31-03-2004 02:29									#121
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack What do you think about the idea of arranging a general tech-for-lux-and-gold pact with ND? We feed them with techs (conditions? rules?), they supply us with luxuries and gold.

Now that I know the geopolitical situation a bit better, I think it is a great idea. ND isn't going to be a threat anytime soon, so we can help them with good deals. Besides, if they need us to hope coming back to the game, it is unlikely they ever side against us when GS and GoW will declare war on us.

Making the pact permanent and systematic is the best way to reach this diplomatic goodwill. If they count on our goodwill for their long-term strategy (i.e, if we are the main factor in their scientific strategy), it is unlikely they ever accept to sacrifice a long term good asset for the short term spoils GS or GoW could offer them.

Since ND's situation should be radically different by the modern era, I suggest we make a parmanent science pact with them until both our Civs reach the modern era. This way, it opens to renegociation as the game's situation change.

	31-03-2004 03:09									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Since ND's situation should be radically different by the modern era, I suggest we make a parmanent science pact with them until both our Civs reach the modern era. This way, it opens to renegociation as the game's situation change.

I find this point/idea very good. Suggesting a pact for the full length of the industrial age sounds very good. ND should be happy to have it, as they can research pretty much nothing on their own, being too slow. With our backing, their planning would have a much more solid base.

Now, how much do we ask for all those techs...? ND is apparently quite happy to pay 20t of ivory & 500g for Steam Power, which was 2880-20%=~2300g after we discovered and sent it to them. So, perhaps making it like "ND keeps Lego supplied with all its luxuries and pays 20% of the actual tech cost after Lego discovers it? Or, say, 15% of the nominal cost? Maybe 15% of the nominal beaker cost would work best... 20% of the cost of a fresh new tech (i.e. our exclusive) is 20% of (100%-10%) = 18%. A bit more than 15%, but we will hardly be the first ones to discover every single tech...

So, perhaps two options?

Common: Lego supplies ND with dyes, ND supplies Lego with ivory, silks, spices, and gems.

Option A: ND pays 20% of the tech beaker cost effective immediately after Lego discovers the said tech (or at the moment ND receives it? they may wish to delay getting a tech, in case they do not need it and wish to keep it as costly for GS/GoW as possible).

Option B: ND pays 15% of the nominal beaker cost for every tech received from us.

It goes without saying that this would only apply to techs Lego researches on its own, not to techs acquired through trading. I would suggest we limit the pact to the mandatory techs. I do not think we should rush to trade, say, Amphibious Warfare to them...

The more I am thinking about this, the more I like it... imagine we striked such a deal... first: we could stop worrying about luxuries for the whole of industrial era (plus, we'd enjoy WLTKDs all the time). We would have a sure buyer for every single tech we'd pick/research. We'd indirectly force GoW/GS to trade with us, because it would be cost uneffective for them to research techs already researched by us (as they would only be able to trade between themselves). Means we would have no tech embargo to fear.

Plus, we'd strengthen our ties with ND to such an extent, that we'd gradually become the last ones they'd look towards when searching for a target. And if we manage to keep the rest of the world divided, we win.

With the fast pace of the game I expect (4t techs all the way, especially if we secure extra funding from ND), ND would not be able to properly utilize the techs (lacking the shields to actually build improvements), never able to fully catch up with us (we would utilize them better because of our gigantic head-start and huge shield lead). They'd catch up with others, while helping us stay ahead...

	31-03-2004 05:38									#123
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I favor option B. It is cheaper for them, and more flexible for them. As you said, their lack of shileds will make almost sure they won't use these techs properly, so there is no reason to hold back. Besides, I'm more comfortable thinking they consider us as a necessity for a quick comeback. The easier we make it for them, the more interested in keeping us around they'll be.

It is also a good idea to have this science pact only concern mandatory techs. It will still be very useful to them, without giving them some strategic advantages we will suffer from (espionage and amphibious warfare).

I also suggest the pact mentions they cannot trade our techs with any other team. We don't want them to tech-whore, and get humongous amounts of cash doing so. If they tech-whore successfully, they may very well end up building their infrastructure much, much faster than we expect (and this would be bad for us)

	31-03-2004 07:34									#124
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Considering we'd be getting three luxes out of this deal, I think we can give them cheap option B.

	01-04-2004 04:42									#125
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I agree with Option B

	03-04-2004 01:12									#126
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Yesterday's chat with Zayxus:

