15-02-2004 12:53									#91
	Suffering from ads?

OK, let's up the bundle offer to 400+500 and more or less accept their offer (500) if they take just Physics now, with no future obligations.

Kloreep - ND would not determine our next tech in the sense of forcing us to go for Magnetism or ToG - that's why I expressly put the turn numbers in. We shall be doing a new tech every 4 turns in our GA, so even if we had to do MT ourselves, we would still be able to deliver the next non-MT tech in time according to the proposal presented. The only constraint coming out of this trade would be we would not be completely free to start with a tech of our choice, had we to research MT (we would have to go MT, ND's choice, the remaining one). But in case we get MT from GoW, we are fine and ND's choice will not affect us in any way (as we will do BOTH Magnetism and ToG in the set time frame anyway).

	15-02-2004 14:16									#92
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Let's make our proposal modelled after theirs. IMO it is harder to "swallow" a totally different trade, even if it is a better one. I think they will bite more easily if our offer will look like:

1. 80 Gold for 6 turns for Physics or

2. 70 gold for 6 turns for Physics and 500 gold in cash, payable upon delivery for one other technology of choice (Magnetism or Theory of Gravity).

This way our offer will be 480 or 420+500. I would even settle on 60x6 (360) + 500 for the second proposal, to make it look even more attractive. 40 gold (the difference from 360 to the discussed 400) is not such a big deal.

Last edited by Tiberius on 15-02-2004 at 14:25

	15-02-2004 14:23									#93
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Sounds fine to me. Good point about following the model they proposed. I would also support 6x60+500 - I really believe we should make them excited about the deal.

	17-02-2004 18:23									#94
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I PMed Zayxus with the following message:

quote: Hello, Zayxus! Sorry for the delay, there was a bunch of new ideas presented in our private forum, some of them going way beyond this deal - I am really looking forward to talking to you on Thursday, as there is a lot to discuss. This is what we have eventually decided to offer you regarding Physics: Option A - Physics only: Legoland delivers Physics on ND's Turn 180 (640AD) and ND then pays 480g in six 80g installments (ND's Turns 180-185, 640AD to 690AD). Yes, this is a bit less than what you offered to us. But you said the price was negotiable... Option B - Physics+1: Legoland delivers Physics on ND's turn 180 and ND then pays 390g in six 65g installments (ND's Turns 180-185, 640AD to 690AD). Legoland will then, no later than on ND's Turn 188 (720AD), deliver one more tech of ND's choice, either Theory of Gravity or Magnetism, in exchange for 500g in cash. No resale rights included in either option. We would need you to name the tech of your choice reasonably soon (before we deliver you Physics and start our next research project). How does the other option sound? You would get Physics for mere 390g and one other tech for 500g? Hope this demonstrates our will to truly cooperate. Our best regards to your team, vondrack quote: Hello Vondrack! The Minister for Financy of Neu Demogyptica can offer to the Science Ministery of Legoland 90 Gold for 6 turns to pay for technology of physics. ND will save the Gold until the Physics of Legoland is finished in 3 turns; ND could offer than 270 Gold and pay 90 Gold for 3 more turns. ND aks Legoland to decide, when to give Physics, considering about other offers of physics. ND pronounces, still to be discussing offers, until your handing over of physics. The decision of this deal will be a concern of global politics. About the sum of cost of physics can be discussed. Greetings Zayxus Acting as Diplomat for Neu Demogyptica

	17-02-2004 23:00									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

You know, I've calculated how much ND would have been willing to pay for Magnetism or ToG, based on how much they offered for Physics.

So:
The value of Physics = 1536
Magnetism / Theory of Gravity = 1632

540 (their offer) / 1536 = 0,3515

0,3515 * 1632 = 573,65

So, based on their Physics proposal, ND should be willing to pay at least 550 gold for Magnetism. Theoretically they will take our second offer with both hands (hmm, is there such an expression in english? It is similar to "jump in with both feet" No? Oh well, you got it). Theoretically ...

Last edited by Tiberius on 17-02-2004 at 23:07

	20-02-2004 11:30									#96
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You know, I just realized this, and I apologize if the rest of you already knew it: ND controls all of the SP on Bob. Talk about the valuable ally to have if GoW turns on us; without ND's support, a GoW/GS alliance couldn't build Cavs. I think this just makes it even more vital we keep them in our good graces.

	20-02-2004 15:53									#97
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

