PM vondrack: you should have it within 30 minutes vondrack: also vondrack: one more question... vondrack: what are your plans regarding the galley that landed on the Mystery Island? vondrack: we would appreciate if it does not press further westwards... not a request... just something we would appreciate vondrack: just as we withdrew our galley from your coast GhengisFarb: It is most likely going to explore your coast. vondrack: hmmm vondrack: as I said... GhengisFarb: 1) GoW has no interests in attacking Legoland, we already are in the process of preparing to fight someone else vondrack: we will consider it a gesture of good will, if it heads back home... but the decision is yours, I am in no way trying to request anything vondrack: I am glad to hear you do not plan to go hostile towards us vondrack: it should be mutually beneficial to cooperate vondrack: errrr... what a crap ) GhengisFarb: We are also mapping out the Vox GS continent. We aren't landing anything just mapping out the coast. vondrack: ok, unless you land a unit, there should be no problem vondrack: even tough we would still... errrr... repeating myself vondrack: not a big deal GhengisFarb: There won't be any units on it, it will be an empty galley vondrack: ok GhengisFarb: Aro really wants to make a world map. vondrack: LoL vondrack: he really is into maps, isn't he? GhengisFarb: Yes GhengisFarb: I don't know how it will work since we are all different teams but I think he wants to make a world map for the main forum.

	17-03-2003 22:01									#33
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The second part of my chat with GhengisFarb:

quote: vondrack: btw vondrack: just talking to my mate vondrack: GS indicate they might have Rep on Turn 84 vondrack: that's the same time as we'd have Curr vondrack: so the whole thing would be faster that I thought vondrack: probably - need to verify that GhengisFarb: But would you still give us Construction on Turn 84? vondrack: yes, at the same time GhengisFarb: ok vondrack: our goal is to make everybody involved get Curr+Constr+Rep within a two turn period vondrack: just depending on how things work out vondrack: probably on the same turn vondrack: we might ask GS to give you Rep on the turn they discover it... dunno if it's any better for you GhengisFarb: When is Roleplay supposed to finish Monarchy, and have you made any offers to them about this deal? I assume I am not to mention this chat to anyone outside our team. vondrack: no idea about when RPers finish Mon vondrack: they were not made any offers vondrack: and yes, keep this to your team only vondrack: re: RPers vondrack: we currently see limited opportunities to trade with them vondrack: there is unfortunately kind of a shadow lying over our relations vondrack: we DID make them an offer which seemed fair to us (not this deal, something different before we got Constr) GhengisFarb: Did something happen? vondrack: they said it WAS fair vondrack: but rejected it vondrack: I would better not comment vondrack: the fact is vondrack: that our relations with you and GS are much better than with RPers vondrack: keep this to yourself, please GhengisFarb: I told you early on they seem to be playing under the mind set that they are the human team and we are the AI teams. They don't quite seem to grasp that all of the teams are human. vondrack: my personal impression is that they were expecting too much from a cooperation with Lego GhengisFarb: Are relations with the RPer are much better than with GS/Vox vondrack: yes, much like if we were an AI civ vondrack: hmmm... so you do not get well along with GS/Voxes? GhengisFarb: They are very antagonistic towards us. It is fairly obvious they are planning a joint invasion of GoW. vondrack: hmmm... I can see why you do not like the idea of making the deal beneficial to them, too vondrack: but keep in mind Lego is sort of "outside", so we do not really have any ties/problems with Estonians GhengisFarb: Once we reach the Medieval Age they will attack and try to destroy us before we can research Chivalry. vondrack: do you think thay have means to? vondrack: I mean... navy and such? GhengisFarb: They will probably shuttle forces across the strait. vondrack: hmmm... vondrack: I suppose Bobians would unite then? vondrack: pushing them back to the sea GhengisFarb: i don't know. vondrack: ok, I am going to finally finish the PM (working on it in parallel) vondrack: the next step will be yours GhengisFarb: ok, it will probably be a day or two. vondrack: it's up to you GhengisFarb: Just letting you know it won't be fully discussed today. vondrack: okay vondrack: also vondrack: considering how early Rep should be available vondrack: we might want to base the gold sum paid upon the number of turns to the conclusion of the deal vondrack: feel free to come up with a reasonable idea vondrack: I will include my original proposal vondrack: 60+190 GhengisFarb: I am not sure if you are aware of this so I am going to give you a heads up. GhengisFarb: This puts Lego in a VERY strong position. Historically, when a team gains a strong position other teams start devising plans to weaken it. IE, when ND advanced faster in tech due to its Expansionistic trait the other three civs formed a tech limitation deal against them until the techs were equal again. GhengisFarb: Lego is on an isolated continent, is in full control of Currency and Construction and stands to make lots of money. This is most likely going to set you up as a VERY BIG target. vondrack: well, what we can do about that? return Construction to the hut? vondrack: we plan to be reasonable about future tech deals as well GhengisFarb: No, I'm simply letting you know so you are prepared for very unfair offers other civs may make in the future. vondrack: I understand. Thanks. vondrack: here is the text of my PM so far: vondrack: it looks so brief I am hesitating if it is complete: vondrack: Following our chat, here goes Legoland's trade proposal: vondrack: 1) Legoland will sell Currency to GoW for 60 gold no later than on Turn 84. GoW will agree to not resell Currency to anybody else for 20 turns. vondrack: 2) Legoland will sell Construction and Republic to GoW for 190 gold on the turn Republic is available for trading. GoW will agree to not resell these techs to anybody else for 20 turns. vondrack: --- vondrack: what is missing? vondrack: btw, the only money we would get would be from yourself, I think GhengisFarb: Like I said before GoW has no hostile plans towards Lego, it was our hope from the beginning that we could make some for of arrangement with Lego where we provided the Military and you provided the Science. vondrack: yep, agreed vondrack: would you have a look at the PM text, please? vondrack: it looks so short... GhengisFarb: That sounds fine. I will do everyghing possible to convince my team to agree to it. The short treaties are the easiest to stick to. vondrack: ok, will send it in a couple of minutes vondrack: sent - I added an alternative to "2)" (just a technical change)... whatever suits your needs better vondrack: ttyl GhengisFarb: Okay, something that may come up: vondrack: more news vondrack: just got a PM from ND vondrack: they admit they will have Curr in like 20 turns GhengisFarb: We will basically be paying the amount it would have cost us to research Construction for Construction. Only we won't be able to trade it where we would if we finished researching it. Is there some possibility of reducing the cost since we are agreeing to not trade these techs to anyone? vondrack: hmmm... what about getting the possibility to trade it to ND? vondrack: also, you would be paying much less Construction costs 20*24=480 beakers vondrack: we ask for 250 for Curr+Constr+Rep vondrack: that's fair even if we consider the tech cost discount vondrack: based upon we get it already GhengisFarb: That might work, we should coordinate our efforts to work together so that we get teh maximium bang for the buck. We need to aquire Monarch from Roleplay and Monotheism from Vox and it would help if we didn't compete on price vondrack: as I said, we might consider leaving it up to you to sell Constr to ND... but that is only my PERSONAL idea, not yet consulted with my team - so keep this in mind, please vondrack: though my teammates usually agree with me eventually vondrack: good, we'd sell them (ND) Currency, you would sell them Construction - that might work GhengisFarb: Since you get along with GS Lego could do all negotiations with them, and GoW could do all negotiations with RP. Basically we coudl play good tech trader/bad tech trader vondrack: not sure about this vondrack: RPers would probably feel offended if we were doing trade with them through GoW vondrack: I know it makes little sense, considering what I said before vondrack: but it is that way GhengisFarb: No, you don't understand. You still attempt to trade with them, you just offer GS the better deal, and we offer Lego the better deal. They are none the wiser and accept the better deal because they think its a bargain compared to what the other team offered them. GhengisFarb: Not Lego, RP vondrack: I see vondrack: that would still not work, I am afraid vondrack: I am not at liberty to tell why vondrack: but we might try it the other way round vondrack: THAT would work perfectly, I think vondrack: sorry for sounding so secretive - obligations to honor

