06-04-2003 05:05									#211
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Here’s some stuff I dug up on the CDG site; some may be of use some of it not.


FOUND IN CDG’S STRATEGY FORUM:

QUESTION: I've been trying play diff strategies lately on an early start to get a huge advantage on a civ, no result.

So i'm trying to ask how do you start a game?? Peacefully?? Warmongering?? How????

ANSWER: I build as many cities as possible (about 10) and defend them with a man (2 on boarder cities) and then settle in for a good war to take over the surrounding land, primarily with knights.

I try to get a good tech lead early on, and by the time I get to the middle ages I'm a few techs ahead of the rest.

I can only play on monarch though, so I'm not sure how viable this strategy is on higher difficulty levels. (Micaelis Rex-CDG)

ANSWER: We have people who claim they can always win on Deity?! Why the hell arent they in the Intersite game then! (Kentonio-CDG)


CDG’ RULING PARTY POLICY (E.L.F) Elucidian Libertarian Front

-War when war is called for, not just for the sake of it.
-Beer for all, free as the very air!
-Enhance the culture of our great nature but not at the cost of leaving ourselves open to attack.
-Befriend our neighbours but never trust any country with our very wellbeing.
-Trade whenever possible to further richen our nation, not only with allies but with any nation we can find. (With the exception of trading high tech military assets with common enemies)
-Further our intelligence assets whenever possible to know as much as we can about other nations.


CDG CABINET MEMBERS

President - Kentonio
Vice President - Omnimower

Domestic Advisor - Skilord
Deputy - Recon
Defense Advisor - Michaelis Rex
Deputy - Guyincorner
Foreign Advisor - Louis XXIV
Deputy - GhengisFarb
Science Advisor - Msahutty
Deputy - Tonsoffun
Trade and Culture - Bewareofgnomes
Deputy - Manya

Chief Justice – Kingpin


MESSAGES FOUND IN CDG FORUM PERTAINING TO THE ISDG:
http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/c...der=asc&start=0

Louis XXIV: I would like to remind all the members of the Elucidian Libertarian Front to vote in the tie-breaker poll for our first Foreign minister of the Intersite Democracy Game.

This is not the time, nor the place for me to give a speech. The thread that contains the poll has my policies, and I'll ask you to consider them before you make your discission.


Bewareofgnomes: okay fellow elf members, this is the deal. as of know manya is down by 2 votes in the foreign advisor poll. there are but three hours left. MANYA MUST WIN. he is running against louis, a war loving communist. we MUST not let a war mogerer be our foreign advisor because, well, its just not a good idea. So we must get out in vote between now and 11. Onwards Comrades!!!!


Micaelis Rex: Yes, as the chairman of the ELF party, I recommend voting Manya for foreign minister.


Louis XXIV: Members of your proud party.
I cannot deny that I favor a communist government. Nor can I deny that I favor a government who wishes to guarantee we can survive without fear of subjugation by our neighbors.

However, I am not in the positions of President or Defense Minister. I am running for Foreign minister, and I know where my duty lies. It is not my decision to declare war and I do not intend to recommend that this coarse of action be taken, unless absolutely necessary. It is my job to strive for cooperation, as I have said many times before.

I cannot possess the arrogance to say that I know what is best for each situation. That is why I serve the people, and the government, to achieve what is needed.

I am not just a member of the DAPP party, but a citizen of this nation, and no beliefs of mine, however naive, will cause me to sacrifice what is best of the nation.


AFTER LOUIS XXIV’S WINNING THE ELECTION TO THE “FOREIGN ADVISOR” POST

Bewareofgnomes: well its too late now . congrats and you best not piss cfc or poly off or else you'll have mess with me . dont take trade and culture lightly

Louis XXIV: Since you are trade advisor, I will be working a lot with you. Since we both share responsibilities in many areas.

Bewareofgnomes: yes we do. we both have to deal with those bastards from poly and cfc ect... a propose a toast for a smashing start and great cooperation between trad and culture advisor and foreign advisor.

Louis XXIV: I would like to remind you that these forums are public.

Bewareofgnomes: yes well thats too bad, theyre just gonna have to live with that. YOU HEAR ME YOU BASTARDS. YES IM TALKING TO YOU. ITS ON NOW!

Manya: Emmm, Elucidia takes no credit on what Bewareofgnomes said now, thank you very much .

LATER IN THE SAME THREAD. POSTED MARCH 18

Thamis: It is time to make an alliance in a very serious matter of polics. The LPE really needs your support against tendencies that are discussed in the latest screenshots thread in the private forum. Can't go into more detail, but just look the private forum.