quote: Session Start: Thu Apr 01 21:20:55 2004 Session Ident: Zayxus vondrack: hello! Zayxus: hello! vondrack: ok, straight to the point: Zayxus: yes vondrack: the feedback in our forum vondrack: regarding your MPP idea vondrack: was pretty much along what I responded with vondrack: NAPs MPPs and that sort of stuff is usually just words vondrack: and seldom stop people/teams from acting in their best interest vondrack: we (Lego) are a very good example vondrack: since we basically broke a treaty with RP by siding with you and GoW vondrack: but RP was an extremely difficult partner vondrack: no good trades, strained relations etc. vondrack: so we did not see it as a big problem to reason our way out of the treaty vondrack: and follow our primary goals vondrack: so... vondrack: what we really value is deeds, not words vondrack: I have come up with a pretty new idea in our forum vondrack: and so far, the response was very positive Zayxus: interesting vondrack: 3 people supporting it vondrack: nobody against vondrack: I believe it's as good as "universally supported" vondrack: here is what the idea is about : vondrack: basically, you could call it "a general tech-for-lux deal for the duration of the industrial era" vondrack: the basic points: vondrack: 1) Lego provides dyes to ND vondrack: 2) ND provides ivory, spices, gems, and silks to Lego vondrack: 3) Lego provides ND with every mandatory tech researched for 15% of the nominal beaker cost vondrack: there is a number of subtleties vondrack: but this is the crux of the whole thing vondrack: means that we trade you every tech we discover vondrack: for 15% of what its costs in the editor is vondrack: optional techs would not be subject to this arrangement - but that's not to say we would not trade them vondrack: honestly - I do not expect us to do many optional techs in this era Zayxus: right straight the line vondrack: more or less, yes vondrack: not sure how all this sounds to you, but from our PoV, it's probably more than an NAP or MPP Zayxus: about sanitation, would that be important for pop over 12? vondrack: yes, important vondrack: but we hope to trade for it vondrack: it's not decided yet, but we hope to get it through trade Zayxus: ND already checks deals about it. vondrack: we are currently doing Industrialization vondrack: and plan to continue with The Corporation vondrack: and then onwards through that part of the tech tree vondrack: it's obvious you would still need to get some techs from other teams vondrack: but we would guarantee that whatever WE discover, you get Zayxus: About the Deal instead of a pact: that sounds adaquate. Zayxus: For me, I would like such a deal. vondrack: speaking of deal/NAP/MPP vondrack: it's obvious that if we have a deal like that vondrack: we would come to your aid if you were attacked vondrack: since losing such a good partner would be a bad thing for us Zayxus: I understand vondrack: it's an implied "guarantee", nothing explicitely said/promised vondrack: but I believe that implied guarantees work better than NAPs/MPPs vondrack: so... vondrack: if you can present this idea to your team and see what they think about it vondrack: we would be happy to discuss and hopefully arrange such a "pact" Zayxus: I would like to present it. Zayxus: But our forum is just moved to another host. vondrack: oops - is that a problem (the forum move)? Zayxus: let us go on first... vondrack: ok vondrack: as for the "subtleties" I was mentioning... vondrack: there would still be the issue of optional techs vondrack: there would be the possibility of you researching optional techs and trading them to us Zayxus: The last turns, ND did not research at all. vondrack: that was reasonable Zayxus: There was no sense in research. vondrack: it's best for you to go full tax now vondrack: yes Zayxus: ND would like to support other in exchange for the researched tech. vondrack: support other in exchange? not sure I understand... vondrack: oh, I think I get it vondrack: you would like to support someone else with gold/lux vondrack: in exchange for getting the techs Zayxus: yes. vondrack: ok, I get it now vondrack: that's basically what I offered, I think vondrack: ...and the last thing would be vondrack: the placement of your city which would be "across the sea" vondrack: we have Crossing on our side vondrack: you will undoubtedly have one of your cities on the other side Zayxus: Legoland offers a city on the other side? vondrack: no, that was not what I meant vondrack: I meant: vondrack: you are going to place a city of yours on "your" side of the "channel" vondrack: on the coast between Bonigo and Daki (?) vondrack: there are several possible locations Zayxus: I'm opening a picture... vondrack: we would be very pleased if we agreed on the location of that city vondrack: ok, me too vondrack: ok, look at those two Ansars Zayxus: there is only a hill left to settle vondrack: your city can be placed where the Northern Ansar is vondrack: your city can be placed where the Southern Ansar is vondrack: your city can be placed somewhere between them vondrack: from our PoV, the preferred location would be S-S-S of Bonigo vondrack: here is why: vondrack: - in case you are attacked and need help QUICKLY vondrack: you could gift the city to us vondrack: and we could move a significant number of troops from Crossing to there vondrack: in a single turn vondrack: being able to immediately use the troops to counterattack vondrack: as loading and unloading in a city does not consume movement points vondrack: our transports will be able to move 6 tiles thanks to the Magellan's vondrack: so we could keep about 4-5 of them in Crossing vondrack: and in case of emergency, we would be able to rush troops to Bob in a single turn vondrack: through these two cities vondrack: - second vondrack: I will be honest vondrack: that location presents the least threat to ourselves vondrack: we are talking good friends now vondrack: but who knows what's going to happen 100 turns later Zayxus: yes vondrack: if you place your city "outside" of range vondrack: it would certainly increase our feeling of "safety" vondrack: I admit I have not evaluated the locations with respect to their terrain vondrack: so the location I described may be an inferior one vondrack: so... this is not a "request" or "condition" for our research pact vondrack: rather something that would make us happy Zayxus: the left points to settle are all the last places except for 1 or 2 in the east vondrack: you mean you plan to settle this part as the last part of your half of Bob? Zayxus: there is a settler free to be moved south next turn. Zayxus: and could settle south-west in several turns Zayxus: after a long way vondrack: well, I am not saying we feel you SHOULD settle that part ASAP vondrack: I am saying that ONCE you decide to settle it vondrack: we would be happy if it was the place I described Zayxus: - why not at the place of the Rider ? vondrack: well Zayxus: next to Bonigo vondrack: you mean E-E-E-NE of Crossing? Zayxus: can't see the city on my picture vondrack: ah vondrack: S-S-SW-SW-SW of Bonigo? Zayxus: yes like s-sw-sw-sw vondrack: that's a mountain...!? Zayxus: you are rigth is is your choice, because my picture is not good enough vondrack: know what? I will send you a picture and a detailed explanation vondrack: of why we would prefer the city where I said vondrack: it's not really part of the research/lux/gold deal Zayxus: s-s-sw-sw-sw of Bonigo; ND would have to build a harbour anyway vondrack: so you could discuss it completely separately vondrack: harbour? well, yes, to allow the city to grow, of course vondrack: the city will be a piece of **** either way (pardon the language) vondrack: too many mountains there vondrack: but it will be strategically important Zayxus: next step would be to build a railway Zayxus: to the north vondrack: yes vondrack: perhaps our workers could do that vondrack: once they are done with their assignments vondrack: around Bonigo, Daki, and that third city Zayxus: if you like vondrack: depends on how fast you want that city to be founded vondrack: I do not think it's urgent vondrack: but better not delay it for too long Zayxus: there is a lot to build in ND about railways vondrack: agreed vondrack: we, too, have a lot to railroad Zayxus: connection between capitol and forbidden Palace first Zayxus: some cities need irrigation Zayxus: still a lot of jungle to clear Zayxus: and so on vondrack: understood Zayxus: up to now there are two topics: Zayxus: tech-lux-deal Zayxus: city and railway vondrack: yep vondrack: separate issues Zayxus: thank you for the steam power vondrack: vondrack: you are welcome Zayxus: ND has to hurry to connect the coal vondrack: yup vondrack: hmmm... come to think of it... vondrack: we could provide you with coal for some time if you need vondrack: we have an extra (connected) source Zayxus: that would be fine, to start railways sooner vondrack: yep Zayxus: every rail gives ND one more gold Zayxus: what would Legoland like to get for coal? vondrack: nah, that would be for free vondrack: we know you do have your own vondrack: it would just be a matter of helping friends Zayxus: Thank you. vondrack: shall I send it next turn then? Zayxus: Yes , please. vondrack: ok, will do vondrack: well - that's about all for today vondrack: at least from my side Zayxus: Right. Zayxus: About that game Civ: Zayxus: It is really interesting, how it came to such a sharing of tasks: vondrack: vondrack: yes Zayxus: one civ concentrates on research, building universities... Zayxus: the other is on money, provides the other with Gold Zayxus: ... and another may be building forces vondrack: oh, which one that would be? Zayxus: ND has to do decisions from time to time in general. vondrack: everybody has... Zayxus: I do not know which civs concentrate on troops, really. Zayxus: we all have to think about that topic vondrack: I cannot really tell either... we have been strong vs. everyone for quite some time now Zayxus: ND would like to upgrade defense, of cause. vondrack: have you managed to arrange the deal with Vox? for Nationalism? Zayxus: Checking key F8 I wonder about the reasons of changes. Zayxus: yes the deal is in game on the way vondrack: cool, glad to hear that vondrack: I asked them to be easy vondrack: I knew you were very keen on getting Nationalism Zayxus: yes vondrack: alright then Zayxus: About the forum: Zayxus: ND changes the host Zayxus: For technical reasons of the forum Zayxus: - host Zayxus: Anyway, could you send a agreement? Zayxus: I mean a collection of the ideas? vondrack: yes, I can vondrack: I will try to do so tomorrow Zayxus: about lux-tech vondrack: yup Zayxus: does not hurry vondrack: ok Zayxus: after all I can post it at Apolyton Zayxus: in the ND.forum there vondrack: yep Zayxus: that is my part Zayxus: for today vondrack: ok vondrack: see you in a week then! vondrack: 21:00 CET again? Zayxus: hope so , too! vondrack: ok, take care vondrack: bye Zayxus: you too Zayxus: bye Session Close: Thu Apr 01 22:18:20 2004