And the PM I sent him after the chat ended:

quote: Following our chat, here goes Legoland's trade proposal: 1) Legoland will sell Currency to GoW for 60 gold no later than on Turn 84. GoW will agree to not resell Currency to anybody else for 20 turns. 2a) Legoland will sell Construction and Republic to GoW for 190 gold on the turn Republic is available for trading. GoW will agree to not resell these techs to anybody else for 20 turns. 2b) Legoland will sell Construction to GoW for 190 gold one turn before Republic becomes available for trading. Legoland will gift Republic to GoW on the next turn for free. GoW will agree to not resell these two techs to anybody else for 20 turns. Choose whichever of 2a/2b suits you better. Respectfully, Radek aka vondrack President of Legoland

Everybody, comment NOW!

	17-03-2003 23:04									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Phew... if there's one thing this game breeds, it's distrust. What we can garner from this message is that GoW is clearly afraid of the Estonians, though I think that may be overblown a bit. It would be quite a task for the Estonian civs to successfully launch an invasion of GoW at this point, just due to geography. I would think it likely that they may try to settle Eastern Bob, which could lead to a war, however.

I think something is going to break in the next 10 turns or so, either between Bobian civs, or between Estonia and Bob. That said, I still think we need to be ready for anything. As GF said, we do make a nice juicy target. I'm going to write up another defense analysis and come up with some plans for building up our forces to deal with any threats. Fortress Legos must be ready!

	18-03-2003 02:06									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

What invasion? The Estonians have week military, compared to Bob. This is a bluff, to make us suspicious about the Estonians and force us to choose GoW as our primary trading partner.