Louis XXIV: It's not that big of a deal.

Like I said before,
The [Deleted] is [Deleted] [Deleted]

If your not in America you won't get it, as it's an American cliche

This post was edited by [Deleted]


Just to keep you on your toes.

Thamis: Well, the [deleted] matter is kind of over now. But I'm sure it will come up again...

Louis XXIV: I'm sure it [Deleted]

END OF THREAD

Notes from me:

It's funny how bewareofgnomes mentions both Apolyton and CFC even though they've yet to see either of us on our landmass. This comment by him was made when the game was just getting underway; kind of fishy !

	06-04-2003 06:15									#212
	Get a bigger avatar today!

WHOA now- WHEN is the date on this conversation you just posted? The implication you're making there is that they've been playing well ahead and making it a team policy (since the other players didn't reprimand or react to Gnomefellow), to see where everyone is?

Is there anything we can do if we CAN prove they're cheating?

	06-04-2003 06:21									#213
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Either insist they destruct, or call the game.

The problem would be in the 'proof'.

	06-04-2003 06:48									#214
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Eh, I think we're are WAY too paranoid. I don't really see anything there that proves they know something. Poly and CDG are the known "big dogs" in this game and many of these other sites consist of people who have been banned from both our communities and aren't particularly fond of either team.

	06-04-2003 09:22									#215
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

well, just as we would love to be the ones to wipe out CFC, they would relish victory against CFC or us. AFAIK CDG was formed from disgruntled members of the Third Reich design team who left CFC because some jews complained their sigs and titles were offensive.

	06-04-2003 09:40									#216
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Going into this game Apolyton and CFC are/were the two biggest sites in the competition, the teams with the most respected players. I don't think these posts show any evidence of cheating, but it does tell us a few things about them:

1) They are a democracy with countering parties and agendas and the interal result of such counter parties should lead them down a "middle of the road" path.

2) We can expect some changes in attitudes and behaviors as different regimes are elected into power ... we should also try our best to be extra friendly with any new ambassadors or Foreign Ministers .... the new guy will egotisticaly assume that any "past problems" were due to the old guy and our new friendlier behavior towards him is due to his assention, his policies, and his great skill. He will also come to doubt any information or opinions given by the old regime about us and create his own, ones encouraged by our extra-friendly behavior. Hell, we could even toss him an unusually generous deal at the beginning of his post. That'll soften him up considerably, give him political clout in his new government, and change his attitude on us immediately.

3) We need to make nice with the pacifist/cultural policial party at CDG. Perhaps find ways to indirectly influence their elections.

4) Changing governments mean very few long term plans. Turnover leads to turns of disary and poor execution of plans. Changed administrations tend to throw out the old plans, changing directions of the country and setting themselves back a few turns. All of this is what we want. A sort of mild anarchy.

This recent intel is VERY good news.

--Togas

	06-04-2003 09:55									#217
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Nice sleuthing, BigFree! I agree with Togas' assessement: this is very good news.

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Like I said before, The [Deleted] is [Deleted] [Deleted] If your not in America you won't get it, as it's an American cliche

Can anyone guess what the cliché could be?


Dominae

	06-04-2003 11:32									#218
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, since they are such a small group I'm not so sure their plans will change so much. Attitude might though. However since it seems Kentonio is one of the big shots, he may still have a big say in their dealings towards us.

Too bad Manya didn't win, I know him alot from the Spanish forum and we actually talk alot by MSN. He's 13 years old, pretty smart for his age, but anyone at 13 is subject to influence. He is not a warmonger. I'll try and see if can get more info on this subject next time I meet him, after all its public, hopefully he'll mention things that aren't so public...

	06-04-2003 14:13									#219
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon WHOA now- WHEN is the date on this conversation you just posted?

The posts about the 'election' were on Feb 20-21. The follow-up about 'the serious matter' was on March 18.

	06-04-2003 17:10									#220
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I agree with Togas's assessment 100%. It seems to me from that post that future war or prolonged peace with CDG will come down (at least partially) to how elections over there go. If we can do something which will aid their less-warmongering party, then by all means lets do so

	07-04-2003 05:56									#221
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Can anyone guess what the cliché could be?

The ball is in our court.

The proof is in the pudding.

The coast is clear.

The enemy is at the gate.

The shoe is on the other foot.

Not sure which of these are considered 'American'.

Just some random ideas what it could've been.

	07-04-2003 06:42									#222
	Tired of ads?

