14-05-2003 03:46									#331
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Ok, here's exactly what I want to send. Though should I ask about a meeting between our leader's now?

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Hi Kentonio

Here's a draft of the NAT. I included a border proposal since you had expressed interest in one in our chat. We are hoping that Morris can continue on his way, if he hasn't already, with the submition of this proposal.

I'm happy to say that our leaders NotYouEither and Vondrack would like to invite you to chat to meet privately with you to have a "summit" between Apolytonia and Elucidia about our nations and our futures. Please let me know when you are free and I will try to set up the chat between you.

Again, I want to express my pleasure that our teams can work together now, and put all that other stuff in the past behind us.

BigFree
Ambassador of the Apolyton Nation


Here's the Treaty:

quote: Apolyton and Elucidia both agree that there shall be peace between our nations and sign this agreement with the intention of maintaining friendly and beneficial relations. Both parties hereby promise: Not to commit any hostile acts for the duration of this agreement. Hostile acts include, but are not limited to: Attacking, capturing a worker, entering cultural borders without permission, remaining inside cultural borders without permission, pillaging a road or improvements. CDG will allow the warrior BigFree to travel north through their cultural territory back to Apolyton. CDG shall tell Apolyton the exact path that BigFree shall take, and shall not block this path. Apolyton shall move BigFree in accordance with the instructions given by CDG. Apolyton and Elucidia agree to not having any units closer than 3 tiles from the outside each other's cultural borders, except where expressly permitted by the other team. Any violation of this treaty by one party allows the other party to void the treaty and report the offending party to the UN. This treaty shall last 30 turns after it is ratified by both parties.

Edited to include Togas's and Vondrack's reccomendations.

	14-05-2003 03:59									#332
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Remove this part:

quote: Originally posted by BigFree A seperate proposal for a deal deal will follow shortly. Something along the lines of Map Making for Mathematics and Philosophy; just to give you an idea.

Include:

I'm happy to say that our leaders NotYouEither and Vondrack would like to invite you to chat to meet privately with you to have a "summit" between Apolytonia and Elucidia about our nations and our futures. Please let me know when you are free and I will try to set up the chat between you.


--Togas

	14-05-2003 04:01									#333
	Put an end to popups!

Done deal boss.

	15-05-2003 05:49									#334
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CDG has sent some questions regarding the NAT.

quote: From: Louis XXIV To: bigfree Posted: Wed May 14, 2003 2:29 pm PST Subject: Re: NAT I have a few questions about the NAT -Is the 5 square settling line still in place (The one that existed previously?) -Would the 3 square border apply if you are within the 5-square settler line (see above)? -Is this 3-square border a "radius" or a "line"? (A radius is like the cultural radius, a line is what we have for the 5 square settler line, it stretches across) I was wondering if a permenant boundary (one that won't change) is still a possibility. It would probably be the 5 square line, but negotiation is always welcome (of course) Hope we can these questions understood and details hammered out on this treaty. Sincerely Louis XXIV Elucidian Foreign Advisor

	15-05-2003 06:08									#335
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Here's a possible response:

quote: I have a few questions about the NAT -Is the 5 square settling line still in place (The one that existed previously?)

We'd rather not have a Settlement line, but if your team is more comforatable with having one, then we'd like to see the Settling line extended to 6 tiles; a junture that is exactly half way between us (if there needs to be one at all.) We'll leave the choice to your team on this.

quote: -Would the 3 square border apply if you are within the 5-square settler line (see above)?

Yes, There would be no settling farther than the (new)6 tile line we (may) set and then no units can come closer than 3 tiles to either teams cultural borders.

quote: -Is this 3-square border a "radius" or a "line"? (A radius is like the cultural radius, a line is what we have for the 5 square settler line, it stretches across)

It is a radius; as no units can come closer than 3 tiles from any direction to the other teams cultural border's. Units are allowed beyond the settlement line, but must not be able to enter other party's territory in less than 3 turns (1-tile/turn movement assumed)

quote: I was wondering if a permenant boundary (one that won't change) is still a possibility. It would probably be the 5 square line, but negotiation is always welcome (of course)

We are not comforatable with a permanent border as of yet. There are still many unknowns on this landmass. We'd like to be able to weigh our options in the future once some of those variables come to be known.

I hope this is not a major problem for your team.

quote: Hope we can these questions understood and details hammered out on this treaty.

We understand and appreciate the cooperation we are recieving form you guys; it sure is a breath of fresh air!