Aside from presenting our tech-for-lux-and-gold (T4L&G ) pact and touching the issue of their city facing Crossing over the channel, there was only one thing I sort of improvised. I promised Zayxus we would provide them with coal. Sorry for not consulting this, but I thought it was no big deal - they do have their own source, so it's just a matter of few more turns before they get their own supplies, and we have an extra source we do not need at the moment.

A gesture of good will that costs us nothing...

	03-04-2004 03:04									#127
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I think it was a good idea. They will connect the coal source anyway (because they don't want to be mortally dependent of our coal when they can easily rely on theirs), and it's a gesture of goodwill

Also, it is good to see the idea of the science pact is welcome, although Zaxyus will clearly want to think about it with his teammates. I suppose they'll guess our intentions to make them polite and dependent to us, but I think they'll accept it without hesitating: they are clearly fearing for their survival, and I suppose they'll accept pretty much any hand that feeds them.

	03-04-2004 07:22									#128
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I'm okay with gifting it to them while they connect their own source.

quote: Zayxus: connection between capitol and forbidden Palace first

A slip, or misinformation? Or even neither?

	03-04-2004 10:36									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep A slip, or misinformation? Or even neither?

Not-so-secret information, I would say. I recall Zayxus mentioning they'd have their FP finished "soon" quite a long time ago.

	03-04-2004 11:53									#130
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BTW... am I just ignorant, or is Zayxus wrong about railroads bringing more commerce in? I thought only roads did... no other terrain improvement increases the commerce production, right?

	03-04-2004 13:58									#131
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I thought they gave +1 bonus to everything......

	04-04-2004 06:26									#132
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RRs only increase food and shields.

	04-04-2004 10:20									#133
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RRs only increase whatever it is that was already increased by irrigation or mining. Mined tiles get +1 shield, irrigated tiles get +1 food (just checked that ingame).

So... Trip... are you with us now? Advisory post?

Just kidding - glad to see you still watching our forum. How's writing the History of PtWDG going?

	04-04-2004 21:48									#134
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As per Zayxus' request, I have emailed him with the following summaries today:

quote: Hi, Zayxus! Sorry for the delay. Various stuff has kept me busy until now. Poly is having hiccups right now, so I am going to sum our Thursday chat up in this email. First, the idea of a research/luxury pact in points: a) Lego would trade dyes to ND b) ND would trade ivory, spices, silks, and gems to Lego c) Lego would trade every mandatory industrial tech discovered through research to ND for 15% of its nominal beaker cost in gold d) the duration of the pact would be the whole of industrial era ad a+b) ~~~~~~ This is very simple - we share our luxuries for the whole of industrial era. More or less, it's a simple 1-for-1 lux trade, with the remaining 3 luxuries on your side being part of the "payment" for the techs. ad c) ~~~~ The pact would apply to all MANDATORY INDUSTRIAL techs RESEARCHED by Lego. This is not to say we would never trade optional techs – just that those would not be part of this deal and would be negotiated on a case-by-case basis. Techs that Lego might gain through trading would not be covered by the pact. You would be free to ask for a tech to be delivered pretty much any time, starting from the turn we discover it (though we'd appreciate, if you asked only after you had some use for it, so that the tech price would not go down prematurely. In return, we would ask 15% of its nominal beaker costs (plus the ongoing luxury supplies) as found in the editor. As an example: Steam Power would have been 15% of 2880 beakers = 432g. The pact would not cover techs researched by ND (so it is not about sharing techs MUTUALLY) - Lego would be happy to trade for techs you might research on your own, paying (most probably) with gold, but you'd never be obliged to trade us techs you would have researched. ad d) ~~~~ The pact would expire with both teams entering the modern era. This is not to say we will not be interested in prolonging the pact then, but modern era is quite far in the future and it's sort of difficult to estimate what the situation is going to be that many turns later from now. We would prefer renegotiating the pact then. One of the issues to precise would be how to handle the luxury deals going on at the moment the pact would expire. Perhaps we could agree on a certain amount of gold per every turn of a luxury going "beyond" the duration of our pact, payable upon the expiration of our pact? That's just about it. It's a rather fresh idea at this moment (though it's supported pretty much universally in Legoland) and we are open to discuss everything you might see as a problem. We believe a pact like this would be more valuable than an MPP, because you would have a good reason to come to our aid (as we'd be your main source of reasonably priced techs) and we would have a very good reason to come to your aid, should the need arise (as you would be our major luxury supplier and a "great" customer). This, we believe, would create a bond going far beyond any MPPs we could agree on. I am going to sum the city location issue in a separate email. vondrack, on behalf of Legoland

