03-08-2003 03:21									#61
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I would resort to medinfs only if the war goes really wrong. They are too slow and too vulnerable - besides, we already have several of them. Even if it takes a couple more turns, I would really go for knights only.

	03-08-2003 03:24									#62
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I was thinking about MedInfs more for home defense - with the railroads coming soon, the minus 1 defense is their only major downside they would have versus knights (unless roads/railroads were cut).

	03-08-2003 03:31									#63
	Inflate your Upload Space

And one more bit of info from Darekill:

quote: quote: Just a question - looking at the shots more closely, I have noticed that the one with Zaragoza in Spanish hands shows no defenders. Is that right after you killed the very last one? Or did they evacuate the city completely? Just curious... We killed in the last turn four Pikes and Three Med. Infs. The Rest of those spanish guy had their noses stuffed I guess so they ran and left Zaragoza undefendet. Now they gathered what they still had and try to retake Leon I guess...

	03-08-2003 18:32									#64
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

In response to Tibi's shock.... Greenwich is indeed in London and it is the meridian where all time is taken from, however in the UK we move to BST for a while to help farmers and things like that, make best use of the daylight....which is why London is not on GMT

	03-08-2003 18:48									#65
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe I was thinking about MedInfs more for home defense - with the railroads coming soon, the minus 1 defense is their only major downside they would have versus knights (unless roads/railroads were cut).

Ummm, Steve, railroads are not "coming soon"... we are barely halfway through the medieval period. Also, by the time railroads appear, our fast attackers will already be upgraded to cavalry, which is +2 attack and +1 defense over medinf.

Plus, after we enter the industrial era, we'll soon have access to riflemen (upgraded defenders), which are as fine attackers as medinfs are, with a rock-solid defense as an added benefit.

Medinf is an acceptable way not to have to scrap all your swordsmen, but building them from scratch makes sense only if your economy is too weak to produce the more shield-costly knights, or if you are lacking horses.

	04-08-2003 10:02									#66
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

At this point in the game, I rarely build any med. infantry. True, they are cheaper, but for good reason. Poor defense and not mobile.

I think we should stick with knight, catapults, pike, and more knights.

	05-08-2003 01:42									#67
	Remove this text

For the record:
We are now strong vs. ND and strong vs. RP, so a major battle should have taken place at Leon, with lots of casualtes on both sides. Leon is still on ND's hands, so that's good news. RP are probably toast, without iron and horses from now on, and continue pressure fromn ND. It will be GS to fight from now on. Let's see how well GoW can handle the situation and how quickly ND can rebuild its army.

Hopefully our troops will arrive in time. We don't have too much time. GS is still stronger than us.

Oh, and btw: I'm all for knights.

	05-08-2003 10:42									#68
	Got spare money?

If ND can secure the area west of the Leon - Santiago line we could send with the first or second galley a couple of workers to help improve the area (Santiago, Fort Dreizack, etc).

	06-08-2003 15:56									#69
	Full PM-box? Change here!

A message from NeMeSiS:

quote: Dear Vondrack, As the ND Embassador in Legoland, its a great honor for me to tell you that your offer to land troops on Borconia has been unanimous accepted by the parliament of ND. NeMeSiS, ND Embassador in Legoland

My response:

quote: Dear NeMeSiS, It will be an honour for us to fight alongside your brave soldiers. We hope you have not suffered crippling casualties at Leon on the last but one turn (we noticed that your military rating went from average to weak vs. ours - and we did very little on our side to help it... just upgraded one horse, I think. Our first expeditionary troops (1 elite knight + 2 vets) should - if everything goes according to the current plan - sail off in 5 turns from Zargonia. Then ~5-7 turns to land, depending on where the troops will be heading. The other group (3 vet knights) will land in the North, near Trafalgar, ~5 turns later (~15 turns from now). That's the fastest we can make it. Good luck until then. vondrack FAM of Legoland

	13-08-2003 12:30									#70
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Darekill PMed with the following message:

quote: Hello, Darekill! Just to briefly let you know that we shall be posting a public announcement about our support of the new Voxian settlements on Legos Minor. It is something that has been planned for and promised to Vox a long time ago and basically says nothing else but that they are under our protection (which, ATM, means very little, as nobody is threatening them) and that anybody messing with them will have to mess with us, too. Who knows, if we are lucky, we may confuse the GS strategists a little bit regarding Lego current 'urgent' business and short-term goals. You can safely ignore the announcement, it is not meant to threaten ND in any way, as we very well know your eyes are focused elsewhere... Best regards, vondrack

