27-03-2003 02:25									#181
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I like it nice and too the point without too much diplomatic speak

	27-03-2003 03:07									#182
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For the consideration of Togas and BF.

re Kentonio's recent message. I would respond along these lines.

GCA's request for us to return North is not binding on us. We intend to continue as was planned and go South. That is in accord with the NAP.

We are in the process of vacating your territory, which we might point out, we did not enter. Rather, it enveloped us with the founding of your city.

	27-03-2003 03:11									#183
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Here's a PM form kentonio of CDG on 26 March
------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote: Official request to Apolytonia CDG would like an immediate explanation from Apolyton as to the movements of the warrior you have within our territory. As you know re the NAPP agreement that warrior was not to return through our lands after meeting GC. As GC have refused you passage through their lands I agreed as a gesture of friendship to allow the warrior to return through our territory. The instruction I passed to you through Lucky was to move DIRECTLY north back towards Apolytonia. Having recieved the game save I see your nation has unwisely decided to move further into our lands. Not only does this breach the NAPP agreement but suggests hostile intentions. We ask for an immediate explanation of this action and formally express our displeasure with it. Kentonio President of Elucidia

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a proposed draft of our reply to CDG
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Greetings from Apolyton

We here at Apolyton are somewhat bemused by your accusation that we are in violation of our Non-Aggression Pact.

The agreement clearly states: “'he shall not re-trace his steps' and 'Any attempt by CDG to block the warrior BigFree’s movement will be seen as a hostile act and a violation of the Non-Aggression Pact.'”

Since we are in fact trying to scout South, as the terms of the agreement state: “’The warrior BigFree shall remain in place until turn 23, and at that time he may move south’”; we feel that we are not in violation.

We are sincerely just exercising our rights to explore unclaimed land, while keeping to the agreement between our Civilizations.

BigFree
Apolyton Ambassador

ed:sp

	27-03-2003 03:24									#184
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It could be possible that CDG and GCA are looking to use WBigFree's southward progress as an excuse to gang up on us. Not to be too paranoid

I am sure they both just want to prevent us getting contact with CFC.

If only we could use the excuse "WBigfree has an acute phobia of goats and we are unable to stop him fleeing south from your trained killer goats."

	27-03-2003 03:29									#185
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Yes, our agreement with GCA was non-binding, and they engulfed us with a new city rather than us moving into their borders. If they want a war with us, they'll have one no matter what. If this is the excuse they want to use, there won't be much we can do about it.

	27-03-2003 03:32									#186
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I think the proposed draft is mostly fine, although the sentence:

"Our team is wondering if you are truly interested in cooperating with us or are you more interested in seeing conflicts."

is, IMO, overly belligerant. It might be a reasonable thing to wonder, but I don't think it's a diplomatic thing to say, even if they are clearly in the wrong. Even mentioning the word 'conflict' will put worrying ideas into their heads.

	27-03-2003 03:36									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Adrian Hon I think the proposed draft is mostly fine, although the sentence: "Our team is wondering if you are truly interested in cooperating with us or are you more interested in seeing conflicts." is, IMO, overly belligerant. It might be a reasonable thing to wonder, but I don't think it's a diplomatic thing to say, even if they are clearly in the wrong. Even mentioning the word 'conflict' will put worrying ideas into their heads.

Good call; it will be taken out!

	27-03-2003 03:38									#188
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As if their message wasn't belligerent too...

But we best not stoop as low as they

-MZ

	27-03-2003 04:01									#189
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Here's the way I see it:

CDG agreed to a NAP with us that included our staying put for 2 turns. While saying that we could scout South of GCA only. This gave them the time to move a settler down to plant a town right where they would be able to say what they are now saying, "You are in our territory, go back North."

CDG planned this whole thing, maybe along with GCA from the very begining or sometime shortly after we found the borders for GCA.

Our goal is to continue South no matter what, right?

So our response should be along those lines, not anything that would allude to us going anywhere else but South of GCA.

We backed off the last time they threatened us; this time we have a NAP with them and it is clear that it reads in our favor in this case. We need to stand solidly behind this NAP and tell CDG bluntly that we will be going South. That's it.

	27-03-2003 04:14									#190
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Agreed. CDG's recent behaviour leads me to suggest two possibilities:

1) After they were successful in forcing us to keep our warrior still for two turns, they think that they can force further concessions from us. They are well aware that the NAP states we should be moving south, but they either believe we won't spot that, or that we are too intimidated to bring it up.