quote: Now, the other issue I touched last Thursday - the location of your coastal city that is to be founded somewhere between Bonigo and Daki. To make it easier to describe/understand, I am attaching a picture. It's obvious there are 6 different locations a city can be placed in. I'll now try to explain what our preferences regarding this city are. Mind you, we are not asking, nor requesting, nor demanding anything - this is not even related to the "research pact" in any way. This is mostly to explain our concerns regarding the area - if you eventually decide to settle in a location not preferred by us, we are going to respect that, of course. Several factors come into play here: A. ND's defenses against Legoland ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Very little difference between the locations. Once Legoland galleons are upgraded to Transports (movement: 5+1 because of the Magellan's), all of the locations will be within a single-turn range of transports anchored in Crossing. Means that, purely theoretically (we do NOT plan anything like that!), loading few transports with marines that would take the city by a surprise (read: backstab) attack, we'd be able to move more transports loaded with fast attackers into the city, unload them and immediately use them to attack Bonigo, Daki, or another city in the area connected via a railroad (as un/loading in a city consumes no movement points). Prior to Transports, locations denoted with "7" would be safe from this kind of an attack. B. ND's defenses against other teams ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The manoeuvre described in the previous paragraph may, however, be beneficial to ND, if ND comes under attack from GoW or GS. On the very turn you would come under attack, you could gift the city & RoP to us, so that we could, on our turn, use Transports anchored in Crossing to ferry large numbers of our troops to that city, unload them losing no movement points - and immediately deploy or counterattack with them wherever needed. Prior to Transports, this would only be possible through the cities denoted "5" & "6", starting with Transports, all locations would allow this. There is, however, one prerequisite - the city would have to be connected to your railroad network. C. Legoland's defense against ND ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The same surprise seaborne attack described in the first paragraph may be carried out by ND against Legoland (still speaking theoretical only here). Transports loaded with marines, sailing off from locations "5" or "6", would be able to attack and possible take the city of Crossing in a single turn, allowing more transports loaded with fast attackers to be ferried, unloaded in Crossing, and immediately used to attack Zargonia or Logville. Prior to Transports, only the location "5" would allow such an attack. Once Transports come into play, the location "6" would allow that, too. With the discovery of Nuclear Power, all locations will allow that. D. Economics ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ignoring the strategic use of a city placed in one of the locations in question, there is the "quality" of the surrounding terrain to be considered: "5" - fish and 2 hills in the outer radius, otherwise only mountains (4) and water (13) "6" - 5 hills in the inner radius, 3 plains and 2 more hills in the outer radius; the rest is mountains (4) and water (6) "7A" - 2 hills in the inner radius, desert and 4 more hills in the outer radius, otherwise only mountains (10) and water (3) "7B" - 5 hills in the inner radius, 2 plains, desert, and 2 more hills in the outer radius, the rest is mountains (7) and water (3) "7C" - 4 hills and 3 plains in the inner radius, 2 more plains and 3 more hills in the outer radius; the rest is 1 mountain, Daki, and 6 water tiles "7D" - 2 hills and 2 plains in the inner radius, 2 more hills and 2 more plains in the outer radius; the rest is 11 water tiles and Daki Now, all this said - Lego would very much prefer that city of yours to be placed in one of the locations denoted with "7". We would feel very safe then and would greatly appreciate that as a gesture of good will and friendship. At the same time, such a city would very soon (once we have Transports available) allow us to immediately come to your aid in case you needed us to. From the economic PoV, we however do admit that some of the "7"-positions may be economically inferior and partially overlapping with Daki. "7B" would probably be the best "7"-location - working irrigated and railroaded plains N and N-NE of Daki, the city would be able to work up to 4 mined hills (plus the irrigated/railroaded desert and - with a harbour - up to 3 coastal tiles), getting to a pop 10 and a pretty decent shield output. If you consider placing your city to one of the locations preferred by us, I'm sure our workers would be happy to help you with improving the terrain around it - perhaps to an extent of doing ALL the terrain improvements needed by such a city. And once again - this is only a matter of preference, not a matter of life and death. We will be able to live with "5" or "6", too - even if any one of the "7"s would make us much happier. Best regards, vondrack on behalf of Legoland

And here is the picture I attached:

	09-04-2004 03:20									#135
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This time, you better read the chat for yourself... it is worth reading it, I'd say.