	12-01-2004 16:23									#71
	Increase Your PM Length

This was the chat last Thursday - I am posting it here rather than in the Operation Glorious Plastic thread, since only Darekill & Zayxus showed up, making it a Lego-ND chat only.

quote: Session Start: Thu Jan 08 21:29:14 2004 Session Ident: #gow * Now talking in #gow * Topic is 'GoW Chat: Who are we going to backstab today? ' * Set by MasterZen on Sun Jan 04 08:21:19 vondrack: hello! Zayxus: hi vondrack! vondrack: cool! here you are... vondrack: is there a chat tonight? Zayxus: me and Darekill up to now vondrack: I have got out of the habit... haven't had an alliance chat since early Xmas... vondrack: ah - so nobody from GoW? Darekill: i don't know but since you are here I'd say....yes?! vondrack: lol vondrack: good point vondrack: how's the situation on Bob? vondrack: we can see no more GS/RP cities there vondrack: have they gone for good? Darekill: Yes. Zayxus: ah, this is correct. Darekill: We started gifting citys vondrack: Wow. Means the war is actually won. Zayxus: GS destroyed the 2 cities at the east Zayxus: Right, war is won. vondrack: Congrats to you, guys - it was an impressive campaign! Zayxus: thank you Darekill: Well we are kind of proud but.... vondrack: but? Darekill: it did cost a lot. Zayxus: did cost development vondrack: oh, I can imagine that (waging war in an individual PBEM of mine) Darekill: we have almost no libraries only a few marketplaces and a weak infrastructure Zayxus: a lot of jungle Darekill: but a hell of a lot of jungle to clear. vondrack: well, as for jungle... we could talk about that - we have enough, too vondrack: but we are quite likely doing better infrastructure-wise Darekill: at least we have some luxury and some very angry spanish citizens vondrack: lol vondrack: yes vondrack: since Aggie is not here, I guess I will have to work the details of our withdrawal from Bob via PMs with him vondrack: I assume the time is getting close that we will no longer be needed there Zayxus: seems so vondrack: we would prefer withdrawing through your territory, since we have a *cough* WORKING RoP with you vondrack: unlike with GoW... vondrack: the infamous "one-way RoP" bug Darekill: :g: Zayxus: but Lego troops could stay on neutral territory at the east? vondrack: well, they could... but what good would they be there? vondrack: do you see any benefit in keeping them there? Zayxus: scouts vondrack: ah, scouts... Darekill: I can't see it. Darekill: You can stay if you want but you are free to leave too. Zayxus: just some to show presence vondrack: however ridiculous this may sound after our involvement in the recent war, we are not really interventionists... vondrack: so once we are no longer needed, we will slowly head for home vondrack: I will consult this with Aggie (or MZ, who seems to have replaced him recently), too vondrack: btw... have you aligned yourself with someone research-wise? I mean... any tech deals pre-arranged? Zayxus: all right, use of ND territory is granted vondrack: glad to hear that, thanks a lot Darekill: we are talking to gow. Darekill: and you of course. vondrack: well... afaik, you are doing PP now, right? Zayxus: yes vondrack: that tech we are getting from Vox... how long before you finish your research? Zayxus: 10 turns left Zayxus: slowly... vondrack: I can imagine that... would not make sense to do it faster than in 40 turns vondrack: but you will have loads of luxuries vondrack: I hope we will be able to do some fine trading - techs or gold for lux Zayxus: on the territory there are various luxuries vondrack: is there any tech you would be particularly interested in right now? Zayxus: hmmmm. banking for more money? Darekill: banking would be fine. vondrack: I have to admit I have almost no mandate from my team regarding tech deals today - but that's because we have very little idea what could be on the negotiating table vondrack: so banking it would be, right? Zayxus: for me , yes Darekill: to be honest ND is almost completely in this chatroom so yes. vondrack: lol - the two of you are running ND now? Darekill: z is I'm only suporting him... vondrack: the game is getting a bit... old, I would say vondrack: it's been over a year now Darekill: right. vondrack: only the most persistent individuals still hold the flag... Darekill: I think no team has much more then four or five active players anymore. vondrack: true Zayxus: could there be peace for the next 100 turns? Darekill: with whom? vondrack: ooooohhh, that would be awesome Zayxus: with all vondrack: with everybody Darekill: from my point of view yes. Zayxus: would make playing turns pretty easy... Darekill: we need 100 turns to build up a empire. vondrack: anyway... back to that banking deal... what would you expect the price to be (to make it affordable for you)? Zayxus: what is the way to calculate it? vondrack: perhaps, if you are as unprepared for this as I am... you might think this over and PM me or we can talk next week vondrack: forget calculations Zayxus: I assume, it could be the sum of about 1500 Gold in the sum Darekill: we almost owe you a lot of lux... vondrack: yeah, some luxes, right... Zayxus: that is better Darekill: no problems wirth luxury. We may be able to add some money too. vondrack: see, we are not really expecting to get anything based upon the "beaker cost"... vondrack: that might have been the case earlier in the game Darekill: we are building marketplaces and we'll soon have a fp... vondrack: glad to hear that, a stable Bob is what we have always been looking foward to vondrack: ok, let's do it like this... I tell my mates (yes, there still are some that you'd be considering a deal on Banking vondrack: I understand that you have luxuries and might put together some cash vondrack: I will see what we could do about that Darekill: fine. vondrack: from a discussion two or three weeks ago, I'd say that we are neither eager to sell our tech(s) off, nor keen on keeping them to ourselves vondrack: and more than the price... the, say, "strategic value" will be of a key importance Zayxus: of cause vondrack: Banking itself might be available for purchase - it would be the matter of your future research routes (and possible tech deals) affecting our willingness to strike a deal with you vondrack: either way, we would be happy to start dealing with you directly - not through GoW, as it used to be in the past Zayxus: please Darekill: I'd like to go now. vondrack: they are a good broker, but still... we'd appreciate maintaining the contacts vondrack: me too vondrack: take care, both of you Zayxus: thank you vondrack: and - see you next week, perhaps? Darekill: good we'll keep the contact. Zayxus: of course Darekill: fine with me. vondrack: ok, see you then Zayxus: bye Darekill: bye vondrack: bye Session Close: Thu Jan 08 21:58:58 2004

