30-08-2003 22:55									#331
	Slow Progress. Remove this text

Mr STYOM (Anarchy) takes over the helm of state.

OK... we can cross off atomant's rule.

1850: Increment some units, press enter
Galleon sunk by Sioux with Diplomat aboard
French kill our Diplomat near Paris, and attack Verdun fruitlessly

1851: Select Republic, violating BobSmurf's rule. After much thinking, we turn the sliders to 5.4.1. The only way we're going to win this game is by trade, and we have no Caravans en route, so we need cash to rush them.
Somehow we don't have Seafaring. Let's try to steal that, it would really help in growing our cities.

Looking back over the logs... techs stolen already in Lyons, Rheims, Paris, Marseilles, Chartres, Tours, Avignon (La Fayette)

Explosives stolen from Sioux (Wounded Knee)
Sell Granary in Bob Hope.

It's very hard to make cities celebrate with no happy Wonders. We rush an Aqueduct in Beeblebrox (which CAN celebrate, thanks to Colossus) and a Library in Fright Wig.

Gilligan founded.

French kill stranded Diplomat near Marseille

1852: Whooo, next tech choice would be a hard one were it not for my rule which requires me to take Communism (other choices were Corporation, Fundamentalism, and of course, Seafaring! )

Fright Wig Xins (for beakers). Tax rates adjusted to 6.4.0

French and Zulus won't make peace (French revolt - seem to be Republic; Zulus demand Conscription and we decline to give it (they are Supreme); we make peace with Sioux.

French become Monarchy; French and Sioux cancel peace treaty

1853: Jerry Lewis founded. Library sold in Bob Hope.
For the h*ll of it, we pay 50 g for an alliance with the Sioux. They won't swap techs with us, suggesting that when we stole Explosives, that was all they had. Or more likely, they have all that we do.

1854: Celebrations end, and we readjust taxes to 7.3.0. This is a revolution year, anyway.
Embassy with Sioux - they have Metallury, RR and Seafaring, which we don't have, and are learning Tactics.

Doofus founded.

WOW - I said hello to the Sioux and they cancelled our alliance! Touchy.
Thus, I contact the French, and in exchange for us declaring war on the Sioux, we get a ceasefire. I figure we're better off with peace with the French, since they are our easiest trade partner and don't have (m)any cities we can steal tech from anymore.
Per atawa, Revolution

1855: Democracy formed. Some incrementing done. Celebrations aren't really practical, even at 80% lux none of our big cities will grow, so tax rate stays 7.3.0.

1856: re-Xin Fright Wig. Increment some Caravans.

1857: Coal Wabbit>Rheims 210 g, Coal Monty Python>Rheims 60 g, Spice Bozo>Rheims 72 g.
More incrementing.

French learn Tactics.

1858: Re-Xin Fright Wig, more incrementing.

OK, I did not click revolution... the next person to play should either do that before pressing enter, unless they want to skip atawa's rule.

My recommendation: I built up a lot of cash and tried to put a lot more Caravans into production, and I think that's the way to go. We can hopefully keep incrementally buying Caravans and later, Freight, thus keeping the trade coming. Having a large cash surplus also limits the city bribing opportunities our enemies will have.

Thus, I suggest going to Republic and then Demo again next time around. By then, if we deliver some more 'vans, we should have Communism, which makes the 'cycle through governments' rule a bit more bearable. With a 3rd half-decent government (and a fourth, once we learn Fundy), BobSmurf's rule will only be really painful for every second player (every 16 turns).

Jerry Lewis is a destination city for Freight bound to the NE French cities and around to the Sioux. The Sioux have some large cities demanding our goods; the loaded Galleon is headed that way. Land in Jerry Lewis, take the Caravel to Doofus (if the Caravel ends turn in either city, no unhappiness ), and then take the Galleon in Doofus to Rheims in 1 turn or N to Sioux lands (at your own risk). There is a smaller shipchain from Monty Python to Chartres. Galleon at 55,65 is going to retrieve Bob Hope's Diplomat and take him N to steal some stuff from the Zulus

Be careful which cities you send Diplos to - most of the accessible French cities have already had techs stolen (see above).