	15-05-2003 08:43									#336
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Looks pretty good, BigFree. Let's keep the settlement line out. Vondrack pointed out that one of the cities we'd build in the south west would be in violation of that line.

It's a 3 square radius.

Good answer on the border question. It's too early for permanent borders to be decided.

--Togas

	15-05-2003 08:55									#337
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I think we should offer a 6 tile arangement, so that they feel comforatable for now.

So I'd say in response to the question about the 5 tile line:
"As we don't want to lock ourselves into any border permenantly, we'd like to see the Settling line be extended to 6 tiles(right in the middle of us) if we are to have one at all."

	15-05-2003 09:00									#338
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No permanent borders. They'll know where our borders are when they butt up against their own.

Are they afraid of a REX challenge with 'Poly?

	15-05-2003 09:01									#339
	Got spare money?

I believe a 6 tile line would not hinder our immediate city planning. Let's pass it by the Consuls to make sure, though, before we agree to it.

--Togas

	15-05-2003 09:01									#340
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AND ....

Offer to sell them Ceremonial Burial for 25g.

--Togas

	15-05-2003 09:11									#341
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Sure, I'll send that with the Tech proposal.

	15-05-2003 09:19									#342
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I'm still not sold on the Tech Proposal. I'd like to hear more debate from the team about it. Even with the penalty round after 20 turns, we may have to stop our research for many turns (especially if we want to rush to Republic) and wait for them to get Philosphy.

Please send the offer to sell Ceremonial Burial with the email response to their NAP questions, as it's a quick deal of it's own, and doesn't need to be delayed or tied up with any other deal

--Togas

	15-05-2003 09:30									#343
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We go on to CoL(10) after MM(12), don't we? It should take us 12-14 turns to get that done. So I don't think we'd have to wait that long on Philosphy(6) before we started on Republic. Plus if they agree to it, then we get the gold if they lag.

What's the harm in sending the deal? We have to research what we have to research regardless of what they do.

If they drag their feet on Philosophy, then we have to research it; that happens even if we don't have a tech deal with them. But if we do have a deal, then at least we get some gpt if they fail to provide it in a timely manner.

What's the benefit of waiting to propose this?

	15-05-2003 09:54									#344
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AFAIK, our next tech shall be HBR, unless we are able to get it together with resale right somewhere else. We are supposed to trade MM+HBR for Myst+Poly with GCA.

	15-05-2003 10:55									#345
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack AFAIK, our next tech shall be HBR, unless we are able to get it together with resale right somewhere else. We are supposed to trade MM+HBR for Myst+Poly with GCA.

Well heck, we have plenty of time then for either CDG to come through or for us to do it ourselves, I still see no reason not to submit it to CDG as is.

	15-05-2003 11:31									#346
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quote: Originally posted by Togas AND .... Offer to sell them Ceremonial Burial for 25g. --Togas

hi ,

aint that a bit low for CB , .....


have a nice day

	15-05-2003 11:47									#347
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I agree there. Try to get a bit more out of it. Every gold piece that they have to pay us is not spent on warrior upgrades... (not on their side, that is)

	15-05-2003 15:20									#348
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Well, as for the CB price...

Would WE buy it for 25g or even more? With the nominal research cost of 48 beakers (=gold), now even cheaper? When we talked to GCA about buying CB, we were looking for like 20g. So I would either start on 25g (max), happily going down to 20, even 15 or 10... OR - and that would actually be my preference - offer it and ask them what they'd be willing to pay or trade for it.

Remember the situation with Alphabet and CFC? They said they had only 20g to spend on Alphabet. We said it was too little for such a valuable tech and did not go for it. Within 2 turns, CFC acquired Alphabet somewhere else (quite likely using our offer to press the seller a bit). If we sold it for 20g they sort of offered, we would be 20g richer now and they'd think they made a great, fast deal with Apolyton... instead, we let them get it from another source. With "obsolete" techs available from multiple sources, I guess getting at least something, even if it is just few gold pieces and an improvement in mutual relations, is better than "helping the world keep the right prices", getting nothing.

	15-05-2003 16:06									#349
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Oftentimes, people will offer you more than you expect to get yourself if you let them. Ask them what they'd be willing to give us for it. If it's less than 25, we can always accept or ask for that after.