More good news, this time from ND:

quote: Session Start: Thu Feb 19 21:51:14 2004 Session Ident: #dealchat * Now talking in #dealchat vondrack: hello! Zayxus: hello! vondrack: finally here, sorry for the delay vondrack: so, what about our deal? Zayxus: another member voted for Option B - like me, if there was no protest, it is accepted. vondrack: lol vondrack: two members is what decides votes? vondrack: down to that few active members? vondrack: there is no hurry, actually - we have at least one more turn vondrack: so if you need more time, just take it Zayxus: oh, there were other topics, for which much more did vote, as said, if there is no protest to my vote , and I see the 'hits' of the thread, it is accepted. vondrack: I see vondrack: which would be the "other" tech of your choice? Zayxus: moment... there arrived 2 more votes: now 3 votes for... magnetism vondrack: ok... once you are sure about that, just name it - we do not care that much which one it is, just that we would appreciate knowing it in advance, so that we can adjust our research path Zayxus: I do not know, why they voted for magnetism, but I think, it will not change much; if it does, ND will tell you. Zayxus: It is difficult to count the turns, please could you remember me, when 'Physics' is finished? vondrack: 2 turns from now vondrack: you would get it on your Turn 180, IIRC Zayxus: how do you count the turns in numbers instead of in years? is there a table of turn-year? vondrack: yes, there is... Turn 180 is 640AD vondrack: Zayxus, shall I send you a draft of the trade agreement? along the lines of ther Option B, incorporating Magnetism as the "other" tech? Zayxus: yes, please, I would place this draft into our forum, if you draft the deal. vondrack: ok, will do after the chat vondrack: now... as I mentioned in my PM vondrack: there was a whole bunch of ideas thrown around in our forum Zayxus: which ideas? vondrack: basically, it all boils down to that we do not want to see you overrun by GoW or GS vondrack: I am not saying they would attack you vondrack: but IF they did, we would certainly be very unhappy about that Zayxus: what did Legoland consider? vondrack: we were discussing all kinds of help, one-way and mutual vondrack: most of that would be progressive, as you relocate your core vondrack: aside from fine tech deals vondrack: we would consider trading or otherwise providing workers to help you out with terrain improvements vondrack: we have dicussed the possibility of signing a Mutual Protection Pact with you, too vondrack: so that we‘d come to help you if you are attacked vondrack: and vice versa Zayxus: that is very interesting. vondrack: if you can mention this idea in your private forum Zayxus: In case of a mutual protection pact: ND has to build a navy. vondrack: frankly, I would not be sure of this vondrack: we do have navy large enough vondrack: and IF we get attacked on Legos vondrack: we will not need help _here_ THAT much Zayxus: what kind of protection by ND would Legoland like without a navy of ND? vondrack: but rather someone bugging the attacker on his own territory vondrack: since... if ND was our ally, it would have to be GoW or GS attacking us vondrack: and then, the best aid you could provide us with against, say, GoW would be - attacking them on Bob vondrack: I would like to make it very clear that I am talking ONLY defensive help here vondrack: no help at all in case Lego or ND is actually the agressor Zayxus: That is clear. is there such a "only defensive pact" in Single player? Suppose not. But in Multiplayer we can conclude such a pact. vondrack: I think it's very close to what an MPP is in SP vondrack: you get your ally's help only if you are the attacked party vondrack: if you think this may be an idea worth discussing, I suggest that you discuss it with your teammates and maybe put together your idea of what kind of help from Lego ND would want in case ND is attacked Zayxus: yes, I will put these proposals into the forum of ND. vondrack: also... regarding our cooperation and help in peace times vondrack: I could think of various ways how to cooperate. But it's sort of difficult to "push" any ideas to you when we do not really know what kind of help you really need. vondrack: so - if there is anything you might need, tell us vondrack: I am not saying we will always agree vondrack: but we will always seriously consider your needs vondrack: and do the best we will be able to Zayxus: Thank you, I just consider, what ND would need in peace time. vondrack: I am not going to pretend anything here... vondrack: we do realize that one thing that could make this game rather dangerous vondrack: would be yet another world war vondrack: we would rather prevent that from happening vondrack: and we believe that by helping you grow stronger vondrack: we would, in fact, help ourselves, too vondrack: because the balance of power is what helps us big time Zayxus: At Forum of ND the balance of Power was discussed. vondrack: btw... not sure if you can answer this question: have you arranged a deal for Military Tradition? Zayxus: yes, ND has an offer. vondrack: I am glad to hear that Zayxus: That tech is important. It is important to be equal about a possibility of an attack with 6 point unit. vondrack: should you need more gold to buy Military Tradition, we would be willing to help you out by postponing payments for the techs you are buying form us vondrack: we also consider MT quite an important tech vondrack: especially for you, as your territory is easier to reach than ours Zayxus: It is more a matter of getting it than paying for it. vondrack: ah... so it's not yet signed? Zayxus: it is "signed" by word. vondrack: I see Zayxus: As defensive Civ, ND would even more need a better defensive unit. vondrack: I think riflemen are not that far away vondrack: I suspect we will see teams entering the industrial era within 10 turns Zayxus: yes, that I thought of vondrack: alright then... I will PM you with the final tech trade draft (gold+gold for Physics+Magnetism) Zayxus: Rifleman would be the more save point of time, after having paid the upgrades, that would be expensive, I suppose. vondrack: musket-to-rifle upgrade costs 40g vondrack: so it's not cheap vondrack: but not extremely expensive either Zayxus: If you checked it: the main town of ND is in range of Riders for a attack in a single turn, as surprising attack, Ansars would not help that much, ND needs more defensive units there. ND is not keen on changing the place of the palace. vondrack: you mean... your Palace should stay in Neutheben? Zayxus: yes, simply, because in case of NT is captured by someone, the palace would jump to anywhere, right? vondrack: not anywhere, but somewhere... you can actually predict where, but it's not a simple task vondrack: but losing one's palace to a surprise attack is ugly, that's for sure Zayxus: That story is for tactics. vondrack: one thing I should mention, too: vondrack: it was a rather runiversal sentiment throughout our team vondrack: that our help would be gradually bigger and bigger as you'd hand over your former core to GoW vondrack: (which is what we expect to happen, sooner or later) Zayxus: thank you, ND just hopes that peace would last long, and ND would give the cities to GOW in peace. For my opinion the improvements by GoW could be more quickly by more workers. vondrack: hmmm... would you be interested in a couple of our workers sailing over and helping you do some terrain improvements? I mean, we do not have all that many to send, after joining a good number of them to our cities right before triggering our GA, but we could send a few anyway Zayxus: But there was no offer of workers as citizens to let the cities growing more quickly, thus the workers of GoW are just enough in what they improve of land. vondrack: ah... so you'd need some workers to be added to your new cities? Zayxus: Of course ND would like to improve land more quickly by having set mines into the mountains. vondrack: yeah, I can imagine that... if you can put something in writing (like how many of workers you might need and where), I would be happy to bring that to my team Zayxus: If Legoland likes to: they could improve and also set workers as citizen into a city. Zayxus: I would have to check that. vondrack: there are two ways to do this... we could simply sell some workers to you (this has a downside of them becoming slaves, working very slowly) vondrack: or we could actually keep the workers, just doing improvements you'd need Zayxus: Some cities like Anagramaskus have to be changed in improvement to get more food for this town and use the mountians Zayxus: There ND now has only one worker left. Zayxus: At the 2 cities many citizens could be added, because they have harbours, that would improve the income in gold there. Zayxus: at the coast vondrack: I see, we could discuss that as well vondrack: give it a thought and let us know vondrack: alright, I am feeling very sleepy vondrack: I guess I should better go to bed Zayxus: all right. Zayxus: weekend is near. Zayxus: all right...., how are your sailors at your coasts? vondrack: sailors? you mean our caravels? Zayxus: yes vondrack: the have reached their final destinations this turn vondrack: they will not move from now on vondrack: except the southernmost one, I think Zayxus: all right, enjoy your sleep? vondrack: yeah, thank you - if you are available during the weekend and need to discuss anything, try PMing me Zayxus: could be. vondrack: I am very often sitting at my comp, doing something vondrack: and it takes just minutes to get to a chatroom Zayxus: all right. vondrack: cool vondrack: take care, then vondrack: and talk to you next week (at latest) vondrack: bye Zayxus: bye Session Close: Thu Feb 19 23:45:04 2004