GF is a difficult trading partner. By difficult, I mean tough, clever, skilled in deception. I'd not take as granted everything he says. I was afraid that something like this could happen (tough negotiations, instead of smooth treaties). If our position wasn't so good, they might have tried to extort more from this treaty. Obviously they are not happy with GS+Vox gaining so much from this deal, but what can they do? With or without them, we are going to do the trades with GS, so they better accept for the sake of their own interest.

Last edited by Tiberius on 18-03-2003 at 02:24

	18-03-2003 06:31									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I have to say I'm not too happy with two things that slipped out: our cooling relations with the RPers (which even they may not be quite aware of yet), and ND's turns-to-currency. If either slips out, it could get the team involved mad at us - and very untrusting, in the case of ND; I don't think they told us not to pass on their research information, but it's good form to keep it to ourselves.

It may be time to express some of our dissatisfaction to the RPers. If GoW does leak what GF was told about them, we can hopefully beat them to RP; and I think we do need to hammer out something new in our "alliance" with RP. And who knows... perhaps they can actually meet us halfway. While I doubt they'll ever be the close allies we had hoped, we might actually set up a good trading relationship.

	18-03-2003 13:47									#37
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Reading the chat once again... Maybe the GoW doesn't want the Republic. They may aim for Monarchy, and this is why probably GF wasn't that happy for the Republic part.

So I was thinking that maybe we could propose them to leave the Republic out of this deal, and lower the price for the other two, especially that the deal is closer (in time) than we thought.

How about 200 for Currency and Construction, without Reprublic? Then either they trade them with the RPs for Monachy or we trade them with the RPS and sell Monarchy to the GoW as part of a future deal.

	18-03-2003 20:52									#38
	Increase Your PM Length

I'll get on RP maybe they'll change there minds.

	18-03-2003 22:52									#39
	Put an end to popups!

well this is a good deal for us, but why are they giving us so many techs??? I mean we trade one tech for 4, am I missing something or does this sound just too good to be true?

	19-03-2003 03:21									#40
	Tired of ads?

Jack, this was a long time ago. Now we are giving them 3 techs for no tech, but money

	19-03-2003 03:38									#41
	Inflate your Upload Space

double post

Last edited by Tiberius on 19-03-2003 at 03:46

	19-03-2003 21:56									#42
	Tired of ads?

I have just received a PM from GhengisFarb:

quote: quote: vondrack wrote on 17-03-2003 10:38: Following our chat, here goes Legoland's trade proposal: 1) Legoland will sell Currency to GoW for 60 gold no later than on Turn 84. GoW will agree to not resell Currency to anybody else for 20 turns. 2a) Legoland will sell Construction and Republic to GoW for 190 gold on the turn Republic is available for trading. GoW will agree to not resell these techs to anybody else for 20 turns. 2b) Legoland will sell Construction to GoW for 190 gold one turn before Republic becomes available for trading. Legoland will gift Republic to GoW on the next turn for free. GoW will agree to not resell these two techs to anybody else for 20 turns. Choose whichever of 2a/2b suits you better. Respectfully, Radek aka vondrack President of Legoland My team would be willing to accept this offer and agree to not discuss it or trade any of the techs if we are allowed to sell/trade them to ND. We had previously agreed to trade them Construction for Currency and they seem to be bent on researching Currency theirselves and made it sound very ominous if we should try to edit the preagreed deal (the ND/GoW relationship is edgy at best as we are right up in each other's faces and a blink by either side could escalate into something not pleasant). We need to come with a plan to get Monotheism from Vox. If they are evasive about making a deal with you (they may be wary of letting your team get too powerful) we would be willing to broker a deal to them and they immediately gift it to you.

And here is my response to him:

quote: Hello, GhengisFarb! I will post your message in our forum. Though we will need to discuss for a wee while, letting you trade Curr and Constr to ND sounds like an option, if you sweeten the deal just a little bit... What about throwing in the contact to Voxes for free? We still lack that one - it's actually the last one we lack... We were supposed to get it anyway according to the 1300BC treaty, but it hasn't been a big deal so far, so we haven't pushed it... If we can get rid of it in this way.... However, we will not be able to allow you to trade Republic to ND, that I am sure of - sorry for that. As that tech is not "ours" (in the sense that we will not have it researched it by ourselves), we can do very little about it. Hope it will not be a major problem. I will get back to you ASAP. Cheers, Radek

