01-08-2003 18:17									#301
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quote: That's why you do the sacrificing in Republic & Democracy, when you can celebrate back up to the limit after building a Settler.

That's fine if/when you get to do something useful with your settlers. In this case, it's just 40 more shields, loss of production while celebrating forward (assuming all affected cities can in fact celebrate), plus, while the setts are being built, the loss of several turns' production toward something that's actually needed.

IMHO a very high opportunity cost.

	01-08-2003 21:28									#302
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Yes it could have a high opportunity cost, but with a celebrating republic or democracy, it might not be such an onerous burden -- if the two to three cities were building camels we’re talking about 75-100 spent per rush build times eight camels = 600-800 gold for Mikes. By swapping out six settlers for two camels we pay 50-75 per settler times six = 300 to 350, but saving 150 to 200 for the two camels. So effectively, Mikes build the human sacrifice way looks to be 20-25% more expensive, with the population delayed by three to six turns in a few cities, but that factor may not come into play with the government changes.

On the other hand using the “free coupon” to usurp the government switch opportunity cost looks like a better bargain. the payouts of camel delivery under despotism aren’t so hot (duh).

	02-08-2003 01:27									#303
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Sorry, archer, I didn't understand your calculation

	02-08-2003 11:11									#304
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I'm not sure who is up next, but whoever it is, here are some suggestions for redistributing workers before hitting enter from JRabbit's save.

Silly Walks: grassland -> ocean
Monty Python: grassland -> ocean
Fright Wig: Elvis -> ocean
Bozo: Elvis and 1 grassland -> einsteins
Beeblebrox: 2 grassland -> ocean
Goodie: grassland -> ocean

These changes would increase income from 37 to 40 per turn and increase science from 120 to 132. They would reduce or eliminate food surplusses although in most cases further population growth would cause disorder. There would still be enough surplus for Beeblebrox to fill the food box. It may be worth increasing the luxury rate to get lots of cities celebrating, but I haven't investigated this.

RJM at Sleepers (who now sits back wondering if he will be on the end of "robust criticism").

	02-08-2003 18:16									#305
	Put an end to popups!

Sorry, LF, I got too fancy for my own good.

5 Caravans × 50 each = 250
6 Settlers disbanded × 20 each = 120
400 - 250 - 120 = 30 shields left to account for
I'm certain you can accumulate that while other cities are inc rushing Sets or 'vans.

	02-08-2003 18:52									#306
	Inflate your Upload Space

Perfectly clear now
(and I don't wish to start another discussion about the comparative cost of building a camel and building a settler )

	04-08-2003 18:39									#307
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Old n Slow -- Trucks drive west
STYOM -- Research techs in order
atawa -- Must change government every four years (oedo year)
Straybow -- Sacrifice a builder (settler or engineer) with each happiness improvement (Temple, Col, Cath), and a builder per camel for each happiness wonder
rjmatsleepers -- Always have a palace under construction.
Jrabbit -- MUST ignore (and document) one of the other rules (for one turn) during the player set of turns.
La Fayette -- units with move=1 move vert/horizontally, units with move = 2 or 3 on the diagonal
BobSmurf42 -- Cycle through the governments when changing
atomant -- Build units with a defensive attitude until Leadership (no Horse, Cat, Char, Ele, Knight, and Cruc, (Cannons delayed))

8 turns, please.

	05-08-2003 11:20									#308
	Inflate your Upload Space

Soupy LF comes to power and notices that the previous leader has very nicely prepared the building of Mike.
Unfortunately...
Mike is already built...
in Zimbabwe

We shall be compelled to find another direct path towards happiness.
More news later.

	05-08-2003 13:22									#309
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It appears that the French are 9 techs ahead of us.
We have 2 strong weapons: '5 moves' caravels (grace to Magellan = thank you LF ) and clever diplomats.
Soupy LF therefore decides that our main research center will be dips onboard caravels.

Main events:

1822: Mono discovered; Sanitation started.

1824: Our valiant dragoons take Old Chuckles (and the French garrison gives us Conscription just before surrendering).

1826: Fierce battles between Old Chuckles and Avignon. We lose 2 dragoons and the French lose 4.

1832: Our wicked diplo 'negociates' Economics in Avignon.

1836: We 'acquire' University in Paris and Magnetism in Tours. All soupy caravels sail at full speed towards our main island, in order to be turned to peaceful '6 moves' galleons. One dip travels north ON PURPOSE.

Soupy LF retires, happy to notice that we are now 5 techs behind the French and we have a horde of dips ready to sail onboard swift galleons and close the gap

	05-08-2003 13:25									#310
	Increase Your PM Length

The Save

Attachment: so_a1836.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	05-08-2003 13:26									#311
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Mike is already built... in Zimbabwe More news later.

It wasn't me I swear, I am not even in the country at the moment

	05-08-2003 18:03									#312
	Er, uh.... Inflate your Upload Space

Very nice turns, La Fayette. Excellent tech progress, plus the successful repatriation of Old Chuckles!

quote: Unfortunately... Mike is already built... in Zimbabwe

I'm mystified, I must admit. Was it not on the build queue? I don't rmember seeing it on the WoW list, and never got a notice that it was "nearly completed."

Perhaps I was just seeing what I wanted to see...

Oh, and atomant -- That's just what a saboteur would say...
(Any idea when you'll be back in action?)

	05-08-2003 20:18									#313
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Jr
You should have a save (automatic) giving you the picture a few years sooner than 1820 and telling you whether the Zulus already had Mike then.