Note that Darekill & Zayxus agreed to let LEF withdraw through their territory and showed quite some interest in trading for Banking.

	12-01-2004 16:50									#72
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

As mentioned in the turnplan thread, I am thinking of trading Banking to ND. They are the "safest" buyer from our perspective, since their current research project (PP) is still ~10 turns from completion. Even if they start researching Economics immediately afterwards, they have no way to complete the research faster than us. Actually, they are quite unlikely to be able to discover Economics before we finish Adam Smith's in Legopolis (that's important for the unlikely case that ND had a GL, "saving" him for AS - but if you read between the lines in the chat, I suspect they are going to use the GL they assumingly got during the assault at Pamplona to build their FP).

So, I would be thinking about an initial offer of 250g plus 20t of a future luxury supply (after their current luxury obligations are fulfilled) for Banking. Considering the tech costs ~1250 beakers, that would be 20% of the nominal research cost in gold plus the future luxury supply. In case they do not take it right away, I would go as low as 150g + the luxury, considering the luxury part the only part that really matters. We can live w/o the gold, generating enough of it ourselves, but luxuries are our everlasting problem.

Another idea (perhaps even better than asking a lump sum) would be to go for a gpt deal - say, 13gpt negotiable down to some 8gpt. Not a big difference from our point of view, but we would make sure they do not research fast enough to be any competition for us, while improving our own research potential a bit at the same time.

What do you think? I would like to hear from you so that I could PM Darekill & Zayxus with a firm proposal sometime late Wednesday - they'd have time enough to mull it over, hopefully allowing to close the deal on Thursday evening, where we are supposed to chat again.

	16-01-2004 02:29									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Here goes my chat with Zayxus today:

quote: Session Start: Thu Jan 15 21:13:56 2004 Session Ident: Zayxus Session Ident: Zayxus (Zayxus@dialin-145-254-114-233.arcor-ip.net) Zayxus: Darekill seems to be busy vondrack: I see vondrack: I have time, though - so we can give him a bit more time Zayxus: Darekill disappeared from the forum. vondrack: ah, so shall I go ahead with the offer on Banking? Zayxus: yes, sure vondrack: would you be interested in buying Banking for 250 gold + 20 turns of a luxury (delivered some time in the future)? Zayxus: for me : yes vondrack: cool then... if you need to consult with the rest of your team, do so - I will send you a formal offer after the chat ends today Zayxus: right, ND could offer for luxury: gems and after connecting : ivory, which would you prefer? vondrack: gems would work Zayxus: Just checked the save: Legoland already gets luxury from ND. Zayxus: noted: gems. vondrack: yes, we are getting spices & silks vondrack: and delivering dyes Zayxus: would be nice if you sent the formal offer to Darekill and me. vondrack: will do vondrack: I believe it would also be good to state that starting with 470AD, the "free sharing" of luxes ends Zayxus: What means "free sharing"? Zayxus: What would be new? vondrack: well, the allied teams (ND, GoW, Lego) were sharing their luxes vondrack: with no payments vondrack: now, with the war over and alliance actually being put to an end vondrack: we should establish "normal" lux trades vondrack: say: starting from 470AD, we'd be getting one kind of lux (e.g. silks) for our dyes vondrack: the second lux we'd be getting from you would be a repayment of the gold we gave you during the war vondrack: IIRC, we are supposed to get twice 20 turns of a luxury for the gold we sent you Zayxus: Ah, this you offer as deal about luxury, it is changed in the meaning. vondrack: oh, sorry if I worded it in a confusing way Zayxus: It is clear. Zayxus: spices for dyes, gems for tech, 2*20 turns silk for the Gold vondrack: I'd say this would be fine with us, yes Zayxus: Darekill was really busy this evening, I got a PM of time 21:20 . vondrack: no problem vondrack: I will PM you with the proposal and you can then discuss it Zayxus: yes , please, thank you, I sent Darekill a PM about it. Zayxus: We discussed all we needed? vondrack: yes, I believe so vondrack: I will PM you and Darekill with a summary vondrack: trade proposal and the precise route of our troops through your territory Zayxus: Thank you. Zayxus: that sounds good vondrack: good vondrack: take care, then - and my best regards to Darekill Zayxus: take care, too. vondrack: bye Zayxus: bye Session Close: Thu Jan 15 22:12:23 2004