Putting together this post, however, adding comments, I realized I was confused what exactly GoW needed and asked GF for a chat:

quote: Session Start: Wed Mar 19 16:54:05 2003 Session Ident: GhengisFarb vondrack: Hello! GhengisFarb: Hello vondrack: just a couple of questions regarding the proposed adjustment to the trade treaty... vondrack: will you explain what ND's intentions are, please? GhengisFarb: I don't know, we had agreed to trade them Construction for Currency (we were each researching one) they want us to fulfill our part of the deal by trading them Construction. vondrack: I asked because vondrack: it seems to me that what you need is the right to trade them Construction, right? vondrack: 'cause they would be supposed to throw in the Currency vondrack: is that correct? GhengisFarb: Yes, we need to be able to honor our agreement. We plan on doing the entire deal with you , but need the ability to trade ND Construction so that we can fulfill our agreed to treaty. vondrack: that would be ok, I believe - how would you handle the situation, if they need Constr from you, but have nothing to counter with (as you'd have Curr form us) vondrack: gold? GhengisFarb: No we would just give it to them. They are attempting to fulfill their side in the agreed to limits, the fact that we got it from someone else earlier does not void the deal vondrack: I see, that's ok vondrack: it is a "guaranteed deal", right? GhengisFarb: We did the same with a deal with Lux, and one with RP vondrack: I recall the idea GhengisFarb: We feel ethically correct because we fulfilled our end even though we no longer needed their end vondrack: now what about Republic? I indicated we would not be able to grant you rights to trade it to other teams vondrack: would that be a problem? GhengisFarb: We have never discussed any trade relating to Republic with anyone but Lego. vondrack: ok vondrack: I just got confused by the wording of your PM, it seems vondrack: I felt like you needed to be able to trade all of the techs covered by the deal GhengisFarb: What about Monotheism, and the techs to be researched in the new age? vondrack: we are not completely done with the Monotheism deal yet vondrack: but we seem to be on the right track vondrack: however, if we get stuck vondrack: I will gladly accept any help GhengisFarb: It pointless for us to research Mono when Vox gets it for free. vondrack: yes vondrack: anyway vondrack: I believe we will be able to get it vondrack: so it's quite unlikely you would get involved GhengisFarb: What does Lego plan to research? vondrack: we are not yet decided, but we lean towards the "upper" part of the techtree vondrack: towards Education GhengisFarb: So Theology? vondrack: as we have little need for Military techs... vondrack: quite likely, yes GhengisFarb: We plan to research Feudalism (Pikemen) and would be interested in potential trades for it. vondrack: but mind you, we are consulting number of possible options - also depends on where we find our best partners GhengisFarb: IT should be obvious we intend to work towards Chivalry and our UU vondrack: yes, I understand vondrack: but I would prefer leaving this be for a couple of turns... things can change a lot GhengisFarb: True, as did Construction. vondrack: yep vondrack: so, to sum it up: vondrack: what you need is the right to give/sell/whatever Construction to ND, correct? vondrack: that would be the only change to the proposed deal GhengisFarb: Yes vondrack: that sounds doable... would you consider balancing this with a contact to Voxes? GhengisFarb: Sure vondrack: that I believe we will have a deal very soon vondrack: I need to get the approval of my team vondrack: but I do believe there will be no problem GhengisFarb: Do we have any more clarification on the completiion time? vondrack: sorry, not yet - 10 turns max still applies vondrack: there was so much happening with ISDG GhengisFarb: Ok vondrack: that I had not time to work on my XLSs

Now, the change GoW ask for is very simple:

1. allow them to trade Construction to ND
2. get a free contact to Voxes in return

I suggest that we take the deal, since it will most likely help us strike the deal with... surprise!... ND.

It now makes sense - ND cannot accept the deal we offered them (included a no-whore clause), unless we let them trade Currency to GoW - because of their deal. So, if we let GoW trade Construction for Currency with ND, we can "generously allow" ND to trade Currency to GoW for Construction, asking few more gold. Lovely, is it not?

So, I say, let's go for it.

And I am going to PM [DG]helios, carefully touching the issue of easing the no-whore clause a little bit... Folks, I just love this game.

	20-03-2003 01:20									#43
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Sounds good, I agree with the modification in the GoW treaty.

Go ahead and try the new proposal with the ND, but if I was you I wouldn't askfor more money. There are only 9 turns left or so, and they can't make very much gold in such a short period.

	20-03-2003 07:22									#44
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hmmm... as an interesting note, when playing the turn today, I noted that GoW and ND have an active trade marked off in the foreign advisor screen. Wonder what that's about...

	20-03-2003 11:09									#45
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If ND granted iron to GoW, then they must be out of their mind. More likely a luxury trade, IMHO.

	21-03-2003 14:51									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Just sent the following PM to GhengisFarb:

quote: OK, here is the final treaty proposal - sorry for not sending it earlier... I hoped to have one more chat with you prior to sending it. But as what I want to discuss is basically independent from the treaty, here you are: GoW-Lego Currency/Construction/Republic trade treaty of 1100BC Legoland agrees to make the following deal with Glory of War: 1) Glory of War will provide Legoland with a free contact to Vox Controli immediately after ratifying this treaty. 2) Legoland will sell Currency to Glory of War for 60 gold no later than on Turn 84. GoW will be free to trade this technology to Neu Demogyptica, but nobody else. 3) Legoland will sell Construction and Republic to Glory of War for 190 gold on the turn Republic is available for trading. Glory of War agrees to not resell these techs to anybody else for 20 turns. Signed Radek aka vondrack The President of Legoland

	24-03-2003 13:47									#47
	Increase Your PM Length

Radek, did they approve it? I know they gave us the Vox contact, but is the treaty "official" ?