Just a couple of comments:

1) Zayxus did not sound overly happy about how GoW cooperated at the moment (though they did get an offer to buy Military Tradition from GoW, it seemed).
2) OTOH, ND chose Magnetism, while GoW chose ToG - even if not a problem (we get MT through a trade), still the "worst" case for us (as we need to do both of these before having a shot at anything else - so if GoW fails to abide by the terms of the trade agreement, we would still be bound by the one signed with ND; a minor risk, but still a risk)
3) ND does not plan a palace jump, it seems, their palace is to stay in Neutheben
4) except the trade agreement draft (signing which I felt was in our best interest), I intentionally made it so that ND would have the ball now. It's up to them to say what kind of help they'd need and how close they'd like to get to us.

	20-02-2004 16:17									#98
	Got spare money?

Trade agreement draft PMed to Zayxus:

quote: Hello, Zayxus! Following our yesterday evening chat, here goes our official trade proposal: quote: Legoland-ND Physics & Magnetism trade agreement 1) Legoland agrees to provide ND with Physics (in 640AD, Turn 180) and Magnetism (in 720AD, Turn 188). ND agrees to not resell/trade/gift any of these techs to any other party for 20 turns from receiving them. 2) In exchange for Physics & Magnetism, ND agrees to pay Legoland 890g in several installments as outlined in the third paragraph of this trade agreement. 3) The trades shall happen as follows: in 630AD (Turn 179) Legoland shall send Physics as 'accepted' to ND. ND shall then pay 390g to Legoland in six 65g installments paid in the period from 640AD (Turn 180) to 690AD (Turn 185). In 710AD (Turn 187), Legoland shall send Magentism as 'accepted' to ND. ND shall then, on its following turn, pay 500g to Legoland. We haven't discussed the 500g payment schedule - if paying everything at once would be a problem for you, feel free to propose a different schedule, possibly spreading the payment across several turns, as with Physics. Best regards, vondrack

	21-02-2004 23:39									#99
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A PM from Zayxus:

quote: Hello vondrack, there are some news 1) Luxury: By random I found you could offer us dyes, and ND needs it. ND is still exporting spices for Legoland. If you want to deal spices for dyes from you, please offer it. By my notes there was a deal of spices for dyes between us. 2) Technology: The deal about Physics and Magnetism is going to be accepted in the Forum of ND. 3) City improvements: There is just a little need around Bonigo at the west coast. ND soon needs his own workers for the new cities at the east coast. And the two cities with harbors at the west coast could welcome a lot of citizens. Greetings Zayxus

It was my fault with the dyes, I forgot to send them last turn after the ingame "gift" deal expired. I have already PMed Zayxus back, apologizing.

