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WhiteBandit
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Southern California
Jul 2002
time: 21:26
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MZ has a great point. Also, he left out one thing.
For those interested in the Brazilian Women's Soccer team . . .
(NOT SAFE FOR WORK or UNDER 18! :P)
So... [URL=tsk, tsk, tsk[/URL]
/Edit. Ming is not the only one who can edit things around here, and it is best if we do not abuse the privilege of this private forum. nye
Last edited by notyoueither on 12-05-2003 at 12:42
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Adrian Hon
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Living in Perplex City
Nov 2001
time: 05:26
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NYE: They'd feel uncomfortable *precisely* because there's nothing to see - no real defensive or offensive forces yet. How would you feel if there were two warriors lurking a couple of squares from Apolyton's border? We're getting uncomfortable with just a single CDG warrior on an iron, and while that's obviously not on, I think they're just trying to make a point - that they're just as uncomfortable with our warriors sitting right next to them.
A useful analogy is that of the whole privacy argument. There are those in the govt (and in this case, Apolyton) who think it's perfectly fine to snoop around our computers looking for pirated material - after all, if you have nothing to hide, why would you be worried? But if you turn the tables and suggest that the snooping should be reciprocal, then the govt (and Apolyton) gets all flustered.
So, I agree with BigFree. We need to make some concessions to make them move; they don't pose a threat at the moment and I feel that with our NMs and four (soon to be five) cities, iron deposits and plenty of space, we are in a strong position and can afford to bide our time.
Edit: I should probably point out that I am just as concerned as anyone else about CDG's 0% research; it does indicate that they intend to build up their military. However, we should consider all the possible reasons for this; perhaps they're worried about an alliance between us and CFC.
I advocate Apolyton having a strong military and well patrolled borders - but I don't think that we should go to war over a single warrior sitting on an iron.
Last edited by Adrian Hon on 12-05-2003 at 16:20
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Good point, Adrian Hon.
I would also like to point out that we generally consider it as "given" that "CDG is at 0% research". However theoretical that may sound, we should keep in mind that the precise, accurate statement is: "We saw CDG on 0% research for one turn." Nothing else - everything else is our assumption, not a verified fact. If they say they are researching, they may be lying and they may be not (last time we believed they lied about their research... were we right?). They may have been waiting for a deal to be negotiated, to be able to properly choose their next research goal. They may have been gathering gold for a limited number of upgrades (are we going to set our research to 0% after finishing MM because of planning to attack CDG? nope - because of building us a sizeable force appropriate for DEFENSE).
Another thing I would like to stress - at the moment, Morris' presence is offending just because we perceive it as breaking UNWRITTEN rules of conduct (which CDG does not seem to know, honor, or respect - remember all the fuss about letting W2 'Bigfree' move past their territory). ATM, Morris does no harm and does not hamper our plans in ANY way. So asking CDG to move him immediately is pretty much the same as if THEY asked us to remove our warrior screen. Once Morris actually starts (or is about to start) standing in our way, the situation will change - and that will happen once we build our iron city, since he will then be blocking the best tile of that city.
Once that happens, CDG will happen to be in quite a different position - they will be INSIDE our cultural borders, actually doing harm to our economy (the iron tile will be the best one to work in the beginning). THAT will be the moment to tell them: 'ok, guys, you talk peace all the time. If you mean it, then leave peacefully now, please. If you do not, we have no choice but to consider it an act of aggression, just like you would consider an act of agression if we did the same to you.'
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
Oh my, an underling speaking out? How brash.
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My my, the person complaining that he is not allowed to start certain threads now implies that underlings are also not allowed to speak out and criticize something that he feels is wrong with the team. Don't you think you're falling into the same trap you're trying to get out of? FYI al 80+ members here are entitled to voice their opinions, regardless of whether they are a consul or minister, and frankly, I am not too proud of how the MoW and FAM have lately behaved towards one another. Being a FAM member I take this as a matter which directly affects our line of work as MoW-FAM relations are of vital importance.
quote:
So now I'm not allowed to start certain threads? Gee whiz, I thought Togas was the one to make the official recommendation and the consuls to make the decision, but now opinions and any form of initiative is looked down upon for fear of toes being "stepped on."
Oh right, I forgot, I'm trying to take over. Silly me. Every thread I post or comment I make is immediately me trying to assume control.
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No one said you are not allowedto post ideas which are not related to the MoW. Personally I don't as I have also posted threads not related to the FAM either. What I am saying is that some people might feel that you are stepping on their toes which perhaps is the reason for such backslash. In case you forgot, I do not apporove of the way Togas has treated you lately as it has been far from tactful and I openly expressed so in my post. Of course you didn't quote that part because I assume that's the only part you agree with.