	15-05-2003 21:51									#350
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Well, as for the CB price... Would WE buy it for 25g or even more? With the nominal research cost of 48 beakers (=gold), now even cheaper? When we talked to GCA about buying CB, we were looking for like 20g. So I would either start on 25g (max), happily going down to 20, even 15 or 10... OR - and that would actually be my preference - offer it and ask them what they'd be willing to pay or trade for it. Remember the situation with Alphabet and CFC? They said they had only 20g to spend on Alphabet. We said it was too little for such a valuable tech and did not go for it. Within 2 turns, CFC acquired Alphabet somewhere else (quite likely using our offer to press the seller a bit). If we sold it for 20g they sort of offered, we would be 20g richer now and they'd think they made a great, fast deal with Apolyton... instead, we let them get it from another source. With "obsolete" techs available from multiple sources, I guess getting at least something, even if it is just few gold pieces and an improvement in mutual relations, is better than "helping the world keep the right prices", getting nothing.

hi ,

well if they dont like it , fine , then they should not be getting it from us , ......

a trade might be intresting , .... lets see , what do they have that we want , ......

in any way , if we are talking gold we should get 25 plus one or two at least a turn for 20 turns , .....

25 25
+ 20 + 40
-------- -------
= 45 = 65

have a nice day

	15-05-2003 23:21									#351
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , well if they dont like it , fine , then they should not be getting it from us , ...... a trade might be intresting , .... lets see , what do they have that we want , ...... in any way , if we are talking gold we should get 25 plus one or two at least a turn for 20 turns , ..... 25 25 + 20 + 40 -------- ------- = 45 = 65 have a nice day

You're crazy panag, it's not even close to worth that much. Not even the AI on Chieftain would offer you that much.

	15-05-2003 23:38									#352
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The point is: Let's ask them what they want to give for it. It might be more than 20 gold.

	15-05-2003 23:41									#353
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We'll certainly ask them "how much?"; just don't expect the moon!

	15-05-2003 23:42									#354
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster The point is: Let's ask them what they want to give for it. It might be more than 20 gold.

Agreed. Let's offer it to CDG and send them a note along asking if they're interested in trading and what their offer is.

I am going to add it to the turn plan.

	15-05-2003 23:54									#355
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That works for me.

--Togas

	16-05-2003 03:35									#356
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree You're crazy panag, it's not even close to worth that much. Not even the AI on Chieftain would offer you that much.

hi ,

so , .....

are we going to go soft , .....

we should set up a prize , a high prize , if they dont like it , fine , they can go somewhere else , ......

afterall the can start to build them temples , to keep people happy and expand with culture , .....

pfffff , if they want to waste time to research it , fine , we should not do them any favors , we dont get to many gifts our way neither afterall , ..... (!)

25 is to low , ....

have a nice day

	16-05-2003 04:04									#357
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The problem is that they will undoubtedly find another source to acquire CB from.

	16-05-2003 04:20									#358
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster The problem is that they will undoubtedly find another source to acquire CB from.

hi ,

fine let them , .... we name our prize , they dont like it , fine , they go somewhere else , ......

we should not be asking the ones who need the tech "what are you willing to pay for it" , ... they wont do the same with us , ....

we are way to good

have a nice day

	16-05-2003 04:23									#359
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Dealing is not easy, its actually an art. You have to offer a high enough price for it to be acceptable to you but low enough not to offend them. It has to be higher though because it is natural to expect them to possibly reject the initial deal, not because they don't find it fair but because they see it as a chance to get a lower price. Thus, despite economic theory which says that bartering will lead to an equilibrium point, this is not true since you assume people are perfect negotiators, which they are not.

So, honestly 65 is an absurdly high price. Anything over 30 is ridiculous. I would to 25 and drop it in 5 turn increments.

(hooray, I'm back! thank you BH!)

	16-05-2003 04:28									#360
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The point here is that it's a buyer's market for CB. If everyone but CDG has the tech, then CDG can afford to shop around and name its own price. They will buy the tech; the question is, will it be from Apolyton? Consider these two simple possibilities.

1) We sell CDG the tech. We get some money, relations improve between the two teams, and importantly, *another team does not receive the money*!

2) CDG buys the tech from someone else. We get no money, relations stay still, and another team gets the money.

The only reason why we shouldn't try selling CDG the tech is if they manage to buy it from us for a price lower than if we weren't willing to sell, meaning that they benefit. Since the tech is hardly going to sell for much anyway, I doubt that they'd save any more than a few gold.

Do we really hate CDG so much that we'd harm our position just so that they *might* have to pay a few gold more?