Attachment: so_a1858.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	01-09-2003 00:08									#332
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Nice to see some progress.

It's post-1850 and troubles abound.
Does anyone think we can actually win this one?

	01-09-2003 03:53									#333
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It is possible -- either we get a lot of cities trading, or use Howies to take everything in sight.

	01-09-2003 03:56									#334
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... or both

	01-09-2003 19:19									#335
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Nice to see some progress. It's post-1850 and troubles abound. Does anyone think we can actually win this one?

I was thinking about this quite a bit.

We have a lot of problems (as you mentioned). We have no production capacity to speak of. No factories.

We have some food Freights stockpiled which we could probably build Adam Smith with, but I was holding out for something like UN, Hoover, or CfC (which could ease our happiness issues).

We have very little seapower and we will need seabased trade routes to win, IMO. I put 2 Ironclads in production, but of course, the second they go to sea there will be unrest in their homeports.

Our reputation isn't Spotless and it's past 1750 anyway, so it's hard to get any favours from the AIs. I have avoided talking to the French so that our ceasefire will hold a bit longer (I hope).

I agree with those that think the Howitzer based win is the way to go. We ought to target some cities with key wonders (Mike's!!) and capture those. Mike's would be a huge improvement - we wouldn't be wasting so much effort on keeping cities out of unrest with 30% lux and elvises. And in Fundy... tons more cash with Mikes.

Having said that, a lot of our homeland cities could be taken by a Frigate with a Dragoons inside. Our defenses are weak, and the only reason we've lasted this long is because the AI is incapable of mounting an invasion.

	02-09-2003 11:50									#336
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man We have very little seapower and we will need seabased trade routes to win, IMO. I put 2 Ironclads in production, but of course, the second they go to sea there will be unrest in their homeports. I agree with those that think the Howitzer based win is the way to go. We ought to target some cities with key wonders (Mike's!!) and capture those. Mike's would be a huge improvement - we wouldn't be wasting so much effort on keeping cities out of unrest with 30% lux and elvises. And in Fundy... tons more cash with Mikes. Having said that, a lot of our homeland cities could be taken by a Frigate with a Dragoons inside. Our defenses are weak, and the only reason we've lasted this long is because the AI is incapable of mounting an invasion.

I think STYOM has given a very useful analysis of our situation and strategy. The good news is that the AI civs aren't very good at either conquest or getting to AC, so we've probably got until 2020.

If we continue to use our rule exemption to stay in a useful form of government, the only control we will have over our research will be through trading techs and stealing them. Trading techs will become a bit easier once someone builds the UN.

Whether we go for conquest or AC, we will need to pump out the caravans like there is no tomorrow. STYOM has left a good treasury and some useful vans on route to France. We can rush the vans being built (particularly any repeating commodity such as hides) and we are close to having a ship chain to a couple of useful French cities, but we will need to arrange transport for some of our remote colonies. (Even a caravan in poor old Leiden will need transport.)

My suggestion for debate is that we concentrate all our mainland cities on building vans and use the colonies for palace construction, transport, etc.

RJM at Sleepers

	02-09-2003 12:30									#337
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Errr, still no atawa? I might be able to get to this… someday.
I'm already up in Tricky and long overdue in Lazy

If atawa has dropped out can we drop his silly rule?

	02-09-2003 20:02									#338
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow Errr, still no atawa? I might be able to get to this… someday. I'm already up in Tricky and long overdue in Lazy If atawa has dropped out can we drop his silly rule?

Nah -- quit complainin' -- after all, we have yet to face MY silly rule!

	04-09-2003 10:51									#339
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So, once your rule kicks in I suppose it supersedes LaFayette's rule—must move generally Westward but not restricted to diagonals as other move 2 units.

Right?

	04-09-2003 11:42									#340
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I agree with the archer: Westwards is westwards!
That (very silly) rule supersedes mine.

	04-09-2003 18:45									#341
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I don't care if they take a diagonal route, but if there is no diagonal option, then yes, they can continue WEST even if it is strictly due west (non-diagonal). The trucks are not forced to stop & wait for a boat, etc. (so they could travel along the poles accordingly.)

	11-09-2003 10:17									#342
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow Errr, still no atawa? I might be able to get to this… someday. I'm already up in Tricky and long overdue in Lazy

How's it going Straybow - anything happening?