The deal is apparently a go, so we can add ~900g to our revenues over the next 10t.

As for the last point... I believe it would be a gesture of good will (yes, yet another one) to - in no extra hurry, mind you - assemble a modest workgroup of three workers and sail them over to help ND around Bonigo. We can do without three workers (we are running out of "urgent" or "meaningful" jobs anyway) and ND will see we are serious about the help and cooperation. But prior to agreeing to anything, I would like to hear your opinions.

	22-02-2004 01:02									#100
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How many workers do we have right now? I've lost track.

However, I'd prefer to wait on worker aid till we have our military RRs in place.

	22-02-2004 01:57									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep How many workers do we have right now? I've lost track.

33

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep However, I'd prefer to wait on worker aid till we have our military RRs in place.

See the post I have added to the RR thread a minute ago - the 3 workers would make almost no difference (180wt/30w=6t, 180wt/33w=5.5t).

	22-02-2004 02:06									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well, checking our current trades this turn, I have found out we've got only 6 more turns of gem supplies left. Plus, there is quite a few turns of silk supplies not covered by any deal with ND (as the ingame deal will last much longer than our outgame deal - by 15 turns, I believe).

I suggest we move and offer ND Theory of Gravity for 20t of gems and the remaining 15 turns of silk supplies, securing gems & silks for the near future. If they are not outright happy, we throw in three workers extra to work on improvements around Bonigo.

Come to think of it, I'd probably add those workers to the deal right away.

What sayeth you?

Last edited by vondrack on 23-02-2004 at 03:54

	28-02-2004 02:57									#103
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This chat with Zayxus was more important than the one with Master Zen. I would like everybody to read it. The crux should be summed up by a PM from Zayxus (to be posted in the next post):

quote: Session Start: Thu Feb 26 22:02:29 2004 Session Ident: Zayxus vondrack: Hi, Zayxus! vondrack: anything to worry about? vondrack: what's the reason for sitting on the save? Zayxus: the save is ready to be send, you know, Master Zen gets it after this chat anyway vondrack: ok vondrack: what was it that delayed your turn, if I may know? * Zayxus had a lot to do in real life vondrack: ah, ok, I see vondrack: btw... you have stronger military than GoW or GS vondrack: you were the last to remain "average" vs. us vondrack: it was only last turn we went strong vs. ND vondrack: have you arranged any deals for Theory of Gravity? vondrack: we'd be able to trade that to you quite soon Zayxus: Does Legoland need more Gold to research more quickly? vondrack: well, we are researching quite quickly vondrack: ToG would be available pretty soon vondrack: we'd be interested in prolonging some of our luxury deals Zayxus: ToG before or after magnetism? vondrack: possibly even before vondrack: but magnetism will be delivered in time vondrack: no worries about that Zayxus: all right. Zayxus: luxury? vondrack: gems and silks vondrack: 20t of gems vondrack: 15t of silks vondrack: (that's what's not covered by previous deals) Zayxus: I try to remember about the deals... vondrack: as that's quite a lot of luxuries, we might throw in something extra to make it more appealing to you Zayxus: gems was for science Zayxus: your offer? vondrack: last time, you said ND could use some workers to develop the terrain around Bonigo Zayxus: yes * Zayxus was thinking a lot how to build more workers... vondrack: we might do, say, three workers for 20turns part of such a deal Zayxus: hmm, this is an idea. vondrack: try to formulate a precise agreement vondrack: something along the lines of ToG + 3 Lego workers for 20 turns in exchange for 20t of gems and 15t of silks Zayxus: it is difficult to calculate it, what is luxury worth for workers actions. vondrack: yes, it is... you can't really calculate it Zayxus: It is agreed in the sense of a gesture of friendship. Zayxus: ND needs to build more workers at the borders of ND to send them as citizens into the core to join them into cities with less corruption Zayxus: Bonigo could grow more quickly, to build workers nonstop vondrack: you mean you'd need our workers to join your city? Zayxus: in cities with many citizens 1 luxury can enjoy and bring to work 1 citizen in _many_ cities of big size.... I just try to calculate Zayxus: Either the cities at the borders grow more quickly as first step, or (and) the cities in the core get more citizens Zayxus: the more citizens, the longer it takes to grow for a city. vondrack: well, whatever - if you prefer our workers to actually work for you, cool. If you prefer them joining your cities, ok, too. vondrack: just put everything together and formulate a solid proposal vondrack: we will be happy to discuss (and probably agree to) it Zayxus: in the first step: I would prefer improving Bonigo by irrigation Zayxus: Perhaps there could be a city south of Bonigo in the hills, only producing workers. Zayxus: But this takes long. Zayxus: After riflemen ND might need some railways vondrack: yes, RR will be very important Zayxus: the ways are a bit long I thought, even for a 3-tiles-move-unit like an Ansar vondrack: that's right, RR will make everything "round the corner", so to say Zayxus: would you dare to build a RR at the borders, thinking strategically? vondrack: at the borders of our territory, or yours? Zayxus: ... your own's if you had a ROP with your neighbor? vondrack: well, probably yes vondrack: the rails do not help that much vondrack: the first wave still fights as if they were not there vondrack: I would build the RRs, but make my first line defenses rock solid Zayxus: At first RR at the core, and that gives more income... vondrack: yes, the core would be RRed first, that's for sure Zayxus: In how may turns could Legoland be in the next era? vondrack: 7 turns, I think vondrack: you can be there, too vondrack: all you need is to arrange a deal for ToG Zayxus: yes, did you already consider an offer? vondrack: well... I think I made you one few minutes ago vondrack: ToG + some worker jobs for gems and silks Zayxus: sounds good vondrack: alright, what about you specifying what terrain improvements you'd want our workers to do (as part of the deal)? Zayxus: At first Bonigo. Zayxus: then Daki and Essigbar: mine in hill or mountian Zayxus: Bonigo: two grasslands irrigated and one mountain gets a mine Zayxus: Daki: 1 mine in a hill Zayxus: Essigbar: two grasslands irrigated and one mountain gets a mine Zayxus: Daki: could get 2 grasslands irrigated, because I would prefer to irrigate the plains first. Zayxus: Then for these cities it is the same. Zayxus: (nearly) Zayxus: this would be just a list of what could be done as much as it is possible in these 20 turns vondrack: ok, I think this would be acceptable Zayxus: (btw: Essigbar is going to be moved 1 tile east to avoid building an aquaduct) vondrack: alright then... let's do it this way: vondrack: you give gems for 20 turns + silks for 15 turns (or whatever it is which is not covered by the current outgame deal) vondrack: we give ToG (no later than with Magnetism) and three workers to do some terrain improvements vondrack: you PM me a list of tiles/improvements to be done vondrack: I put everything together and PM you back with a trade agreement draft vondrack: ok? Zayxus: yes vondrack: cool - so I will wait for the list of improvements to be done and then PM you back with a draft vondrack: and now I am going to get some sleep... vondrack: take care, Zayxus vondrack: and see you in a week Zayxus: you too vondrack: ok, bye vondrack: g'night Zayxus: have a nice weekend Zayxus: bye Session Close: Thu Feb 26 23:25:42 2004