	16-01-2004 02:40									#74
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

So, considering that Zayxus sounded quite ok with the proposal and nobody objected the idea in this thread, I am PMing him and Darekill with the following proposal:

quote: Legoland-ND Banking trade agreement 1) Legoland agrees to provide ND with Banking. ND agrees to not resell/trade/gift this tech to any other party for 20 turns from receiving it. 2) ND agrees to provide Legoland with 250 gold* and a 20-turn supply of gems in return. if you prefer, we can make it a gpt trade, too. 13gpt for 20 turns would work, too - or 10 gold lump sum and 12gpt for 20 turns... or whatever else might suit your needs best 3) The trade shall happen right after the approval of this trade agreement by both parties. The party being the first to play the save shall offer its part of the deal as 'unaccepted'. The other party shall then counter with its part and send the trade back as 'accepted'. Finally, the first party shall accept to complete the deal.

	16-01-2004 02:58									#75
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sounds like a fair deal to me. Hopefully it will pass on their end.

	16-01-2004 03:09									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Also, to put things in order, we shall ratify the following luxury-related deal:

quote: Legoland-ND post-war luxury deal arrangement 1. Legoland and Neu Demogyptica agree to a mutual luxury deal. Legoland will provide dyes, getting ND's spices in return. 2. This deal is considered indefinite, and is not bound to the 20-turn limits PtW defines (both teams automatically renew it every time a 20-turn period ends). 3. Both teams are free to cancel the deal at any turn, for whatever reason (which they are free to state or keep to themselves). However, should this deal get cancelled, the cancelling team must warn the other team one turn ahead, so they can prepare for the loss of happiness in their cities, avoiding any of these to fall into disorder. 4. In recognition of the 302 gold pieces Legoland provided to Neu Demogyptica in 350AD and 360AD as part of the alliance war funding, Neu Demogryptica agrees to provide a 40-turn supply of silks to Legoland, starting from 470AD.

	16-01-2004 13:15									#77
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Proposals PMed to Zayxus & Darekill.

	16-01-2004 19:22									#78
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Darekill's brief re:

quote: Hi, Vondrack nice to read you again I've just postet a poll concerning you tradeproposals in our forum. In three days we will have the results though I doubt that they will be rejectet. I'm curios how many votes there will be but I'm pretty sure it'll be less than 20.... Greetings Darekill

	16-01-2004 22:24									#79
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This is a very fine trade (proposal)

	20-01-2004 02:35									#80
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

We've got our first deal signed:

quote: Hello Vondrak, I'm pleased to tell you, that both deals are acceptet. There was a overwhelming majority for the trades. Greetings from ND Darekill PS. We had seven votes, all seven voted with yes. that means ND has at least seven semiactive Members! Wow...

I am going to briefly respond, saying we are happy to have the deal sealed.

	05-02-2004 01:39									#81
	Full PM-box? Change here!

ND PMed with the following trade proposal:

quote: Hi, Zayxus! Checking the tech situation last turn, I noticed ND was the last team lacking Astronomy. Would you be interested in trading for it? Not sure how much you'd value it... I realize you will be able to get it for free from GoW once our 20-turn NDA with them runs out, but you might prefer getting it sooner - to be able to choose from "better" techs once you finish PP... So - what about, say, trading you Astronomy for in exchange for 20 turns of ivory? Just an idea I had - but other Legos sounded very agreeable when I posted about it in our forum, so I am giving it a try... Best regards, vondrack P.S.: PM cc'ed to Darekill, too.