RJM at Sleepers

	14-09-2003 11:43									#343
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Had a very heavy work week, now recovered. Should complete on Sun/Mon.

	15-09-2003 13:49									#344
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* Straybow shakes his head at this silly game…
1858 A little tweaking, not much to do. Oedo year is '59, must revolt.
1859 Zulus discover Commie, start UN. Cities running dangerously low on food; with this government switching granaries are not optional. We were in Dem, now switch to Despotism. Shipboard Caravans moved towards Souix cities, transfered to Transport, Settler moved into Wabbit for "repositioning" via ship.

1860 Thucydides says Zulus are gloriously large, French are fine, we are mediocre, and the Souix are pathetic. French gov overthrown, too. Zulu Galleon approaches Jerry Lewis (cursor actually show me there is a Dragoons unit aboard), Zulu 'clad + another offshore near Bob Hope. At 60% Lux some cities still need Elvis, but at least nobody is in danger of dropping a size.
1861 Zulu ships move on (3 'clads and Frig near BH). Locate Cedar Creek, hope they don't kill the 'van before it can deliver. Galleon with Dip, Gal with 'van probe for Zulu & Spanish coast.

1862 Zimbabwe builds UN. Wabbit Spice to CC 258. Oedo approaches, must revolt.
1863 We choose Monarchy 5.3.2 setting keeps things settled with minimum Elvises. Swazi located & Embassy established with Zulu. Suddenly we have contact with Spanish, and with English and Russians we've yet to meet! A little tweaking.

1864 Advanced Tribe Ritter joins us, and it already has a Temple Beeble Coal to Little Big 510, beakers full.
1865 Zulus capture Gilligan, 35g, and learn Conscription. We tell the people that we cannot change to Commie because it isn't an election year. We are forced by Silly Rule to choose The Corp as our next target.

Spanish attitude is now receptive, so a delegation is sent. We trade Commie and San for Railroad and Seafaring. They demand Conscription, which I give, and then they agree to swap maps! I try neutral Russia, give Gunpowder, and get an agreement for peace (won't swap maps). Catherine is weakest, no arrows. I try the Icy Brits as well; Henry (one arrow) wants RR, I give him nothing.

* Straybow happy
The Spanish maps are excellent. Their large continent (#30) shows their well-developed civ, plus Moscow and Minsk, another arm with the English. A small continent has two more Spanish cities.

1866 Barbs land near Ritter, which is defenseless. Caravan sent into French territory finds Orlean, delivers Oil for 88. I invoke -JRabbit's rule to suspend my own rule, and rush a half dozen Cathedrals and 3 Temples. With 218g remaining in the treasury the barbs might offer to spare Ritter…

To complete my round (given the use of -JRabbit coupon) I start revolution, hit End Turn but take no other actions. 1867 .

We have Gold ready for delivery to Wounded Knee, and the Gal is waiting for Beeble Salt which is demanded in Moscow. Settler near Wabbit has one "charge" under its belt—probably needs to head up towards Monty for roadbuilding.

Please build some Granaries before certain cities grow so that when we go into Anarchy and Despotism we won't lose a size! I had Beeble and Silly Walks citizens fishing (but not Xinning) to prevent growth.

Attachment: so_a1867.sav
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Last edited by Straybow on 15-09-2003 at 13:59

	15-09-2003 14:04									#345
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Argh, messed up the edit. Forgot to say what happened in the enemy moves for 1867:

Ritter spared for 109g, but one Knight was outside the radius (it was in the one unexplored tile, outside city radius). Our troops in Bullwinkle resisted bombardment from Zulu Frigate (thanks for the Vet!) and Ironclad (thanks for the Elite… oh, this isn't SMAC).

I chose Commie, but my successor can use the -JRabbit coupon during this turn (as switching is free throughout Oedo year).

	16-09-2003 10:30									#346
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I think I'm up next. I'm inclined to use the JR exemption to avoid "bad" government types and hence no need to build granaries. Anyone who thinks this is a bad move, please post withing 24 hours. Also any advice on trade, war, diplomacy. etc welcome.