	28-02-2004 03:16									#104
	Remove this text

And it looks like ND would really be interested in the deal, as Zayxus sent a draft immediately after the chat (before going to bed):

quote: Hello vondrack! Here is the Proposal of a deal between ND and Legoland - thought up in 650AD. _____________________________________ Legoland offers 3 workers at parallel working for 20 turns. List of tiles to be improved, as far as possible: Bonigo: irrigation in grasslands field SE irrigation in grasslands field S mine in the mountians field NW and roads each Daki: irrigation in grasslands field SE irrigation in grasslands field S mine in the hills field N-NE and roads each Essigbar: irrigation in grasslands field S-SE (wheat) from the mountain there irrigation in grasslands field E-SE (wheat) from the mountain there mine in the hills field N (Gold) from the mountain there and roads each for: - Tech TOG (given no later than with magnetism) - Gems for 20 turns - Silks for 15 Turns from Legoland ________________________________________ Greetings Zayxus

I have outlined this idea few days ago, but did so in a re-used double-post (see 2 posts above), which most likely made you miss it. It was a bad idea (to re-use the double-post, I mean) - as I forgot to point that post out in the turn thread.

Anyway... we have a deal proposal here. 20+15 turns of luxuries in exchange for ToG and 48 worker turns (that's how long it will take our workers to do the jobs listed in Zayxus' proposal).

I suggest we go for it, for several reasons:

1) the luxuries help to keep our cities in WLTKD, which does wonders to our corruption levels in the big pop 12 cities; especially until we build cathedrals and Sistine
2) ToG is already available from GS, so we better arrange a deal before GS does - we deny profits to GS this way, getting something out of it ourselves
3) we have workers enough (plus Farmerville and Oasis will build workers in 2t) to lay our RR backbone in 5t, so sending three of them to work for ND shall not affect us in a measurable way
4) the workers will also be useful as 'spies', monitoring the coast that is very close to our own territory
5) we cement our good relations with ND, pulling them closer to us and further away from GoW/GS

I would appreciate your comments - the sooner we respond and possibly ratify the trade, the less we risk (though I doubt GS would be eager to trade ToG around at this very moment).

	28-02-2004 06:59									#105
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I especially like having spy workers

	28-02-2004 15:14									#106
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Sounds like a plan

	01-03-2004 06:47									#107
	Put an end to popups!

I didn't think about the spying...Zargon, I like the way your mind works. Glad your on my side

I agree with the trade.