	14-02-2004 18:04									#82
	Got spare money?

A message from Zayxus. The guy is really cool, but his English is a bit cryptic at times... but the point is: ND seems to be interested in trading for Physics, though still reserving the right to consider and discuss other options.

quote: Hello Vondrack! The Minister for Financy of Neu Demogyptica can offer to the Science Ministery of Legoland 90 Gold for 6 turns to pay for technology of physics. ND will save the Gold until the Physics of Legoland is finished in 3 turns; ND could offer than 270 Gold and pay 90 Gold for 3 more turns. ND aks Legoland to decide, when to give Physics, considering about other offers of physics. ND pronounces, still to be discussing offers, until your handing over of physics. The decision of this deal will be a concern of global politics. About the sum of cost of physics can be discussed. Greetings Zayxus Acting as Diplomat for Neu Demogyptica

Personally, I suggest we move very fast and counter with the following proposal: Lego sends Physics as accepted immediately after discovering it (which would be on our Turn 179, 630AD, so ND would get it on their turn 180, 640AD). ND will then, on their turn, send back 300g as accepted. That would be it.

I strongly suggest we lower the sum they offer significantly - first, to show our good will and readiness to truly help & cooperate (deeds, not words), second, to make it as likely as possible that it would be us striking the deal, not GS or GoW (better to get small money than no meny at all) - which will still be a possibility, as ND makes it clear they will keep talking about the tech with others. And third, to make it more likely that next time ND needs a tech, they start with us, not others.

I would couple this offer with an offer to trade them our next tech, whichever it's going to be (M.T., Magnetism, or T.o.G.), making it only 500g on condition they buy Physics from us.

Be so kind and comment ASAP, as I would like to answer Zayxus' PM tomorrow at latest.

	14-02-2004 18:31									#83
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I agree as long as they agree to a trade for the next tech. We still don't know if they are prepared to enter into an 'alliance' and in fact no decision has yet been taken on our part. They are offering a reasonable deal but I certainly see no harm in a little goodwill.

	14-02-2004 18:35									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by redstar1 I agree as long as they agree to a trade for the next tech. We still don't know if they are prepared to enter into an 'alliance' and in fact no decision has yet been taken on our part. They are offering a reasonable deal but I certainly see no harm in a little goodwill.

Aha, so - shall we counter offering a bundle of Physics and our next tech for 300g+500g? There is a wee little problem, as we do not know what our next tech will be... if we are able to get Military Tradition from GoW, then we go for Magnetism or Theory of Gravity. If not, we will have to go for Military Tradition ourselves. So, all three are still possible.

	14-02-2004 18:38									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Or, perhaps... offering Physics for 400g if purchased alone, or for an all time low price of 300g if purchased in a bundle with another technology from us (MT, Mag, ToG)? Thinking about it... I believe we could let them choose the tech they'd like to get after Physics. Even if we have to go for Military Tradition ourselves first, it will still be only 8 turns before we deliver whatever they'd want.

	14-02-2004 18:46									#86
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yeah... sorry for all my spamming, but it would be like this then:

...Lego presents ND with two offers:

1) ND can buy Physics from Lego for 400 gold in cash, payable upon the delivery of Physics, which would happen on Turn 180 (in 640AD).

2) ND can buy Physics + one other technology of its choice (Magnetism or Theory of Gravity) for 300 + 500 gold in cash, payable upon delivery. Physics would be delivered on Turn 180 (640AD), the other tech would be delivered no later than on Turn 188 (720AD).

Would that be ok?

	14-02-2004 19:28									#87
	Got spare money?

Isn't 300 a bit cheap? I mean, they are offering 540 ...

Nevertheless, I like the second option.

	14-02-2004 20:05									#88
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I would go with option 2 to begin with, see if they like the idea. We really need to get on GoW to see if they will trade MT with us...

	15-02-2004 04:30									#89
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I agree with Tiberius, 300 seems cheap... I suggest we go with 400 if they do a bundle, 500 if not. We still settle for under their offer either way, signifigantly so with the bundle deal. Physics is an expensive tech, let's not give it away too lightly...

I don't think we should let ND determine our next tech though... we need to get GoW to either sign a deal, or see us research MT ourselves. If the latter, we can offer MT to ND; if the former, we offer either ToG or Mag in a bundle deal.

	15-02-2004 05:11									#90
	Inflate your Upload Space

400g sounds good for the bundle deal. That's still 140g less than they offered, and an extra 100g in the bank never hurts for emergency rushes or upgrades...