RJM at Sleepers

	16-09-2003 19:23									#347
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I think we're behind in trade, and have too few cities -- but we also need to be able to defend the ones we have.

	16-09-2003 23:02									#348
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You can stay in Commie—it does have its advantages. Celebration gives the extra arrows, and with martial law and Colosseums that's no prob. Sometimes using the coupon to skip the mid-round change of gov't is more efficient.

	17-09-2003 10:27									#349
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Thanks for the input guys.

I've had a look at the save and I now have some revised thoughts. I won't start playing my turn till about 25 hours from this post to give anyone who wants to a chance to comment on these thoughts. I have never played under communism before, so if there are any special features I should exploit, please let me know. I wonder if it's worth going for Adam Smith's in a big way since we already have 4 food vans waiting?

1. I think I will follow the silly rules and take communism this turn and the republic in 4 turns time.

2. Adjusting tax or workers (or both) would get a lot of cities celebrating. However I'm not convinced the benefits of this are large enough or would last long enough to make it worthwhile. I'm inclined to reduce luxury rate to zero and employ a few entertainers to cope with unhappiness.

3. I propose to try to obtain peace with the Zulus and then build a ship chain in that direction to deliver any undemanded goods to their size 17 city. I'll try this after rushing some vans, but before delivering any in the hope that they will settle for one of our technologies.

4. I'm not inclined to try to deliver the salt to Moscow. It will take quite a few turns and I have no idea when Moscow's demand will change. However, it is tempting to build a ship chain in that direction to deliver to those Spanish cities, so I might change my mind - particularly if I can't get peace with the Zulus.

5. I think that we have enough in the kitty and coming from deliveries that we can afford to set the science rate at it's maximum.

6. Assuming everything goes OK, I expect to use the rule exemption to choose our next technology target.

I'll keep an eye on opportunities for new cities, but not high priority. I'll also look at building granaries before city growth takes place, but since our next two governments are benign I probably won't build.

All comments gratefully received.

RJM at Sleepers

	17-09-2003 12:29									#350
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True, we don't have so many ships that we can easily spare one for a journey to Spain and Russia. As for the granaries, I mainly mean Beeble and SW. It takes our cities so long to grow that granaries would make a big difference.

We face a tough choice on WoWs. JSBach, Adam Smith, and Newton would each give us a good return (in roughly that order). Unfortunately, Theology and Theory of Gravity are rather low in the alphabet. (Unless French might yield a different result, Mr. La Fayette?)

I'd say wait for JSBach because 1) my silly rule is more evil than I thought it would be, in combination with all your silly rules, and 2) it applies to every city right away (great for newer cities), and 3) it gets applied after war unhappiness (great for representative gov'ts).

	17-09-2003 18:07									#351
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Nice post, rjm@. A few thoughts...

Regarding JSB, Straybow has me sold. I'm a huge Adam Smith fan, but we need to make our WoW choices based on the (silly) rules of the game we're playing.

Regarding 'van delivery, I think it's a waste of effort to divert a lengthy trip that we don't have infrastructure for just because one good MAY be demanded on delivery. Pursue all deliveries along the established chain to the Zulus to maximize efficiency through continuous camel flow.

This will keep the "kitty" full while our tech rate zooms.

	17-09-2003 18:50									#352
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow I'd say wait for JSBach because 1) my silly rule is more evil than I thought it would be, in combination with all your silly rules, and 2) it applies to every city right away (great for newer cities), and 3) it gets applied after war unhappiness (great for representative gov'ts).

I thought Bach only works on cities that already have a Cathedral?

	17-09-2003 18:56									#353
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JSB works for every city, regardless of other factors.

I think that we should set up a ship chain & work it.

	17-09-2003 19:36									#354
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I think it was worded in the manual that it worked on Cathedrals, or maybe that was Civ1. I know that several WoWs were altered between Civ1 and Civ2. I've been trying to remember if JSB was in Civ1, or added in Civ2?

Anyway, it was in these progression games that I came to understand the true power of JSB adding its effect after war protest—can't match it with any normal city improvement.

	18-09-2003 11:13									#355
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Thanks for the comments everyone.

I'll start playing in a little while. I'm not sure whether I'll complete my turns in a single session or not. Either way I'll post something around this time tomorrow - either an interim report or the log plus save.