	03-03-2004 01:54									#108
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As nobody seems to object the trade, I am PMing Zayxus with the following trade agreement proposal:

quote: Hello, Zayxus! Find the precised trade agreement draft below. I've checked the tiles that are to be improved and I believe you made one mistake - there is no hill N-NE of Daki. I assume you meant N-NW. If not, feel free to correct the text - as long as it is still a hill, it makes no difference for us. quote: Legoland-ND Theory of Gravity trade agreement 1) Legoland agrees to provide ND with Theory of Gravity no later than in 720AD (Turn 188). ND agrees to not resell/trade/gift Theory of Gravity to any other party for 20 turns from receiving it. 2) Legoland agrees to use 3 of its native workers to complete the following tasks for ND: roading & irrigating the grassland tile SE of Bonigo roading & irrigating the grassland tile S of Bonigo roading & mining the iron mountain tile NW of Bonigo roading & irrigating the grassland tile SE of Daki roading & irrigating the grassland tile S of Daki roading & mining the hill tile N-NW of Daki roading & irrigating the wheat grassland tile S-SE of the mountain near Essigbar roading & irrigating the wheat grassland tile E-SE of the mountain near Essigbar roading & mining the gold hill tile N of the mountain near Essigbar The terrain improvements as described shall be started in 700AD and completed with no unnecessary delays. 3) In exchange for Theory of Gravity and the terrain improvements outlined in the Paragraph 2 of this trade agreement, ND agrees to provide Legoland with a 20-turn supply of gems (starting from the turn, which the current gem trade expires on - 690AD, Turn 185) and a 15-turn supply of silks (starting from the turn the current silks trade expires on - 870AD, Turn 203). On behalf of The Senate of Legoland, vondrack I will do my best to attend the regular Thursday chat as usually - though I'm likely to be late by about an hour again. Cheers, vondrack

	05-03-2004 12:54									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The regular Thursday chat with Zayxus. I suggest you skim through it. Nothing important agreed upon (aside from finding out that our ToG deal will most probably be accepted), but you will get a feeling of how well we are doing with respect to our "get ND closer to us" plan.

quote: Session Start: Thu Mar 04 21:37:55 2004 Session Ident: #chatdeal * Now talking in #chatdeal vondrack: hi, Zayxus! Zayxus: hello! vondrack: ah, great! vondrack: thought everybody was away... vondrack: gow_cofa is silent vondrack: MZ away Zayxus: yes, he has to meet other people Zayxus: he told me vondrack: I see. Anyway... just one thing today - in case you accept the ToG deal vondrack: where would you like us to start? Zayxus: about the workers: at Bonigo , I suppose, moving arround costs moves, right? vondrack: yes, unless moving along roads vondrack: alright, then, we will do it as follows: vondrack: this turn, the three workers sail from Crossing vondrack: next turn, they land on the iron mountain vondrack: next but one turn, they start building a road there vondrack: so that they do not lose movement points while leaving the mountain vondrack: ok? vondrack: then they irrigate vondrack: then they mine the mountain Zayxus: all right, I watched a ship coming. vondrack: watched a ship coming? Zayxus: members of ND can see a ship on sea vondrack: which one? vondrack: the one that will carry our workers cannot be seen yet vondrack: will be finished in Crossing only this coming turn Zayxus: near Bonigo Zayxus: or near Sirtiago vondrack: ah, that's Nicholas Copernicus vondrack: that's not a transports ship, really vondrack: it's there on lookout only Zayxus: yes, seems not to move any more vondrack: yup, anchored now vondrack: just like the other ones along the coast vondrack: how's the city transfer going? vondrack: I noticed GoW founded Death Valley Zayxus: Oh dear, about the cities Zayxus: MZ demands one of our biggest cities, still vondrack: Dar-El-Killam? Zayxus: yes, and Members of ND would like to keep it... vondrack: hmmm... frankly, I do not see how that could be worked out - if it was part of the original deal between you and them Zayxus: in the beginning it was a small city... vondrack: the city sort of seems to be in their sphere of influence Zayxus: indeed, it is in their influence of lower curruption vondrack: are there many city improvements there? Zayxus: Oh yes, even improvements are there vondrack: well, if GoW were supposed to get it, you can't really complain about them demanding it now... it might be an idea to crank out few quick settlers out of the city to settle the unclaimed parts of the Southern Bob faster Zayxus: Members of ND wish to keep it.... they want to discuss this with MZ vondrack: understood vondrack: btw... what it was you celebrated last turn? Zayxus: Celebrated? vondrack: or did you just join the GS party? Zayxus: the party - smily? vondrack: yes Zayxus: that was just a joke vondrack: ah vondrack: btw... what is the response to the ToG deal proposal in your forum? Zayxus: moment Zayxus: only agreements vondrack: cool vondrack: I will dispatch the workers this turn then Zayxus: thank you. vondrack: our pleasure vondrack: the deal is fine for both sides vondrack: you get a costly tech and quite a lot of terrain improvements, we get luxuries, which we lack vondrack: plus, we help you to develop faster vondrack: which is part of our global strategy Zayxus: right Zayxus: the save is just open Zayxus: gems is for a turn Zayxus: Ivory is for 8 turns left vondrack: yup, that's correct vondrack: we will certainly be interested in trading for ivory again - just that until we enter the next age, it's not really possible to formulate a solid proposal vondrack: our first industrial research project will depend on what tech Vox get for free Zayxus: oh, let us see vondrack: so we will get back to you with a proposal in about 4 turns, I believe Zayxus: that is in time vondrack: yup vondrack: alright... unless there is anything else you would like to discuss, I will go now - feeling sleepy today vondrack: btw... have GS approached you with any trade proposals? Zayxus: Of cause. vondrack: it's kind of funny... we haven't received ANY communications from them for many many turns vondrack: just two of their boats charting the Big Ocean Zayxus: The council of Neu Cemogyptica had to decide, which offer of which civ had to be accepted. vondrack: we feel honoured it was us your council chose Zayxus: Trading was to only important for goods, but for politics, too. vondrack: understood Zayxus: My part is to conduct the decisions as Diplomat of ND vondrack: what is your post in ND, actually? Minister of Foreign Affairs? vondrack: Chief Diplomat? Zayxus: As you see, it is me, who writes and talks, thus I am the Diplomat, or Chief Diplomat for the people of ND. vondrack: I see... but the key decisions are taken by the Council (through voting), right? vondrack: no President or King or anything like that Zayxus: Yes, in ND it depends strongly on the decisions of the people of ND. vondrack: pretty much the same in Lego, I'd say Zayxus: There is just a council. Zayxus: Of cause, there is someone, who is suggesting a poll. vondrack: how many members still active? Zayxus: I am not sure, perhaps half a dozen. vondrack: 5-6 of us in Lego, too Zayxus: There are more hits than votes at each poll. vondrack: lurkers vondrack: Zayxus: seems so. Zayxus: Are you involved in other DGs? vondrack: sort of vondrack: only in ISDG vondrack: and then as a lurker in the MZO C3C demogame Zayxus: At other DGs I'm the lurker vondrack: I used to be one of the Apolyton Consuls during the first stages of ISDG vondrack: spent an awful lot of time with that game vondrack: but I was not able to maintain my level of participation vondrack: and had to step down for my own good vondrack: now I am mostly lurking there, posting only occasionally Zayxus: In this DG with ND the decisions are more abstract in politics and deals, in other DGs they still discuss every move vondrack: while it's very "democractic", it's not overly productive... Zayxus: I just try to find some important things running to be improved vondrack: alright, I guess I will go get some sleep vondrack: see you in a week? Zayxus: yes. vondrack: ok, looking forward to it vondrack: take care vondrack: bye Zayxus: bye Session Close: Thu Mar 04 22:31:38 2004