The base is belong to us.

	24-04-2003 07:54									#223
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Non-Agg Renegotiations are scheduled for turn 46

We are 5 turns from Wheel. We believe CDG completed IW on turn 40.

1) We need to get the IW for WC + Wheel swap done ASAP, hopefully on turn 47, which means we should contact CDG and get them to offer us IW on turn 46.

2) Once that trade is complete, we should then focus on a new Non-Agg ... one that does not limit us so greatly. I recommend that all FAM staff and friends take a look at the previous treaty and suggest changes on this thread ... what we should look for is something LESS complex and less binding. We should have no fear of CDG taking our settlement spots nor should we feel the need to get permission to travel through "their land" for future scouting. From here on out we need to seek equal and fair treaties.

Please use this thread to discuss our next Non-Agg agreement.

BigFree -- Please contact CDG and inform them that we should finish Wheel within 5 turns and would like to set up the exchange with them for IW on turn 47, with them offering us IW on turn 46.

--Togas

	24-04-2003 08:00									#224
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

While it's not so important right now (until we get IW) we shouldn't make any settlement treaties or borders.

Our future build and unit plans will be affected by iron in or near CDG territory. We should brace for impact should we see that little silver nugget...

	26-04-2003 00:41									#225
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Keep the warrior screen in mind when negotiating. (but don't mention it obviously). A less restrictive treaty is better for us at this stage.

	26-04-2003 02:44									#226
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Message sent to GF of CDG

quote: GF, We are close to having the techs required for our trade. We should be finished on turn 47. CDG should offer IW on turn 46 so that we can offer WC and TW on the following turn(47). We are also talking with GCA about coordinating our next research goal, a three way exchange program seems to be the way to go. Let us know what path you'd like to take as well as what you'd suggest for us. You may have already finnished IW and are onto another goal; if so, Apolyton and GCA shouldn't choose that one, so please let us know what it is you're planning/working on already. BigFree Apolytonian Ambassador

	28-04-2003 14:31									#227
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Could we politely ask for CDG to move that warrior so that we can move through the chokepoint and explore the CFC lands. I think it is unlikely that they will accept but we have nothing to lose by asking and we may gain some intelligence if they give us a none obvious (to us)reason for rejecting such a move.

	28-04-2003 15:22									#228
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dominae It sounds like everyone in the FA is convinced war is inevitable. So I guess there's no solution. Did we try our best? Maybe. Are we going to quit? Yes, because our ego will not allow us to live next to a bully. I would like to point out again that, unless CDG lands are worse than ours (unlikely), an Immortal attack, if it comes, will probably ruin us no matter how hard we try to defend (poprushes and all). This is definitely scary. The goal is therefore to work to avoid this war at all costs, or delay it as long as possible. Screaming for "adequate defense" is hardly a solution. Dominae

hi ,

, ...... war , lets go bonk some heads sir , ...

peace true power !

we should wait till we have some gold , iron around the corner and the money to upgrade , .....

have a nice day

	28-04-2003 15:54									#229
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

panag, I can't believe you just quoted something from over 5 weeks ago and commented on it. Wait, on the other hand, I can believe it

*BigFree shakes head is disbelief*


When you spam, at least try to stay on current issues.

	29-04-2003 10:36									#230
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

BigFree. Where exactly is that NAP, and when exactly did it kick in.

Copying it here might be good.

	29-04-2003 10:46									#231
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

NYE, The first post in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs thread shows the status of the Non-Agg, date it was ratified, and turn. It also gives highlights. Full text can be found in the Correspondence thread.

I will continue to try to keep the first post of the FAM thread updated as often as possible as a quick reference place for diplomatic affairs.

--Togas

	29-04-2003 10:47									#232
	Support Apolyton

Copy of current NAP with CDG.

as of 3/19/03 (turn 21) a NON-AGRESSION pact that also includes:
Settlement agreement
Limited scouting for Warrior bigfree
We inform CDG of contacts made by BigFree.
CDG will not block our scouting.
Expires on or after turn 51.
Renegotiations to begin @turn 46.