RJM at Sleepers

	18-09-2003 17:21									#356
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I am jealous of your civtime, rjm@. I'm at work and have a open house for parents at my daughter's school... (sigh)

Enjoy!

	19-09-2003 12:03									#357
	Silly Log 1867 - 1875 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

1867 Set 80% science, 10% tax, 10% luxury. With a few entertainers and taxmen, this gives 269 beakers and a budget surplus of 1. Unconditional cease fire and peace treaty with the Sioux. Swap Communism for tactics. Give tactics for cease fire with Zulus. Swap economics for metallurgy. Gold: Bozo -> Wounded Knee (252) Hides: Goodie -> Umfolozi (88). Buy 10 shields in Sticky; 14 in Silly. Rush a diplomat in Ritter. Start engineers in Droofus and Jerry intended to colonize the islands to the north, and an engineer in Bullwinkle intended for colonization of the islands to the east. Cross fingers and hit enter. Zulus start Adam Smith's.

1868 Bribe the barb knight near Ritter for 124 (I didn't realize it would be so expensive.) Beads: Monty -> Ceder creek (55). Buy 31 shields in Fright wig. Hit enter. French develop corporation.

1869 Hides: Silly -> Umfolozi (91). Buy 30 Shields in Silly. French demand Communism; I refuse and we are at war. Kill 2 french units N of Verdun, but leave my dragoons exposed. Hit enter. Zulus have nearly completed Adam's. French change to Republic

1870 Buy 21 shields in Fright wig. Revolt and sort out the unhapiness and hunger. Hit enter. Zulus build Adam's.

1871 Choose Republic. Delay delivering vans to avoid loss of beakers. Hit enter. Discover corporation and use JRabbit's rule to start researching theology. Beeblebrox celebrates.

1872 Dye: Goodie -> Umfolozi (107) Hides: Silly -> Umfolozi (111) Hides Fright -> Umfolozi (94) Salt: Beeblebrox -> Umfolozi (148) Buy shields to complete freight in various cities. Hit enter wondering what to do about a new ship chain.

1873 Found Third Rock east of Sticky Moose. Hides: Silly Walks -> Umfolozi (111) (last delivery to Umfolozi for a while!) Hit enter. Sioux and English sign peace treaty. Zulus discover electricity. Spanish land on neighbouring island to Ritter.

1874 Zulus ask for the corporation, I refuse, we are at war. Revolt. Hit enter. We lose one of our dragoons near Verdun

1876 I choose democracy and save the game. The next player will need to make all the adjustments, and can use the JRabbit rule to choose another form of government if desired.

The military situation is bad. Our main island is wide open to invasion. The island colonies are not well defended. Even around Verdun and Old Chuckles, our forces are out of date and suffered losses. I planned to destroy the French units in the area and then give them communism for a cease fire while I delivered a caravan in safety. This cunning plan was foiled when the French refused to talk to me and destroyed my exposed dragoons.

The science situation is not much better. We take 5 turns per technology even with 80% science in a democracy. And of course we lose 1 turn in 4 because of the change of government. However we did discover one tech, we have nearly completed another and we swapped for two more.

We had a good ship chain going to Umfolozi and there were some deliveries left over from the previous turn set, so we did quite well out of trade. We have one demanded gem caravan about to be delivered. Unfortunately, once we started producing freight, the chain started at the wrong end of the island. I have begun moving the galleons to make a new chain to Spain and Russia, but it will take a while to get in place.

Our reputation is very bad, so it is difficult to maintain a period of peace and also difficult to swap technologies.

Beeblebrox celebrated for three turns on 20% luxury, but I'm not sure how easy it will be to get it going again. In anycase, without a sewer system there is room for only one more citizen.

Good luck to whoever is next.

RJM at Sleepers

Attachment: so_a1875.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	19-09-2003 13:56									#358
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Jrabbit next ?

	19-09-2003 19:32									#359
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Confirmed.
D/L complete.

	23-09-2003 23:48									#360
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Started last night, painfully preparing sacrificial engineers so we can buy JSB as our 2nd WoW.
Hoping for some WLTP growth and techs through trade...