	24-03-2003 13:54									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Radek, did they approve it? I know they gave us the Vox contact, but is the treaty "official" ?

Hmmm... can't find any written approval from them. Will ask GF for one.

	28-03-2003 11:49									#49
	Support Apolyton

Did we get the approval from GF? Is it a deal or not?
If not, should we maybe add a a clause, in case the GS Republic treaty won't succed? (like selling only Construction for 150 gold).

	28-03-2003 12:00									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Did we get the approval from GF? Is it a deal or not? If not, should we maybe add a a clause, in case the GS Republic treaty won't succed? (like selling only Construction for 150 gold).

Still waiting for it... Last time I spoke to GF (2 days ago?), he indicated he would like to see the no-whoring periods shortened to 10 turns only... which I actually did not object too much, as in 10 turns, there will be nobody to sell them to anyway... I sent him a draft (not signed from our side), but he hasn't responded yet.

I will try talking to him today, asking what they plan to do with the trade... possibly finding out whether they'd be willing to postpone the Republic part of the deal or something like that...

	30-03-2003 04:49									#51
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

OK, finally! Here is the deal:

quote: quote: GoW-Lego Trade Agreement of 950BC (Curr+Constr+Rep) 1) Legoland agrees to sell Currency to GoW for 60 gold no later than on Turn 83 (so that GoW receives it - due to the playing order - no later than on its Turn 84). GoW agrees to not resell/trade/gift Currency to anybody else for 10 turns. 2) Legoland agrees to sell Construction to GoW for the sum of 95 gold one turn before acquiring Republic (due to the playing order, GoW will receive the technology on the same term as Legoland acquires Republic). GoW agrees to not resell/trade/gift Construction to anyone else, but Neu Demogyptica, for 10 turns. 3) Legoland agrees to sell Republic to GoW for the sum of 95 gold on the turn it acquires this technology (due to the playing order, GoW will receive the technology only on the following turn). GoW agrees to not resell/trade/gift Republic to anybody else for 20 turns. On behalf of Legoland: vondrack, The President Agreed. Signed, GhengisFarb (for Glory of War)

	07-04-2003 07:17									#52
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I meant to bring this up earlier, but with the recent info from Vox and our souring relations with GS and RP, it seems even more pertinant. If the team approves, I'd like to look into trying to develop a NAP with GoW for the time being. Something along the lines of a 20-turn deal, much like we've arranged in the ISDG. If you all give me the go-ahead, I'll start talking to GF about it.

	07-04-2003 07:24									#53
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hmm, actually that might not be a bad idea.

Maybe even make trade deals with them "in return for the favor of bringing Lego up to speed in tech" (but not at much of a bargain of course).

I have a suspicion that Vox may not be getting the entire story from GoW that perhaps they will help Vox and then initially go against RP with ND, but then perhaps backstab ND when most of ND's forces are south of the jungle in RP's territory.

As I remarked to Vondrack in the chatroom, who would gain the most from RP's defeat - ND or GoW? Of course it is ND - and GoW knows that - and will likely be trying to prevent ND from becoming too powerful by taking over all of RP's area.

On the other hand, we would need to be careful about RP - don't want them joining up in a Grand Bob alliance (not likely that will happen but worrysome if it did).

	07-04-2003 08:29									#54
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The thing of it is, under every scenario we've heard of so far (or speculate about), it doesn't involve GoW fighting with us. Hence, getting a NAP should be relatively easy for now. Like you said, throw in a few trade deals for sweetener, and we can probably make if not a good ally, at least a friendly, well-armed neighbor.

	07-04-2003 09:35									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I don't think this is a good idea. RPers are an odd and bad enough target; Lego just won't figure into a possible attack over the next 30 turns. If we sign a NAP, we are removing the possibility of pressuring GoW to sign peace (lest they grow more powerful and someone be eliminated). With a NAP, we'd be threatening to break a treaty, not a good thing for our reputation whether we actually do it or not.

A NAP might be a good idea in 20 or 30 turns, but not now. Let's keep our options open till war breaks out and sides are a little clearer.

	11-04-2003 03:23									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Quite by chance, both Panzer32 and ZargonX happened to be online today. ZargonX tried to talk to Panzer32 about the tech deal (Feu+Chiv for Theo+Edu) idea we discussed in our Enlightened thread recently... it was a little bit difficult to get any information out of Panzer32 until GhengisFarb showed up. GF was apparently listening up in the background for a while and joined us once it was obvious what our intentions were... here is the log, just slightly edited (irrelevant chitchat deleted):