Agreement to trade Warrior Code & Wheel for Iron Working

quote: Greetings from Apolyton I, the Ambassador of Apolytonia, hereby offer the following proposal to the Nation of Elucidia. If you agree to this proposal as outlined, mark "AGREED" on the bottom of the document and forward it to bigfree1. It shall then be considered a binding agreement once I've received it. APOLYTONIA AND ELUCIDIA HEREBY AGREE: That we are brothers, separated by only a jungle, and bound together in our common desire to survive and prosper. We wish for there to be peace between us, and in order to ensure that peace we hereby agree to the following: 1) There shall be no war or conflict between us. Our units shall not attack each other, nor shall they enter the cultural borders of the other party without permission. This shall be considered a Non-Aggression Pact. 2) Our settlers shall not settle within the cultural borders of the other nation. CDG settlers shall not move more than 5 tiles from Elucidia in the Northeast direction before founding a new CDG city. Apolytonian settlers shall not move more than 5 tiles from Apolyton in the Southwest direction before founding a new Apolytonian city. 3) The warrior BigFree shall remain in place until turn 23, and at that time he may move south to make contact with the Gamecatcher Alliance. Once this contact is made, he shall not retrace his steps, he may only explore south of the GCA nation. Any attempt by CDG to block the warrior BigFree’s movement will be seen as a hostile act and a violation of the Non-Aggression Pact. 4) Should the warrior BigFree make contact with any other nations, Apolyton shall immediately inform CDG of this fact. 5) This agreement shall last 30 turns after it is ratified by both parties. This agreement shall be open for renegotiation after 25 turns have passed.

	29-04-2003 11:13									#233
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We should hold open the possibility of making it 40 turns. I have not modeled a military solution yet. It does take a bit to get to 8 or 10 vet mercs.

In any event, once we know where the horses are (2 turns) I will begin looking at ques and timing. IF we should decide to go this route, we will want the NAP to expire as near as possible to the start date. btw, that means adding 10 turns from the last merc being finished in Poly to reach the point of no return 3 tiles from Elucidia.

/Edit 8 or so turns from Poly to the start line.

	29-04-2003 11:17									#234
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Given the very relevant discussion that is going on in this thread about the idea of attacking CDG pre-emptively, the FAM will not attempt to renegotiate the Non-Agg treaty with CDG until AFTER we have received Iron Working, reviewed the map for possible iron deposits, and revisted the matter.

We can let the Non-Agg lapse and renegotiate it a few turns later if we must. There is little harm in going without a Non-Agg for a few turns if we need time to make a decision. There is more harm in agreeing to a Non-Agg and then deciding to break it.

Therefore, BigFree, we need to keep on Kentonio about getting our IW for Wheel & WC trade done. If they try to get us to talk Non-Agg early politely decline, tell them you need to talk to me, or tell them that you're not sure what is being done yet and will get back to him soon on it.

--Togas

	29-04-2003 22:05									#235
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by BigFree panag, I can't believe you just quoted something from over 5 weeks ago and commented on it. Wait, on the other hand, I can believe it *BigFree shakes head is disbelief* When you spam, at least try to stay on current issues.

hi ,

it came up again in messages , ....

still we need a large amount of gold for upgrades et all , ....

we should , even if its only 5 or 6 bucks make profit , we should say no to losing money !

have a nice day

	30-04-2003 01:01									#236
	Inflate your Upload Space

Bigfree -- Also, don't bring up the Warrior BigFree issue with CDG until after we've finished the IW trade. We don't need to give them any excuses for not following through with this deal.

--Togas

	30-04-2003 02:09									#237
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Agreed; though once we have those Techs in hand we can then take a hard liner's stance against them in talks. We won't be waffling anymore.

	30-04-2003 07:12									#238
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

::continues in the vein of ignoring Panag::

Gentlemen, with all due respect, I think it might benefit us to keep a more positive attitude about our relations with CDG. (Especially since the thread about the pre-emptive attack seems to be saying "no.") It really *WILL* do us quite a bit of good to get in good with them and meat-puppet them against GCA. I know they're incomptent, but consider smiling and being friendly even though we may want to strangle them?

Hard-lining is not the way to win their friendship and puppet strings, after all.

	30-04-2003 07:32									#239
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I agree with F-P re CDG. Right up until the moment the SoD approaches them (it most likely will at some time, if not ancient then medieval) we should remain cordial with them.

I disagree with F-P in the attitude that they are incompetent and should be treated as such. There are many experienced civvers over there. Many of them vets of Civ2 MP (I don't have a clue about their PTW experience). One thing I would dearly love to avoid is a repeat of the image GS gained as being arrogant, partially due to some over confident or dismissive rhetoric leaking out of the locker room.

We are no better nor worse than any other team than the results of this game prove in the end.

	30-04-2003 08:40									#240
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I agree completely with NYE here.

Anyone can win this game, and if CDG shows up in 10 turns with a massive stack next to Apolyton, I don't want to have to take the fall for it.