2) They are completely incompetent and have failed to read the NAP properly.

I think the second possibility is pretty unlikely; surely they can't be that dumb? (that's a rhetorical question). The first possibility is much more likely, which poses a few interesting questions. Namely, are they acting in the same way to GCA, and how they will respond when we tell them what the NAP really says?

I don't know anything about the first question, this is really something for signals intel and the FA. As for the second question, assuming that we do challenge them, they can either back down, or declare war. They would be pretty dumb to declare war at this stage, given that they probably only have a few warriors. But they sure as hell will hate backing down; it'll be a huge loss of face for them, and they will not be pleased. They will also have to reassess their opinion of our competence and determination.

So, while we're obviously still heading south no matter what, it might be useful to consider trying to save some face for them. Exactly how we do that is left as an exercise for the reader

	27-03-2003 04:19									#191
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Good to have you on our team Adrian hon!

Very good points you make about CDG.

I look foward to seeing more from you.

	27-03-2003 04:20									#192
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After lots of discussions in the chatroom, this is a modified version of the draft:

Greetings from Apolyton

We here at Apolyton are somewhat bemused by the fact that your civilization considers the most recent move of Bigfree the Warrior a violation of our NAP, while all we are trying to accomplish is to fully comply with the treaty terms.

The agreement clearly states: “...he shall not re-trace his steps" and "Any attempt by CDG to block the warrior BigFree’s movement will be seen as a hostile act and a violation of the Non-Aggression Pact." You explained that the cultural borders implied by your new city were not to be considered an obstacle to the movement of our warrior and we thus raised no objections regarding its foundation, even though it in fact forced and still forces us to stay inside your cultural borders, while it is our sincere intention to never do so.

As GCA asked us to not approach their cultural borders, we moved Bigfree the Warrior in such a way that he will be able to leave your cultural borders this turn in a southwards direction, just as our NAP suggests, while not approaching GCA's border at the same time. We are sincerely just exercising our rights to explore unclaimed land, while keeping to the agreement between our civilizations.

If there is another concern of yours not covered by our treaty, we are ready to listen. However, scouting southwards is our priority and right and we truly hope that your great civilization will understand that.

	27-03-2003 04:33									#193
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I would tell them :-

"We would happily take you up on your most kind offer and head back north, but we feel we have already burdened your very newly aquired territory with our presence for too long. As far as our NAP with GC we of course appreciate your concern for its integritry, but we feel that we have the situation well in hand as we can see lots of unclaimed land that we can rightfully visit with out violating any treaties. We will therefore do the polite thing and leave your terrorty in the most rapid direction. Your kind offer was most well recieved among our people and we feel it a step towards a better long term relationships between our two nations."

rough translation :-

"nice try with the new city but you built it a couple of turns too late to block us and we are definately going south."

	27-03-2003 04:33									#194
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Thanks for the welcome, and I'm glad to be on board

	27-03-2003 06:31									#195
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quote: CDG agreed to a NAP with us that included our staying put for 2 turns. While saying that we could scout South of GCA only. This gave them the time to move a settler down to plant a town right where they would be able to say what they are now saying, "You are in our territory, go back North." CDG planned this whole thing, maybe along with GCA from the very begining or sometime shortly after we found the borders for GCA.

I definitely agree. I think we should point this out to GCA, hoping that they were NOT involved in the planning. GCA would be annoyed with CDG if they knew they had made a treaty with us hoping to force us to either break it or make enemies of GCA.

	27-03-2003 08:55									#196
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Ultimately however, it was all a bluff. They did all they could to stop us from moving our warrior south. If they wanted war they would have done it.

What really worries me is GCA moving THEIR warrior south of ours, technically we have no agreement with them and they can do whatever the hell they want, but purposely moving a unit, knowing well that our destination was south was an extremely aggressive move, and an indirect way of saying "try it, just try it"....

The last sentence of Kentonio's message to us also reinforces this. They are playing hardball but we did good by calling their bluff.

	29-03-2003 01:15									#197
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A disturbing question- what if CDG convinced GCA that we were in the wrong... and what if they are even as of now, allying against us?