quote: Session Start: Thu Apr 08 21:32:24 2004 Session Ident: Zayxus vondrack: hello! Zayxus: hello! vondrack: so... anything new? vondrack: Zayxus - feel free to finish your other chat vondrack: we can talk once you are ready, ok? Zayxus: when would be the next deal? vondrack: next tech? Zayxus: yes vondrack: Industrialization Zayxus: ND needs to spare Gold, much much for witch turn would that be? vondrack: we will be able to deliver Ind starting this turn (we are going to discover it this coming turn) * Zayxus is in 3 chats in the moment vondrack: vondrack: no problem - finish your other two chats vondrack: and let me know vondrack: I have some stuff to do while you finish your chats Zayxus: Today darekill is with MZ, and it is your time now. vondrack: yay, Darekill online? vondrack: perhaps we can meet together after Darekill finishes his chat with MZ? Zayxus: yes, for this chat, very important diplomatic contsnts vondrack: contsnts? Zayxus: ok see you in 15 minutes again? vondrack: ok, 15 minutes Zayxus: it is too much at MZ-channel... vondrack: no problem Zayxus: see you.. Zayxus: . vondrack: yep? vondrack: sorry, overheard your dot Zayxus: tested the connection vondrack: still talking to MZ? Zayxus: yes vondrack: k, np Zayxus: but silence at the moment vondrack: LoL - someone pondering about a difficult decision? Zayxus: no, long sentences vondrack: ah Zayxus: About our deal: Could ND pay in several turns for the next tech? vondrack: I believe that would be no problem Zayxus: What about 100 G / turn ? vondrack: that would work, I believe Zayxus: do we set up a contract? vondrack: you mean an Industrialization-specific contract? Zayxus: moment. vondrack: or the "pact"? Zayxus: that tech only, our last contract was about Steampower, is this correct? vondrack: well, yes... but to be honest, we would very much prefer to cover Ind with the general pact rather than with a separate deal Zayxus: That is good, too. Zayxus: vondrack, the situation between the civs is critical. ND is fighting on a level of diplomacy. vondrack: between you and GoW? Zayxus: between all big civs vondrack: this sounds a bit mysterious to me... Zayxus: For the matter of peace, and I mean a peace in diplomacy, ND has to search for an adequate way. vondrack: I am not sure I understand Zayxus: The chat with MZ is a fight. vondrack: oh... he's always like that vondrack: brings in the fond memories of Aggie... Zayxus: For the peace, it might be better a way of deals step by step. Zayxus: Thus I suggest, we make a contract about the tech ind. first. vondrack: Frankly, I do not think I am authorized to strike a separate deal on Ind - I will have to consult with the team Zayxus: ND wants to build, but our neighbour wants to fight. vondrack: hm, they want to fight Lego? Zayxus: Or ND, it depends, how strong ND would reveal a pact with Legoland. Zayxus: But me and Darekill are not so keen on a war of the world. vondrack: wel, that's understandable - you've got the least to gain in a war like that vondrack: and we've got most to lose in a war like that Zayxus: ND and Legoland prepared ideas to defend, but we are rather near to that, it seems. GOW wants to fight. Zayxus: Fight in the sense of winning the game. Zayxus: This game is not decided yet. vondrack: true Zayxus: If it was decided, we could stop it. Zayxus: Every nation seems to be building units, still. vondrack: could be - I know we still are building a unit here and there vondrack: though most of our shields now go to infra Zayxus: It is a question, not if, but when these forces come into action, but I hope not. vondrack: agreed vondrack: there will be at least one more big war Zayxus: GOW knows by in-game-infos about facts vondrack: ? Zayxus: the art of all is the diplomacy vondrack: like us helping you out with terrain improvements? and trading techs? Zayxus: quite open is this improving terrain, yes. vondrack: yep - their riders spotted our workers this turn vondrack: I actually thought the riders were your ansars - all the time vondrack: silly me vondrack: only realized they were riders this turn vondrack: seeing a real ansar of yours Zayxus: state of research by deal screen Zayxus: luxury is quite secret, except , if ND has no left to deal vondrack: hmmm... GoW fears a strong Lego+ND alliance, right? Zayxus: More easily, GOW fears not to win. vondrack: well, yes... Zayxus: All we need: that is a balance. vondrack: honestly - there is only so much balance that can be achieved in this world Zayxus: important is the impression to all involved, to be at a chance to win Zayxus: the balance is in our mind vondrack: I see vondrack: that's true vondrack: well, understanding your situation a bit better now... vondrack: what is the reason for asking a separate Ind deal? vondrack: I mean Zayxus: if it is obvisiously to GOW, if the balance is not given - at this moment Zayxus: yes? vondrack: we can certainly make our pact secret Zayxus: the best secret is: no written pact. vondrack: I think it does not matter too much to us whether a pact is written or not vondrack: as I said - pacts and treaties are only good to be broken by either party Zayxus: yes, the kind of doing it counts. vondrack: when they are no longer beneficial to both parties Zayxus: MZ demands the next city. vondrack: which one is that? vondrack: Stonedina? Mavdad? Zayxus: Mavdad is wanted vondrack: I see vondrack: give me a sec - I will open the save * Zayxus waits vondrack: hmmmmm vondrack: honestly vondrack: they are not really acting like a considerate ally of yours Zayxus: why? vondrack: can they see what you have to work with? vondrack: a bunch of newly found cities vondrack: your old core partially gone vondrack: while they are happily nurturing their lands vondrack: oh, well Zayxus: yes? vondrack: have you got Nationalism from Vox yet? Zayxus: Yes, ND did upgrade some units already vondrack: cool! Anagramaskus is so vulnerable... vondrack: and your capital... vondrack: you paid dearly for your victory Zayxus: ND can only defend either city with effect. Zayxus: Anagramaskus has to be blocked by workers, we thought Zayxus: that are some workers lost on the long time vondrack: I see vondrack: well, I can see why you are so keen on maintaining peace Zayxus: of cause, that is the reason by geographics vondrack: let's get back to Industrialization: vondrack: do you need it at the moment? vondrack: I mean - would you build factories? Zayxus: yes, ND would build factories, after culture, instead of units. vondrack: ok, let me check the current lux deals we have Zayxus: yes vondrack: gems till 890AD (Theory of Gravity + worker jobs deal) vondrack: silks till 1020AD (Theory of Gravity + worker jobs deal) vondrack: spices for dyes - ongoing vondrack: ivory till about 990AD (Steam Power deal) vondrack: so... seems like the lux part is good for a number of turns vondrack: all 4 covered at least until 890AD, which is 10+ turns vondrack: I guess trading you Ind for gold without covering it with the pact would be doable vondrack: since there are no more luxuries you could trade to us anyway vondrack: I still need to bring this back to my team vondrack: but I hope there would be no problem Zayxus: this is fine so far. vondrack: after all, it is the fact that we do an ongoing business together which matters Zayxus: yes. vondrack: the whole pact is more of a guideline, so that we do not have to handle every deal separately vondrack: and it is also an expression of our long-term intentions vondrack: as even if we had the pact signed, we would not be getting anything above the gold for Ind Zayxus: it is less easear to keep peace as to prepare a war of defense vondrack: alright, a totally different question: vondrack: do you consider researching something yourselves? Zayxus: I have to check... Zayxus: something, which is left: Zayxus: Espionage, in 40 turns with one scientist vondrack: nah... you better make that scientist a labourer vondrack: 40 turns is way too long vondrack: even for Espionage Zayxus: if civ else researches it, ... ND does not spent Gold in own research yet. vondrack: what's your maximum science output that is still not pulling you down to red numbers? Zayxus: 60 % is in green numbers vondrack: and that generates how much research (in beakers)? vondrack: I am trying to figure out whether you can actually research something reasonably fast Zayxus: I do not know in beakers, there is only payment in Gold vondrack: F1, orange section (top middle of the screen), "Science" vondrack: there will be a negative number before that label Zayxus: yes, that is in Gold vondrack: that's how many beakers you generate at that rate vondrack: yes, 1 beaker is 1 gold for this purpose Zayxus: ND cannot go to that, because ND has to pay to deals in the moment vondrack: well, yes... but if, for example, Lego waived some or all payments for techs delivered to you, it could be different vondrack: well, I am not going to push it Zayxus: ND could spent 100 Gold / turn for another research vondrack: hmmmmm Zayxus: in the moment Zayxus: At 100% ND would loose aboout 200 Gold/T vondrack: I will keep that in mind vondrack: means that with a modest extra funding vondrack: you could do techs in about 10-15 turns Zayxus: correct vondrack: as techs are usually around 2500-3000 beakers now vondrack: that's not so bad Zayxus: Really amasing after that long war. vondrack: yup vondrack: ok, nevermind... I may revisit the idea again later on vondrack: but right now, it does not seem very feasible vondrack: btw... what the hell are those two riders doing there? (between Bonigo & Daki) Zayxus: these Riders were out there by MZ after the war and after Aggie of GOW went Zayxus: as guards by GOW vondrack: guards? Zayxus: I did not dare to ask MZ to remove them vondrack: well, do not ask him to remove them... "allow them to leave" Zayxus: The settler is now near the place and one Rider may be moving away after that vondrack: I see vondrack: where is the settler going to? Zayxus: if ND even settles at that cap, the other would leave... Zayxus: the next settler is at the place you recommended vondrack: 7B? Zayxus: yes vondrack: cool vondrack: that's great Zayxus: where the Ansar is Zayxus: right? vondrack: no, I do not think so - the Ansar is at "6", I believe vondrack: 7B is NE of him Zayxus: right, just found the picture vondrack: I will have to think up a plan to get to Replaceable Parts ASAP vondrack: we will really need to keep a couple of transports ready in Crossing vondrack: so that we can, if you get under attack, rush units to your aid quickly Zayxus: (replacable parts means better defense) vondrack: true - infantry is good, too vondrack: oh, silly me - transports come with combustion, not repl parts Zayxus: yes, these transports would be adequate Zayxus: galleons then vondrack: which is better, however, as we intend to research along the Ind-Corporation-Refining/Steel-Combustion line vondrack: not sure about making a detour for repl parts vondrack: but it may be needed Zayxus: finally we would have to research nearly everything vondrack: true Zayxus: what is the use of flight? vondrack: bombers & fighters vondrack: can be powerful, but you need large numbers of them Zayxus: I assume, bombers are the compensation to railroads? vondrack: if you mean that you use bombers to destroy railroads - then yes Zayxus: yes, I would like to play more civ, to check it... vondrack: well... the situation seems to be quite complicated... vondrack: but for the moment vondrack: there is only so much we can do: vondrack: I am going to send Ind as accepted to you this coming turn vondrack: the price is 432g vondrack: payable in several installments vondrack: it's up to you to decide how you do it vondrack: 100+100+100+100+32 would be ok vondrack: 80+80+80+80+80+32 would be ok, too Zayxus: I'll check it next turn, perhaps ND can pay it at once. vondrack: no need, Zayxus vondrack: we have a reasonable cash reserve Zayxus: Luckily nobody can see the flow of money in this game vondrack: yes vondrack: we shall then start researching The Corporation vondrack: regarding the "pact": vondrack: we sign no formal treaty for the moment Zayxus: yes vondrack: though we both agree that such a pact is in fact what we both are interested in vondrack: and what we shall actually follow vondrack: we offer techs to you at 15% of their nominal cost vondrack: and you are easy on luxuries Zayxus: yes vondrack: the city goes to 7B vondrack: and that's pretty much all that I need to know vondrack: also, I will make sure to keep our relations at least veiled whenever talking to GoW vondrack: I understand it's not a good idea to disclose the true nature of it Zayxus: Yes, that is the point: the nature of it is important not to reveal. vondrack: I will make sure all Legos are aware of that Zayxus: But it is obvisiously to GOW, if ND has no Luxuries left. Zayxus: in the screen F2 vondrack: true vondrack: though they know little about how the deals are arranged Zayxus: yes. vondrack: ok, then - I guess that's it for today Zayxus: About the "7B": could that desert between the mountains be irrigated? vondrack: yes - once you have Electricity vondrack: or us, if it is us irrigating it Zayxus: fine, should know it Zayxus: about Electricity vondrack: I know it well because of Voxes vondrack: they need Electricity badly vondrack: no fresh water on Legos Minor (aka Voxtavia) Zayxus: mostly big mountains arround vondrack: yep vondrack: very rugged terrain vondrack: anyway... I feel like getting some sleep now Zayxus: me too vondrack: give my best regards to Darekill vondrack: I kind of regret I was not able to talk to him Zayxus: yes, thank you vondrack: I hope we can meet next week vondrack: same time? Zayxus: yes, but D. is on trip vondrack: ah vondrack: ok, then Zayxus: 2 weeks Zayxus: me next week Zayxus: here vondrack: ok, looking forward to the next Thursday! vondrack: take care Zayxus: bye vondrack: bye Session Close: Fri Apr 09 00:04:15 2004