quote: Session Start: Thu Apr 10 22:22:14 2003 Session Ident: #GoW * Now talking in #GoW ZargonX: Hey vondrack: hello Panzer32: GF should be along here soon ZargonX: Excellent Panzer32: so, feud + chiv for theology + edu? vondrack: well, most probably some kind of a balance... the costs are 32+32 for 40+44 vondrack: but we are open to various balances vondrack: let me explain our approach a bit, ok? vondrack: after making contact, we had a hectic period of "first deals" vondrack: during that time, we sort of "learnt" whom to trade with... vondrack: some teams were making good deals with us vondrack: others tried to rip us off, we remember well vondrack: we would now like to continue mostly with those that were fair to us vondrack: making key deals with them, leaving others "for later" vondrack: we did some fine deals with you and we'd like to continue doing so vondrack: so, here comes the idea: vondrack: basically, you'd provide Feu+Chiv, we would provide Theo+Edu vondrack: as the research costs differ more than negligibly vondrack: we would like to negotiate some kind of a balance vondrack: but not necessarily to an extent making the deal completely even - we would be happy to make it a bit in your favour vondrack: very soon, true cooperation will become more important than getting the very last piece of gold out of every deal Panzer32: hmm... we have a rather large world map, that could be used as part of the balence vondrack: ok, let's talk about possible balances then vondrack: your map certainly has a value vondrack: though maybe not as high as it would if it was the first map of Bob we'd be getting vondrack: I will be honest - we were able to get the map of Bob through a trade many turns ago vondrack: the trade was mostly a mistake by the other team vondrack: but it was not possible to revert it back ZargonX: vondrack: so it ended up with them getting some gold out of it vondrack: no hard feelings vondrack: but your map still is of interest to us... as I understand one of your exploring galleys set sail eastwards, towards Estonia Panzer32: how long until you get theology? vondrack: enhancing our world map with a bit of Estonian coastline would be nice vondrack: let me check vondrack: at the moment, the game shows 14 turns vondrack: but we are going to finish some Libs soon vondrack: so that will speed the research a bit, I believe (~1-2 turns) Panzer32: how about Vox's world map? vondrack: Vox's world map? you happen to have it? Panzer32: yes. vondrack: whew vondrack: I thought you were enemies or something like that Panzer32: we traded before the war... it all came out of their first landing. vondrack: I see vondrack: well, it seems that your map certainly has a fine value - let's keep that in mind vondrack: now something else vondrack: how much you would be willing to reveal about your wonder building plans? * GhengisFarb has joined #GoW GhengisFarb: Hello ZargonX: Hello, Ghengis vondrack: hello, GhengisFarb! Panzer32: hey GF Note: I copied the previous conversation for GF here. GhengisFarb: We know all about you buying the map from ND vondrack: ok vondrack: I did not know if it was okay to tell you GhengisFarb: ND told us vondrack: ok, what about the wonder builds? vondrack: if we tell you what we are not going to build, would you do the same? GhengisFarb: Are you actually building the Pyramids or is it a prebuild? vondrack: actually building GhengisFarb: It would be far more useful to you than us and I think it would be highly unlikely for us to beat you to it. I want to switch our shields to Leonardo's Workshop vondrack: yes, there is no way you could beat us... vondrack: Leo's is something we have no interest in GhengisFarb: We have no interest in Sun Tzu vondrack: hmmm... neither have we GhengisFarb: What wonders are you interested in? vondrack: happiness wonders vondrack: Sistine & Bach vondrack: would there be an agreement reachable? GhengisFarb: We were interested in Bach I believe. GhengisFarb: But that is quite a ways off. ZargonX: indeed vondrack: well, I do not think I am authorized to negotiate anything about Bach's ATM... but nothing is set in stone, we are ready to talk GhengisFarb: However, your team probably need these more that ours as you only have one luxury until Seafaring vondrack: yes, that is why we are considering them very seriously vondrack: one luxury is woefully little GhengisFarb: They will take a while to build unless you have GL's GhengisFarb: vondrack: no GL's ) we do not fight... yet, that is... vondrack: we build things the hard way GhengisFarb: We might offer you that "joint military exercise" concept. ZargonX: from your team's original charter? vondrack: yeah... elite & leader breeding, right? GhengisFarb: Yep GhengisFarb: I would think it would be a lot faster as you almost have Theology. vondrack: that is definitely another fine idea, but it is a bit of roulette playing... vondrack: every warrior costs 10 shields, built in a city not connected to iron vondrack: that is: not connected to our road network GhengisFarb: True, how did your team feel about the Worker exchange. vondrack: excellent idea vondrack: I have just one doubt about it vondrack: can we directly exchange workers if we have no cities on the same landmass? ZargonX: I believe it is possible, though I am not sure vondrack: I guess we would have to arrange "capturing" them GhengisFarb: I think so, but we may have to have a trade connection via harbors. vondrack: maybe on Baby Bob? GhengisFarb: That would work Panzer32: how much slower would the captured workers be? vondrack: they work half as fast ZargonX: captured workers function at half speed vondrack: but since we are both industrial GhengisFarb: normal rate instead of twice as fast for being Industrious vondrack: it means 100% of the "normal" speed vondrack: I believe that this concept will become the question of the day in about 20 turns for us vondrack: at that time, we will be ready to start swapping workers this way vondrack: until then, we do not seem to have any we could miss Panzer32: so, your being industrial doesn't effect the workers others have captured from you? GhengisFarb: You will need a lot of workers to clear that jungle you talk about. vondrack: yes, exactly GhengisFarb: What's the tech trade idea, we should be able to get Feudalism in 3 turns but it has a ten turn no trade clause GhengisFarb: 10 turn no trade clause vondrack: ok, the tech deal first vondrack: that is not a problem for us vondrack: we do not need Feu, we need Chiv actually vondrack: Mercs are better than Pikes and we do not intend to go after Sun Tzu GhengisFarb: Chiv won't be an issue as we will research it ourselves. vondrack: so getting both techs only after you have them is fine vondrack: no problem GhengisFarb: Do Merc upgrade to Med Infant? vondrack: nope, to Musketmen, they are defenders 2-3-1, replace spears GhengisFarb: That's a long ways into the future ZargonX: they just skip the medieval