Now, again, get over it (both of you), and let's get back to kicking CDG butt.
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
Please note that's not a slam on MoI- I think I've learned more watching him than I have from anyone in a long time. Not so the two offices which apparently seem to be at odds with each other.
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Woo-hoo, a vote of confidence, from Fried-Psitalon! Thanks dude (now I've got to get crackin'!).
Concerning conflicts between MoW and FAM: ideally it would be best if these two could get along. But as long as they agree on policy, there is no need for them to really like each other. The way I see it is this:
The FAM and his diplomats are in control of diplomatic channels, meaning they basically have the final say in our relationship with other teams (this means the ability to declare war, etc.). This is, of course, subject to the input of the Consuls and Citizens. The MoW, on the other hand, takes care of military concerns in response to the decisions made by the FAM. If the MoW wants to mess with diplomatic stuff, he does so as a Citizen. At the lowest level, the MoI implements the recommendations from the MoW (and also takes care of the general economic well-being).
The starting of threads is a touchy issue. I know I've been a little peeved off when some have started economic threads without my knowledge (sometimes in competition with what I had been working on myself). But what we have to remember is that this is a forum and a democracy game: the whole point is discuss. Therefore, apart from the official topped threads, I think it's ok for anyone to start any thread on any topic. We just have to remember that anything discussed in these threads will have to go through the Consuls and Ministers (and polls) before it is made official policy.
Dominae
Last edited by Dominae on 12-05-2003 at 20:34
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Dominae
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Another point/clarification:
The MoW should not be diplomat to any team, nor should he (or she) be the lead in any diplomatic effort. Trip's input is of course very welcome on any diplomatic issue, but having out Minister of War negotiating with other teams is more than a bit odd.
Dominae
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
My my, the person complaining that he is not allowed to start certain threads now implies that underlings are also not allowed to speak out and criticize something that he feels is wrong with the team. Don't you think you're falling into the same trap you're trying to get out of? FYI al 80+ members here are entitled to voice their opinions, regardless of whether they are a consul or minister, and frankly, I am not too proud of how the MoW and FAM have lately behaved towards one another. Being a FAM member I take this as a matter which directly affects our line of work as MoW-FAM relations are of vital importance. |
Actually I was imitating Togas' most recent post in which he emphasized that "underlings" shouldn't be in charge of such important matters.
quote:
No one said you are not allowedto post ideas which are not related to the MoW. Personally I don't as I have also posted threads not related to the FAM either. What I am saying is that some people might feel that you are stepping on their toes which perhaps is the reason for such backslash. In case you forgot, I do not apporove of the way Togas has treated you lately as it has been far from tactful and I openly expressed so in my post. Of course you didn't quote that part because I assume that's the only part you agree with.
Now, again, get over it (both of you), and let's get back to kicking CDG butt. |
I don't care what people feel about what I do. I'm not here to win a popularity contest. I'm not here to make sure everyone is right as rain. I'm not here to prance through PR to make sure everyone's a happy camper and that everyone is "in their place."
I started a thread about an idea which came up in the chatroom from someone (note: I'm not even trying to take credit for it) came up with, and we all refined. No such idea had been posted elsewhere, and I'm not going to wait for someone else to post it so that they don't throw a hissy fit. I didn't even do anything... I posted a THREAD. So what people are advocating to me to help solve this "problem" is that I stop posting threads, since that's all I did. And the whole thing wouldn't have been an issue if it hadn't been me that posted the thread, since Togas is so paranoid about me taking over his job and the team.
I didn't comment on your part to Togas because it wasn't addressed to me, and wasn't for me to respond to.
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
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Just for general clarification purposes...
I was not trying to advocate that I should be the one to talk with CDG. I felt that someone who was close to CDG and hadn't had any problems discussing with them like NYE or myself would be best for the plan I proposed. People can modify that plan as they want, which may change the criteria for the person who is to talk with CDG. My concern is about the diplomatic progress and repercussions of our actions. Not who gets to do what, when and why. As long as the job gets done and done well, I don't care who does it or how.
Another thing...
I simply will not curtail my activity here to prevent 'toes being stepped on.' As I said in my previous post, I'm not here to win popularity contests. I'm here to get things done and make sure we win. It is the job of the MOW and FAM and MOI to advise the consuls for a decision. If they are unable to handle that responsibility, then perhaps they should find another place in the team. If Zen wanted to start a thread about us moving our Warrior Screen to another location I wouldn't care. Everyone has a right to post a thread, and it's not the concern of the members of this team to make sure that some people don't get upset by this sort of thing. I know that in the end it's up to me to advise the consuls on which actions to take, and the consuls to decide what to do. Aside from that, there's nothing wrong with posting threads, suggesting ideas or making plans.