I will do my best to add a couple of comments tomorrow. Ummmm, later today.

	10-04-2004 03:13									#136
	Support Apolyton

So is GoW really upset about our relationship with ND OR are they just using that as an excuse to attack? I guess either answer could be true.

My opinion, GoW wants to keep ND weak so they can take them in the near future. If Legoland continues to help ND, then ND not stay weak for long, which does not help GoW. So GoW will attack sooner rather than later; either way the attack is coming.

If war is eminent, we may need to speed up some research (Combustion) and alter from our path (Replacement Parts). All this will be discussed in detail by the team.

Leo

	10-04-2004 10:11									#137
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by lmtoops So is GoW really upset about our relationship with ND OR are they just using that as an excuse to attack? I guess either answer could be true.

I guess that what really made GoW think hard about the nature of our relationship with ND was when they spotted our workers on Bob last turn.

I believe that there is one more possibility - GoW is in fact blackmailing ND, trying to make them cut their ties with us, threatening with war if they keep cooperating. GoW undoubtedly realize that as long as we have one other (major) team on our side, we are in the driver's seat.

quote: Originally posted by lmtoops My opinion, GoW wants to keep ND weak so they can take them in the near future. If Legoland continues to help ND, then ND not stay weak for long, which does not help GoW. So GoW will attack sooner rather than later; either way the attack is coming.

Pretty much agreed here. Perhaps even more than keeping ND weak, GoW wants to somehow check us - they must feel that every turn we are left unchecked, we're widening the gap between us and the rest of the world (we need just 3-4 turns to complete our RR backbone, which will make any invasion of Legos an extremely bloody affair until marines - every turn is important).

quote: Originally posted by lmtoops If war is eminent, we may need to speed up some research (Combustion) and alter from our path (Replacement Parts). All this will be discussed in detail by the team.

The only really tricky part will be acquiring Replaceable Parts. We need Electricity first, which GS may refuse to trade to us. In the long run, they will probably do more harm to ourselves than to us (as they will have to do Ind on their own), but we would have to do Electricity ourselves, which might complicate things in the "main" part of the techtree (our beeline for Combustion).

I believe that for the moment, we shall wait for others. GS shall need Ind for factories (no factories = Hoover useless), so maybe they will contact us on their own, who knows. And if not, we can still try in a couple of turns...

	23-04-2004 11:52									#138
	Tired of ads?

Regular Thursday chat with Zayxus - this time, it is worth reading, I'd say. Aside from working out a deal for The Corporation, we found out that ND shopped for Replaceable Parts elsewhere... I did my best to tell Zayxus we were not happy about it, while not sounding upset.