stage vondrack: so, what about a deal like this: vondrack: 1) Lego provides Theology+Education vondrack: 2) GoW provides Feudalism+Chivalry vondrack: 3) GoW will agree to not build Sistine & Bach, Lego will agree to not build Leo's vondrack: delivery times: vondrack: Theology once it is discovered, but comes with an NDA vondrack: Feu+Chiv for Edu once available vondrack: NDAs in effect, too vondrack: expire 10 turns after the second swap vondrack: ? Panzer32: so we can't trade theology until 10 turns after the second trade? vondrack: yes, that was the idea vondrack: otherwise, we'd prefer swapping all techs at once vondrack: once they are discovered vondrack: but I thought you might wish to build a cathedral or two vondrack: so it could help you to get the tech earlier GhengisFarb: I don't have a problem with that, but will need to post it the team forum. ZargonX: of course vondrack: no problem, of course vondrack: we have pre-discussed this in our forum a bit GhengisFarb: Can you post it in the forum, Panzer? vondrack: so it is very likely we would be happy with this deal vondrack: 99%, I'd say Panzer32: Yup, I'll post it. vondrack: but the support for this idea was quite strong vondrack: we DO want to make a deal you'd be happy with vondrack: and we do NOT want to make deals with teams that tried to rip us off GhengisFarb: I think its a very good deal. ZargonX: it's nice to have fair partners in this crazy Apolyton world ZargonX: which, as recent events have shown, can get very crazy indeed GhengisFarb: Who tried to rip you off? vondrack: errrr vondrack: perhaps we shall not... GhengisFarb: If someone screwed you we need to know to watch out for them. GhengisFarb: I don't want to get screwed too vondrack: let's put it this way: vondrack: we had no deal with ND (other than the map one) vondrack: we made a fine deal with you & Voxes vondrack: other deals of ours were fine, too vondrack: but we had to work hard on them GhengisFarb: I told you about GS and Roleplay and their negotiation styles.............. vondrack: vondrack: yep ZargonX: well, GS's negotiating tactics have clearly paid off for them vondrack: LoL vondrack: yes! vondrack: it will once be a terrific story to be told by Trip the Historian! GhengisFarb: I'm not sure if GS will be around much longer. Vox had A LOT of gold to upgrade warriors to immortals with. vondrack: but they seem to be risking a two front war? ZargonX: Yes, a large force of immortals is not something to scoff at vondrack: it sort of looks now as if it was just a cover for their sneak attack at GS...?? GhengisFarb: They look to have made around 250 gold off of ND, GoW, and Roleplay for Monotheism so that's around 750 for upgrades from Mono alone. vondrack: ooohhh, that's alot of swimmortals ZargonX: indeed vondrack: did they really land on Bob? GhengisFarb: No, they landed. They didn't do anything after they landed but if provided an alternate story to draw attention from their main objective I suppose. vondrack: I see ZargonX: misdirection. A good tactic when it works ZargonX: are their forces still there, or have they moved back to Estonia? GhengisFarb: No they got back on their boat. ZargonX: Thus avoiding the combined wrath of Bob, eh vondrack: hmmm... so they are after GS only, apparently vondrack: makes sense, they were running out of time GhengisFarb: There were a lot of GoW and ND Horsemen lining up on the hill near them, Roleplay never showed up though, but that seems to be how they honor their defensive pacts....... vondrack: immos are great now, but will become fairly obsolete with knights vondrack: LoL (re: RPers) GhengisFarb: They had a Mut Def treaty with Lux that didn't show up to fulfill, they had this one with us and ND that didn't fulfill, I mean they pay lipservice but considering they have the largest military you think ONE unit would have showed up vondrack: I gather your relations with ND are fine now? less tension it seems... vondrack: we find them a bit difficult to trade with vondrack: we honestly tried to offer ND a good deal vondrack: but they still turned it down vondrack: politely vondrack: but... GhengisFarb: ND has a new leader that looks like he will take some getting used to. vondrack: mav_son? GhengisFarb: Yes vondrack: hmmm... they seem to change leadership quite often, don't they? vondrack: third leader GhengisFarb: yes they do, it does not appear to work well in interhuman team play either vondrack: yes, especially for a team that is "from outside" GhengisFarb: Agreed vondrack: well, sounds like we made fine progress today vondrack: one more thing vondrack: be cautious with your galley vondrack: there is an awful lot of barb galleys in the North vondrack: our galley sunk three of them over two turns GhengisFarb: Oh, I thought you were threatening to sink it. vondrack: your galley? vondrack: never Panzer32: they have mercenary galleys!! GhengisFarb: I was thinking "what did we do?" vondrack: we threatened to kill anything landing out of it vondrack: nope, that was not a threat, really GhengisFarb: There isn't anything to land out of it. vondrack: I know vondrack: I just politely asked whether you'd consider not exploring around our landmass - but I did understand that you were determined to do so vondrack: no hard feelings GhengisFarb: If they sink it we'll build another one. vondrack: yeah... fortunately, the difficulty level makes it mostly just training GhengisFarb: We want to see how close Lego and Roleplay are in the south. vondrack: oh, that I can tell you vondrack: it is like this: our coastal waters, two sea tiles, their coastal waters vondrack: crossable by a galley GhengisFarb: That's pretty close. That's two potential intercontinetal routes between our contienents without needing Seafaring. GhengisFarb: or Astronomy vondrack: Navigation you mean? vondrack: Astronomy allows trade across sea, IIRC vondrack: Navigation across Ocean GhengisFarb: Can't caravels cross ocean squares? vondrack: from the editor: vondrack: Astronomy allows trade over sea tiles vondrack: Navigation allows trade over ocean tiles vondrack: yep - having the editor opened right now vondrack: btw... it is very likely that we will go for Astronomy after Education GhengisFarb: Galleys sink in ocean and sea, and Caravels sink in ocean only. vondrack: yep, that's true GhengisFarb: That would open up everyone to trade routes to you so that makes sense. vondrack: yes, exactly vondrack: ok, then, I guess that's it for today vondrack: we will not strike any deals with GS regarding Feudalism until we hear from you vondrack: even though we expect them to try urging us GhengisFarb: Okay, sounds good vondrack: take your time, discuss the deal within your team vondrack: and let us know GhengisFarb: Will do, I don't see any reason they would have problems with it. vondrack: ok, fine vondrack: take care, then GhengisFarb: take care vondrack: bye vondrack: bye, Panzer! Session Close: Thu Apr 10 23:35:59 2003