Also - notice, how it seems that ND and GoW no longer "sleep in one bed". The ND's membership desire to keep the city of Dar-El-Killam is sure to rile GoW up. We naturally do not know what kind of an agreement ND had with GoW and how precisely it was worded, but I bet that ND promised to give Dar-El-Killam to GoW - so GoW is going to be rightfully pissed off now.

	26-03-2004 23:44									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Our ivory deal is just about to expire (only one more turn to go as of this coming turn, I believe), so it's high time to strike a new deal. Obviously, we can try trading Steam Power to ND - I'd suggest trading Steam Power for either 40t of ivory (which I do not believe ND would agree to) or 20t of ivory plus a modest amount of gold... somewhere around 300-500g.

I would very much prefer to keep all our cities in WLTKD throughout the rest of our GA. We have quite a lot of builds pretty tightly scheduled...

Besides, we want to keep ND on our side...

Any objections?

	27-03-2004 01:24									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Make sure to get a No-Retrade clause in it (which I'm sure you would have, anyway ), and let's keep our people loving us

	27-03-2004 02:16									#112
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yep, standard legal mumbo-jumbo...

	27-03-2004 05:35									#113
	Got spare money?

Speaking of mumbo jumbo.... lots of African countries don't have an airline so they hire aircraft for official visits etc. One aircraft 'belonged' to 5 different african nations in one month. The plane was official name the 'Mumbo Jumbo'.

	27-03-2004 18:48									#114
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hmmmm... I cannot say this was entirely expected... fresh in my mailbox (from Zayxus):

quote: Hello! A poll about a Mutual Protection Pact with Legoland had the result, that many of ND would like it. How is the opinion about such a pact between Legoland and Neu Demogyptica? Sorry, I could not meet you to chat, but after 22:00 (Middle Europe) I was too tired. In future we need to appoint a time for each chat by Email or PM. Best Regards Zayxus

	27-03-2004 20:05									#115
	Increase Your PM Length

Hmmm....I would kindly say no. I don't see any benefits, to us, of a MPP. It also can be used against us, in the future, by pulling us into a fake war. It eliminates any element of surprise. It requires us to go to war without any vote or logical thinking, before hand.

So I don't think this is a good idea.

	28-03-2004 00:35									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

What lmtoops said. We can always join them in war as if we had a MPP, but if we don't sign one, our hands aren't tied and we can side with someone else if ND is meeting with too much success.

	28-03-2004 13:37									#117
	Tired of ads?

What lmtoops said

ND are the yellow ones, right?

I think we should sign a pact of non-agression, and a pact of goodwill (meaning we'll help if they are fighting a losing war), but definitely no MPP that would bring us to war without a vote, nor a RoP that often goes with MPPs.