quote: Session Start: Thu Apr 22 21:09:30 2004 Session Ident: Zayxus Session Ident: Zayxus (~mail4mcmk@p5084AF02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Zayxus: hello vondrack: hi! vondrack: Zayxus, what happened with the dyes I sent to you? vondrack: I sent them accepted 1 turn earlier vondrack: hoping we would avoid the "gap" Zayxus: thank you very much, I got it. Played already the turn. vondrack: but it seems you did not accept them vondrack: only this turn vondrack: have you had any turn WITHOUT our dyes? Zayxus: Cannot remember that. vondrack: nevermind then vondrack: two of our workers will irrigate this turn vondrack: the remaining one will road Zayxus: I so them at Daki vondrack: yep, finishing their assignments around Daki vondrack: before moving on to Esibar Zayxus: it is so surprising peaceful... vondrack: yes... vondrack: Zayxus, do you have Sanitation? Zayxus: Sanitation for hospital? yes. vondrack: is it available for trading? or is it GoW-exclusive? Zayxus: I cannot remember for an trading stop about it. Zayxus: thus it would be awailable. vondrack: I mean - would you be allowed to trade it to us? vondrack: I guess not... vondrack: but I am just asking... Zayxus: Usually such techs are not allowed to be dealed. Zayxus: But I cannot remember about, if it is not allowed to deal it. Zayxus: Probably, GOW would not like such a deal. vondrack: not if it is done before the NDA expires vondrack: I am basically asking about how long the NDA is vondrack: IF there is an NDA set, that is... vondrack: well, no big deal... we will probably trade for it anyway vondrack: is Darekill going to take over? Zayxus: The deals with GOW had no such NDA, as I remember, but sure GOW would not like it. vondrack: understood Zayxus: Darekill is probable still on travel until weekend. I don't know exactly. vondrack: k Zayxus: I could dare to send Legoland the tech Sanitation accepted in exchange for something, but I donnot know what happens in the public relations to GOW. vondrack: nah, no need to go there vondrack: I was just asking about Sanitation... if there was a clear NDA set, it would be ok to trade it to us once the NDA expires. If there is none, we just let it be - souring your relations with GoW is the last thing we need. vondrack: so, just forget I asked about it vondrack: Zayxus - are you going to be interested in prolonging the arrangement with our workers improving your terrain? Zayxus: Yes, prolonging: there is a lot to do, at least for railways. vondrack: will you put together a list of what you'd need from us? vondrack: we do not need those three workers all that much, so we can use them to help you some more Zayxus: all right, I will see. Hope to rmember that list then, too. vondrack: k vondrack: it would be best to designate an area that would be exclusively done by our workers - so that they do not block your workers and vice versa Zayxus: yes, probably Borcem and Esiba vondrack: k Zayxus: Esiba just gets a mine on a hill, hope it was not Lego's job, but Esiba is growing fast. vondrack: we were supposed to road/mined a gold hill N of a mountain near Esiba vondrack: so if you've already done that, just give us a different tile to improve Zayxus: all right, I noticed the list for 870AD. vondrack: Zayxus, do you have any tech deals prearranged with other teams? vondrack: we shall be able to deliver The Corporation & Replaceable Parts within about 4 turns, I believe Zayxus: both? vondrack: either both or any one of them you choose vondrack: we are not going to push you to buy them both vondrack: but they will be available for trade to you vondrack: standard terms Zayxus: Corporation would be fine, because ND expects the R.P. from another side in 2 turns. vondrack: ah, ok vondrack: GS? vondrack: if you cannot tell, just say so Zayxus: better not. vondrack: k vondrack: was it cheaper than from us? Zayxus: No, not at all. vondrack: so - a matter of strategic decision? not to look like too much in the Lego bed? Zayxus: For R.P it was for polical reasons, too. vondrack: understood vondrack: well - as there seems to be very little to discuss today, what about going to bed then? Zayxus: ND could start giving Gold for Tech C. in 2 turns, interested? vondrack: no, that would be too early vondrack: we need to finish R.P. first vondrack: trading The Corporation to you before that would just make it easier for GoW to research it faster vondrack: as I assume they are researching it right now Zayxus: But ND could get the next deal offer soon, and ND could support the research of Legoland by this too. vondrack: ?: But ND could get the next deal offer soon vondrack: like you mean that someone else can trade it to you? Zayxus: If one trade is finished, the next offer from other civs would be possible. Zayxus: ND would like to support Legoland to support researching. vondrack: that sounds good vondrack: we can certainly use some more cash for our research vondrack: let me see Zayxus: yes? vondrack: it's 860AD now, right? Zayxus: yes vondrack: would it be ok if we sent The Corporation in 880AD (so that you would get it in 890AD)? Zayxus: this is 3 turns? vondrack: for us, it's 2 turns - for you, you could say it's 3 turns, yes Zayxus: how many turns is it until the next result of researching of Legoland? vondrack: that's not 100% decided yet vondrack: but either 2t or 3t vondrack: depends on how much we invest into the research Zayxus: divide the Amount of Gold by ND by that number of turns: that could be the Gold/turn by ND. vondrack: well, that would not be necessary - we do have some cash we can use vondrack: you would pay upon delivery only vondrack: it's just that we sort of hoped you would buy R.P. from us, as you said nothing to indicate you would trade with someone else... vondrack: and now you are getting it from somewhere else vondrack: so we are not making any money out of it vondrack: that complicates things a bit Zayxus: ND would pay between 50 and 100 G/T for the next deal. vondrack: next deal = The Corporation or next deal = Refining or Steel? Zayxus: ...from 880AD, for Corporation; ND could not pay it all in one turn, anyway. vondrack: ok, that would be no problem vondrack: we would be happy to take a gpt deal vondrack: btw, can you tell me what turn you are getting R.P.? not where from, just the date... Zayxus: I'm not sure, perhaps in 880AD vondrack: there is no date set? Zayxus: it would be 880AD , if it is not 870AD. Depends on the timing of the other side of the deal. vondrack: ok, so it's no later than in 880AD, right? Zayxus: hope so. some deals are not written. vondrack: k, understood Zayxus: You would see it in the deal screen, right? vondrack: so... what about this: we send you The Corporation in 880AD, you get it in 890AD, and you start paying 60gpt in 890AD - six installments total (15% out of 2400 is 360g). Would that work for you? Zayxus: yes, that would work fine, but ND could start 880AD to pay. Zayxus: also vondrack: I would leave that up to you Zayxus: all right. vondrack: also... what about future tech deals? vondrack: to be honest Zayxus: yes? vondrack: we sort of hoped you would buy all or almost all our techs - that was why the price (15% of the nominal research cost) suggested was so low vondrack: now, if you buy only some of them and shop for others elsewhere vondrack: it's a bit different business than what we have hoped for vondrack: could we at least pre-arrange or pre-discuss deals so that we'd know what you'd be going to be interested in? Zayxus: sorry, I did not see it that way up to now. Zayxus: I did not know it that way. vondrack: nope - we did not state it that way vondrack: I am not blaming you in any way vondrack: just trying to clarify things vondrack: we can live with either way vondrack: you can buy all our techs vondrack: you can pick only some vondrack: just that we'd like to know Zayxus: All right, it is only important to know, how to pay for Legoland continuing. vondrack: ? vondrack: I am not sure I understand Zayxus: ND could pay Gold / Turn all the time without a stop. vondrack: that's not necessary at the moment vondrack: we do have some gold to work with vondrack: it's not a matter of that we would be unable to research or unable to research fast if you pick only some techs vondrack: but it's a matter of an overall gold balance vondrack: of how much we throw into the research vondrack: we can research a bit faster (if there is more gold from you) vondrack: and we can research a bit slower (if there is bit less gold from you - only some techs purchased) vondrack: I am not pushing it either way vondrack: I would just like to know what to expect Zayxus: That is interesting. Perhaps from 880AD ND would spend the Gold for another subject like defense. Zayxus: After Tech Repl.Parts ND is in the state to improve defense rapidly. Zayxus: But it would be expensive. vondrack: Not sure if I expressed myself clear enough... I hope you will keep buying techs from us. But you can either buy every single one ("lot of gold from you") or you can only buy some ("less gold from you") vondrack: depending on what you choose vondrack: we will need to adjust our research pace slightly vondrack: nothing major, a turn here or there vondrack: but certainly, if we are only able to sell every other tech to you, we will have to consider that vondrack: and make sure we do not run on a deficit budget for too long Zayxus: All right. For the next time that would be fine. vondrack: ok, great * Zayxus assumes, he was in a hurry to get Repl.Parts. vondrack: I understand - R.P. is extremely important vondrack: why do you think we made this detour for R.P. ourselves vondrack: which tech you would prefer after The Corporation? Zayxus: Oil or steal. vondrack: well, yes, oil or steel, that for sure - but which one? vondrack: I am not saying we would go for the one you prefer, but it would be fine to know Zayxus: could be oil first. vondrack: k vondrack: I will keep that in mind vondrack: frankly, I would also pick Refining vondrack: it's an important tech, too Zayxus: would be nice to know, where oil is. vondrack: true vondrack: alright... I guess that's it for today: vondrack: we've worked out The Corporation deal vondrack: you will prepare a list of what our workers could do for you vondrack: and we will consider going for Refining once completing the R.P. research vondrack: hoping you would buy Refining from us once it's discovered vondrack: ok? Zayxus: yes. vondrack: fine vondrack: so, then... good night! * Zayxus wrote a notice. vondrack: and see you next Thursday Zayxus: yes, good night vondrack: bye Zayxus: bye Session Close: Thu Apr 22 22:48:07 2004

	23-04-2004 15:02									#139
	Put an end to popups!

quote: vondrack: well - as there seems to be very little to discuss today, what about going to bed then?