If anyone sees any flaws in this policy, I invite them to point them out to me so that I can comment or correct them.
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:26
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quote:
Re the tech trade we talked of the other night we would be happy to participate. The only slight problem may be with the Mysicism part of the maths/myst deal from us. If it does prove to be a problem we can replace it with a slightly higher value tech.
Re the other stuff, we look forward to removing Morris from your territory as soon as possible. Is there any positive word on a formal border between us yet that would enable us to do so?
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Now do you believe me that CDG only wants a border agreement?  They felt they could use Morris as a bargaining chip, though we will not allow it, it is within the realm of acceptability that they would try. When we build IronCity they will leave, I have no doubts about that. I will send a side not along with the NAP that we, as a team, are not favorable to a border agreement just yet and that it shouldn't be taken as a act of aggresion that we don't want one. I should also note to them that we are aware that the reason they'd like on is to get our Warrios near their territory to back off a bit. I'll let them know if they have problems with the position of our Warriors, ie, they are in the way of a future settlement, to please let us know and we'll move our units accordingly.
What if we both agreed to keep units at least 2 tiles away from all cultural boarders as well as what we have previously agreed to?
As far as the Tech trade is concerned, I don't remeber ever mentioning Myst as a part of the deal. I suggested HBR, IIRC. I'll send the tech propoasal along that reads we give MM(12) and they give Math+HBR(8+5); since the "owe" us a point anyways.
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:26
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Proposed Non-Agression Treaty to CDG
quote:
Apolyton and Elucidia both agree that there shall be peace between our nations and sign this agreement with the intention of maintaining friendly and beneficial relations.
Both parties hereby promise:
Not to commit any hostile acts for the duration of this agreement.
Hostile acts include, but are not limited to: Attacking, capturing a worker, entering cultural borders without permission, remaining inside cultural borders without permission, pillaging a road or improvements.
CDG will allow the warrior BigFree to travel north through their cultural territory back to Apolyton. CDG shall tell Apolyton the exact path that BigFree shall take, and shall not block this path. Apolyton shall move BigFree in accordance with the instructions given by CDG.
Apolyton and Elucidia agree to not having any units closer than 3 tiles from the outside each other's cultural borders, except where expressly permitted by the other team.
Any violation of this treaty by one party allows the other party to void the treaty and report the offending party to the UN.
This treaty shall last 30 turns after it is ratified by both parties.
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P.S. The 3 tile buffer is our offer for some sort of border agreement to help get them to move Morris a bit sooner. The 30 turns allows us more time to prepare in case CDG is planning to get nasty with us; the extra 10 turns helps us more than it would help them.
Proposed Tech Trade Agreement with CDG
quote:
Apolyton will give Elucidia Map Making while Elucidia gives Apolyton Mathematics and Philosophy.
Upon completion of the technology that each team is responsible for, the team will offer the said technology to the other team on the turn it is made available to them. This offer will be remade each and every turn thereafter until the other team aquires their required technology for the trade and offer's it in return.
Each team should complete their research by the 20th turn after this agreement is ratified by both parties. If research is completed by one party and not the other, the party that has not completed it's research shall have to pay 3 gold per turn until the techs are aquired. Proof of aquiring techs shall be made when they are offered to the other team.
Each team will make progress reports to the other team as to when the technologies will be researched and at what turn number they will be completed on.
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Edited in accordance with H_E's recomendations.
Last edited by BigFree on 13-05-2003 at 11:17
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
Oh my, an underling speaking out? How brash.
So now I'm not allowed to start certain threads? Gee whiz, I thought Togas was the one to make the official recommendation and the consuls to make the decision, but now opinions and any form of initiative is looked down upon for fear of toes being "stepped on."
Oh right, I forgot, I'm trying to take over. Silly me. Every thread I post or comment I make is immediately me trying to assume control.
As soon as he learns that I'm not out to get him and his job with every move I make. |
hi ,
what you also , ....
hey , stand in line , .... according to some there are some who like you , nye and vondrack all people who actually are helping this game who try to rule and dictate the game on the terms they like , .....
*cough*
what a bunch on nonsense , .....
dont bother , .... if you get critic you ought to be doing something right , ... 
as for the rest , .... should we not be carefull as to what we give them , .... like extremely carefull , .....
have a nice day
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12-05-2003 12:18
my specialties are revealed in the titles of my articles, found elsewhere.
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