	28-03-2004 15:57									#118
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes, ND are the yellow ones.

I happen to agree with all of you regarding the MPP - I even indicated this stance as my personal opinion while briefly acknowledging the receipt of Zayxus' message.

There is no need to sign any treaties at all. Spiffor, just FYI, NAPs and this kind of stuff was proven to be pretty much useless, as both major wars started with at least one team breaking his word: Voxes backstabbed GS at the dawn of the Stormian War, GoW backstabbed RP at the outbreak of The Great Bobian War, we more or less betrayed RP in the same war (by siding with GoW&ND). NAPs are only good to create a false feeling of safety and to sparkle flames in the public forum once they're broken.

So, my approach would be the same as all of you suggested. Let's assure ND of our intentions regarding the mutual cooperation. I will, again, explain what our long term policy is - Bob split in halves, GS on Stormia. Anything and everything messing with this balance of power is sure to push us towards the attacked, whoever it would be.

I would use this opportunity to talk about what we perceive as "threatening" and about what kind of policy regarding potential threats we intend to maintain. This should help avoid misunderstandings and make it easy for us to strike once we spot a threat coming from ND - as they will be unable to say "we didn't know you'd mind".

Speaking of which... we might try negotiating for the placement of a city that will be within the striking range of Crossing. This city will be a double-edged sword. ND will be able to use it as a launching point for a seaborne invasion of Legos. OTOH, if ND gets suddenly attacked, such a city would be a blessing - we could move our troops via Crossing and that city in a single turn (am I right? does loading/unloading in a coastal city consume any movement points?), if keeping a properly sized transport fleet in Crossing.

The best location for us (aside from no location at all, just having the tile railroaded and a settler always kept in reserve) would be S-S-S of Bonigo. That would allow ND to attack Crossing via single sea tile only (speaking pre-Nuclear Power), allowing us to block that tile with a strong fleet, making such an invasion even more difficult to carry out. I could try raising this issue, explaining that we see this as a tricky issue and that we would prefer either no city at all or a city S-S-S of Bonigo. Fortunately, no other ND city will ever be within the striking distance of a coastal city of ours.

Furthermore, we could (and should!) use this great opportunity to further strenghten the bonds between us and ND. Just imagine we'd be able to sign a deal ensuring ND buys every single tech we discover for a pre-negotiated price of luxuries and gold (following a formula we'd agree upon, like 1 tech = 20t of a luxury + certain percentage of the nominal beaker cost)! Now that would be absolutely awesome... guaranteed lux supplies and cool gold income for us, guaranteed tech competitiveness for ND. A smaller market for GoW & GS. I believe this is something we should really try hard to get.

To make the long story short: I agree we have no need to enter anything like an MPP. Our side in a potential future conflict shall be determined with respect to our momentary needs, not because of a treaty written hundreds years earlier. However, I believe we should respond very positively, warmly appreciate their interest in signing an MPP with us, countering with an offer effectively even better than what they ask for.

What do you think about the idea of arranging a general tech-for-lux-and-gold pact with ND? We feed them with techs (conditions? rules?), they supply us with luxuries and gold.

	29-03-2004 00:42									#119
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Sounds like we have another deal lined up...

quote: Hello Vondrak! Thank you for the Mail. about : > BTW... have you secured Nationalism from Vox? They got it as their > free industrial tech... and I specifically asked Beta (chatted with > him few days ago) to be easy and trade with you, suggesting a > lux-for-tech deal. Yesterday I did send a PM to Rhothaerill (Rhoth) about Technology Nationalism - two times: 24. and 7.03.2004 , but as I just checked, I got no answer yet - and the last PM is from 24.03.04. I just wrote a PM to Beta about the deal. about : > Well... dunno how much you have and how much you can spend, but > something like 20t of ivory plus about 400-500g would sound just about > right. We haven't discussed a precise amount in the Lego forum, only > the very idea of trading the tech to you, so I am pretty much free to > negotiate the gold part on my own. If you can spare 500g, we would be > able to use it well. But if it's too much, say how much you can > spend and I am sure we will be able to work something out. All right, ND can offer - 20t of ivory plus - 500g Best Regards Zayxus

I will send Steam Power to ND as 'unaccepted' this turn, PMing Zayxus with the usual legal wording (though I doubt it's necessary this time, as GoW is getting Steam Power from GS, Vox from us, and RP are stuck in the medieval era).

	31-03-2004 00:50									#120
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I am PMing Zayxus with the following trade proposal (it's just a formality, as I sent Steam Power as accepted this turn):

quote: Legoland-ND Steam Power trade agreement 1) Legoland agrees to provide ND with Steam Power in 760 AD (Turn 192). ND agrees to not resell/trade/gift Steam Power to any other party for 20 turns from receiving it. 2) In exchange for Steam Power, ND agrees to provide Legoland with 500g and a 20-turn supply of ivory. The gold is payable immediately upon the receipt of Steam Power (760 AD, Turn 192). The ivory supply shall start in 760 AD (Turn 192), too. On behalf of The Senate of Legoland, vondrack