I thought we were happy to sell techs and sell the services of our workers but this is going a little too far surely.....

	23-04-2004 19:23									#141
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd like to see an official statement from the ND team whether they accept to buy every single mandatory tech from us, or if they prefer to be window-shopping among all three main teams.

It would help us adjust our prices, but also our attitude toward them. It seems at least one other team had the same idea than us (buy ND's cooperation with techs), and it makes them technologically advanced. I mean, they have the sanitation that we don't, and they will have R.P. before us.

If ND has an opportunity to have such a double love affair, they'll take it without a doubt, as it favors them hugely. The best situation is that they have a single love affair (with us), but if they don't, we have to know exactly that they stop considering us as their unique tech partner.

	23-04-2004 20:24									#142
	Increase Your PM Length

I believe we can take it for granted that ND prefers to have a 'looser' and more flexible relationship, at least as far as buying our techs is concerned. From one of my previous chats with Zayxus, I got the feeling that ND was under a pressure from GoW to not cooperate with us too much (to an extent of being a target of GoW's attack, if not complying). They even postponed agreeing to our research pact proposal in order to soothe GoW (I will have to dig that chat up - dunno if I posted it or not, but it seems not).

EDIT: it's the last but one chat - just scroll up a bit and there it is.

	23-04-2004 20:31									#143
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think the chat is enough of an official statement.

I don't think this changes our overall policy toward ND. We still need to support them, because they could sway the balance of power on Bob. ND is our only chance at avoiding a World War where Legoland has no ally.

If we continously provide help to ND, then maybe then can get strong and challenge GoW for Bob supremecy. Also, this will help kep GS off of Bob.

If all 3 civs ally against us, our support of ND may(?) help us. Not sure about this.

	27-04-2004 12:10									#144
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I have to admit this is quite a pleasant surprise:

quote: Hello vondrack! Some members of ND would welcome to deal Sanitation with Legoland, what would be the offer of Legoland? [The forum of ND is still alive ] Best Regards Zayxus As Diplomat of Neu Demogyptica

Now, it's obvious ND will make the original discoverer (GoW, most likely) upset by dealing Sanitation to us, no doubt about that... but if we actually delay the delivery by ~10 turns (we are not hard-pressed for hospitals yet), it may even go through largely unnoticed. And even if GoW gets upset, who cares... as long as ND sticks with us, we are fine - I am sometimes thinking that our huge industrial potential would be best used in a war - it would be there where it would shine best; but that's heresy for a builder, is it not?

What do we offer for Sanitation? All I can think of is gold (waiving gold payments for our techs) and worker jobs. Anyone having a better idea? Perhaps a settler or two (like we build a settler, found a city on Bob for ND, and immediately hand it over to them - we could also use that moment to trade them workers)?

	27-04-2004 18:44									#145
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If they're selling, I think we should buy Gold is probably what they'd be most intersted in, though some labor may tempt them as well...

	27-04-2004 18:45									#146
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Good News!!

Gold, workers, worker jobs, settlers....they all sound good to me. We could also rush build a city improvement (which is cheaper to us because of our traits) in the gifted city.

	27-04-2004 20:32									#147
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Gold and worker jobs should do the trick.

I think ND will prefer worker jobs over worker gifts, because one worker job is worth 6 worker gifts*

I don't think we should wait 10 turns. It is a long time, and ND may change its mind by then. Especially if they are further pushed by GoW to cooperate as little as possible with us. But indeed, we should ask them to absolutely make sure this trade won't hurt their diplomatic relationships.

I don't think we should found cities for them. It is a pain to bring settlers with boats, they'll found their cities faster than us. Even if we found cities for them, I don't think we should rush any building in there: it could be destroyed when the city changes hands, which will be a waste - and we pay exactly as much as them to rush a building (4 gold per shield).

*we are industrious under democracy, and employ national workers. If we give them workers, they'll become slaves employed by a non-industrious nation. Furthermore, if ND is under democracy, slaves do not benefit from the democracy bonus. The calculation is: 2x slower (non ind.) * 2x slower (slave) * 1.5x slower (no democracy bonus) = 6 times slower.

	28-04-2004 00:45									#148
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Very true Spiffor, just throwing out all possibilities.

As far as gifted workers, they are much slower but they continue to give for a lifetime. Of course, I agree that they should prefer worker jobs.

So basicly, I'm agreeing with you on all points, but continue to argue anyway.

	28-04-2004 06:06									#149
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I agree with Spiffor, let's offer them labor and gold. That should be enough. And trade as soon as the deal is signed, no reason to delay. They wouldn't have offered it if they wanted to wait 10 turns anyway.

	28-04-2004 22:46									#150
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OK, I finally have some time to work on this. First, few more PMs that were exchanged between me & Zayxus:

This one was a follow-up to our chat last Thursday. I asked Zayxus what kind of terrain improvements they'd like us to do for them once we are done with the current contract. Here is Zayxus' response:

quote: Hello vondrack! 1) Workers The List of possible actions of Workers of Legoland: 1 Borcem: Hill: w 2 Borcem: Hill: nw 3 Borcem: Hill: n 4 Borcem: Hill: s-se 5 Essiba: Hill: n 6 Mavsu: Hill: e 7 Mavsu: Hill: nw-nw 8 Mavsu: Hill: n-nw 9 Mavsu: Hill: n-ne Mines and Roads and Railways each. Perhaps some are already done or in older list. 2) Technology This turn you should get 60 G (sum 60 of 360) for Tech Corporation. Best regards, Zayxus As Diplomat of Neu Demogyptica

I was not 100% sure whether he meant worker jobs available after we finish the last tile near Daki this turn or jobs available after we finish the whole contract few turns later (we still have a couple of tiles to do around Esiba) and responded to make sure there was no misunderstanding. Zayxus responded as follows:

quote: Hello vondrack! The List could be of what could be done after the older list. But if you like, you could mix the single tasks. About the deal: We don't have to tell anyone, wether you researched the tech or got it elsewhere. There is no none -20turn-trade-agreement. Best Regards Zayxus