	29-03-2003 01:39									#198
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Possible, even likely in fact, Darkcloud. Picture this scenario:


"CDG: Look, we've got Apolyton north of us, and you've got CFC south of you. Apolyton's good and they've got a long-term developing Civ. Let's put our backs up against each other, and divide the continent in half right here. We'll even move a town into position to guard the connection route and help set up trade. Hook us up with that iron, too, will ya?

GCA: Alright, good deal- we're larger and you have immortals, it would be messy for us to attack each other. Use your Immortals on Apolyton and we'll use our size on CFC. Both agree to send help if the other leans on us hard, and since we're close and will have roads, that won' t be a problem."


If I was in either of those two civs, THAT is what I what I would be thinking/doing- they may be close, but a little palace relocation could make that their agreed border in two very healthy empires, divided neatly down the middle at the bottleneck.

	29-03-2003 01:52									#199
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CDG and GCA are definitely much "closer" to themselves than they are with us, we should try and hold CDG while pulling GCA into our camp.

	29-03-2003 06:54									#200
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We could run this better if we can get bigfree down to CFC and make some sort of alliance with them... then perhaps we can get CFC to attack CDG from the bottom and we attack from the top; while ignoring GCA and hoping they don't feel threatened...

	29-03-2003 08:34									#201
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quote: while ignoring GCA and hoping they don't feel threatened...

Wervdon imagines Lucky when we tell him "Now don't feel threatened, CFC and us are just going to divide up you're northern neihbor."

At least, in that situation if they did feel threatened, they wouldn't be able to do a whole lot about it

	30-03-2003 00:49									#202
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Recieved from GF on 29 March; We have a deal. I hope that GCA comes through with their side of the 'three way' affair.

quote: CDG Agrees to this Treaty. Signed GhengisFarb quote: BigFree wrote on 26-03-2003 01:22: Greetings GF On account of your approval of our earlier propsal, I'd like to offer the following proposal on behalf of Apolyton to the People of CDG. We propose the following: Apolyton agrees to give CDG Warrior Code and The Wheel. CDG agrees to give Apolyton Iron Working. This trade is to happen on the first turn in which both parties have acquired the Technologies required for this trade. No Trade Clause Neither Apolyton nor CDG may trade any technology acquired from the other party by this agreement to any other nation for 10 turns after receiving the technology. Non-Voidable If Apolyton aquires Iron Working from another source, it does not void Apolyton's obligation to give CDG The Wheel and Warrior Code upon Apolyton's completion of the two technologies. If CDG aquires Wheel and/or Warrior Code from another source, it does not void CDG's obligation to give Apolyton Iron Working upon completion of the research. This is the agreement in whole. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Respectfully BigFree Apolytonian Ambassador

	30-03-2003 01:45									#203
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Now aren't we just getting along just fine with GhengisFarb around

	30-03-2003 02:11									#204
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Great. Relations with both teams are just fine.

	30-03-2003 08:32									#205
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I don't know if anyone has noticed this yet, but as far as we have seen, we are the only ones with fresh water for irrigation. This has several conitations with it:

1) some of the southern Civ Cities will be size limited without irrigation

2) we can possibly sell "water rights" were they are able to buy water for their irrigation.

3) this might become a problem in the future, as they might try to take the water by force.

E_T

	30-03-2003 08:59									#206
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Unless CDG builds a city really far north.

Aeson is probably right, and GCA's homeland is probably pretty far from the city we've seen. They probably have water around somewhere, though CDG may be living in a bit of a dry environment.

	30-03-2003 10:37									#207
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Water rights? We're going to become water merchants?

::starts looking around for the worms and the spice::

I move that our next warrior be called Mua'dib!

	30-03-2003 18:17									#208
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quote: 2) we can possibly sell "water rights" were they are able to buy water for their irrigation.

Too bad as soon as we sold it to them, we'd lose the power to ever cut the flow off again since I'm pretty sure the game only looks for agecent fresh water or irrigation, and once they have one square of irrigation, they can expand on it even if it loses its connection to fresh water.

We'd be better off making them starve IMO :P

	30-03-2003 18:56									#209
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There is a river N of CDG, within 3 tiles. It looks to be headed their way too. I wouldn't be suprised if they were on a river.

	30-03-2003 23:12									#210
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At least the threat of early war seems diminished, something that would have been bad for both of us. Regarding the terrain: The land SW of OGAT2K looks rather worthless. Unless CDG has good terrain to their NW, its a good bet they will be going into the jungle also.