So, I believe we did not pose as frightened chicken , yet basically getting GoW's preliminary ok on the deal. I did not push the "what would you consider fair to throw in to balance the deal?" approach too much, as it soon became obvious they'd like to balance the deal with their map, which I wanted to avoid - we will most likely be able to get the Vox map directly from them. In the end, they should agree to waive both Sistine's and Bach's, while we should promise to not go after Leo's only. Them giving up on Bach's may be considered the kind of the balance we were looking for - from the diplomatic point of view, I mean... it is quite obvious that it's pretty much no problem to give up on Bach's for them... but it "looked" like it was, so I believe we can present it that way (I mean: we were ready to make the trade in their favour, we just did not want to make it look like we were scared of them, thus offering a lopsided deal "to keep them off our back").

Everybody, comment, please - I expect to hear from GoW in few turn time.

	11-04-2003 03:47									#57
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, we shouldn't trade Theo early, as that will not help them - Cathedrals only require Mono - and will make it easier for someone else to research Theology. So we should have it all be one big deal.

	11-04-2003 04:46									#58
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Oops...
Kloreep is right.

I have sent the following PM to GF (and briefly discussed its content with Panzer32, who happened to be online again).

quote: Hello, GhengisFarb! After posting the chatlog in our forum, one of my teammates correctly pointed out I had the prerequisite for Cathedrals wrong. All you need is Monotheism. Thus, it makes no sense to provide Theology earlier, as all it would do would be lowering the research cost for anyone else trying to research it on his own. If you don't mind then, I suggest swapping the techs once all of them are actually available. Or even more precisely, swapping Theology for Feudalism one turn before swapping Education for Chivalry (due to the prerequisite relations between the techs). Cheers, Radek aka vondrack P.S.: just briefly consulted this with Panzer32, who happened to be online - seems it should be fine.

Seems that it really is just a minor clarification, causing no problems.

	01-05-2003 20:28									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Zargon, would you approach GoW, please, and ask them about whether the deal we talked about is fine with them and whether they are ready to put it into writing, making it a valid trade agreement?

	03-05-2003 02:43									#60
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Catching Panzer32 online, I asked him about the status of the deal we proposed. He seemed to believe it had already been agreed upon - so I pointed out there was no "official" deal signed and that we would appreciate finalizing it into a written form.

MasterZen is now GoW's FAM (replaced Panzer32).