Atomant
Welcome back, even if you are beyond the border

	05-08-2003 20:49									#314
	Put an end to popups!

Yes, I have saves from every turn. I'll check to see just how Silly I've been...

	06-08-2003 13:03									#315
	What is happening here? Increase the size of your Attachments

We have an entertainer in Bozo that would give 6 extra science and 1 extra food working an ocean tile.

Similarly we have an an entertainer in Wabbit that would give 3 extra science and 1 extra food on an ocean tile.

We are wasting 6 shields to build a galleon in Fright Wig that will not be able to leave until someone is prepared to break a rule to let it out.

And Sticky Moose is about to revolt and have its musketeer disbanded because it lacks shields.

I'd love to hear the explanation.

RJM at Sleepers

	06-08-2003 15:24									#316
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I've got one - it's a silly game!

	06-08-2003 15:25									#317
	Re: What is happening here? Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers I'd love to hear the explanation. RJM at Sleepers

Here it is:

When playing succession games, I don't usually micromanage a lot on the very last turn, since my successor may have other ideas.

This is the explanation for the Elvises in Bozo and Wabbit. You are perfectly right: ocean workers would be better.

The shortage in Sticky Moose is a mistake (I must have been in a hurry to post the results and didn't check all cities with enough care ).

The galleon in Fright Wig will be free to sail anywhere, just like any other galleon (and also the caravels previously, grace to Magellan that I had built on my previous turn ).

If you reread the rules, you will notice that units with 4 moves and more are free to move as they will

	06-08-2003 15:35									#318
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BTW the 3 diplomats in Wabbit are intended to 'acquire' 3 more techs in Chartres, Marseille and Lyon.

	06-08-2003 17:48									#319
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quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers We are wasting 6 shields to build a galleon in Fright Wig that will not be able to leave until someone is prepared to break a rule to let it out.

But the La Fayette Rule states,

quote: La Fayette -- units with move=1 move vert/horizontally, units with move = 2 or 3 on the diagonal

Galleons movement factor = 4 iirc, so what's the problem? Move however you want, not prohibited imho. I can't speak to your other issues, rjm@, but just wanted to point out that no rule would be broken by moving a galleon.

Also on the rules tip, this from Straybow...

quote: Amendment: Happiness wonders must be built entirely by disbanding Set/Engrs (stockpile, switch to wonder, disband all in one turn)!!! Edit:On further reflection I amend the Human Sacrifice Rule again to be not quite so extreme on the Happiness Wonders. Only one sacrifice per 70 shields cost should be required, rounded up. So, This amounts to one sacrifice paired with each camel/freight worth of investment.

(Posted fyi to all, cuz I just didn't remember the level of detail in that silly rule. )

	07-08-2003 10:59									#320
	Re: Re: What is happening here? Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette The galleon in Fright Wig will be free to sail anywhere . If you reread the rules, you will notice that units with 4 moves and more are free to move as they will.

I suppose I should have realised that La Fayette would know his own rule. I had it mis-remembered as units with more than 1 move go diagonally. Sorry LF

RJM at Sleepers

	07-08-2003 20:57									#321
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Rabbit, still in Luanda, got about three weeks left to go (with luck!!!!!!) anymore here and I will go (further) insane, still the night clubs are good!!!!!

	12-08-2003 19:49									#322
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hmmm, looks like we haven't heard from Bob_Smurf for a while... atomant is still suffering from game withdrawal... looks like it is time for some Old n Slow action (or is that some sort of oxymoron?)

	13-08-2003 01:06									#323
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quote: Originally posted by atomant Rabbit, still in Luanda, got about three weeks left to go (with luck!!!!!!) anymore here and I will go (further) insane, still the night clubs are good!!!!!

You have special golf clubs to use at night????????

	14-08-2003 13:01									#324
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit You have special golf clubs to use at night????????

I have found a new use for the pitching wedge

	15-08-2003 15:56									#325
	Suffering from ads?

Next oedo is 1842 (this should therefore be the first turn of a four turn set.)

We're weak, honorable; have 11 cities, same as French (the only embassy we have...)

Hmmm two settlers, none in production; 18 Wonders built (one more avail -- AS) -- we have two.

We only know three other ai 's & we are at war with all of them.

Six Caravels -- all causing severe unhappiness for our democracy

Disband Sticky Moose's caravel so the city doesn't blow up -- now down to five.

France knows Metal, Sea, RR, Pott, Phy.

SW buys the dip. Toggle to 6.3.1



1838 -- Goodie finishes a dip, starts a palace. Silly makes a dip.

Boz caravel disbanded in MP (shields are shifted for galleon first). Toggle back to 3.3.4

(France changed to Democracy)

1840 -- Our vet dragoon smacks a couple of French dragoons.

1842 -- Verdun builds City Walls (Revolt Year)
**Time to revolt -- (French dev Ind. -- Fr & Spanish both start WS)

1844 -- Violate BobSmurf42's rule & choose to cycle to Democracy. Now at 6 galleons & only one caravel (Leiden). WLtPD in Sticky Moose.
Discover San, Opt for Exp over Metal, Pott, Tactics, & T G.

Steal Ind from Fr in Marseilles (No option in Chartres, Tours)

Hut = Bob Hope; found Bullwinkle

(Sioux completes WS; Fr & Spa abandon)

1846 -- Steal Physics from Lyons; Steal Pott from Rhiems (No option in Paris)

1848 -- Build a couple of Settlers

1850 -- Drop off a Settler on an island (to found another city.)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes -- Two settlers on a frigate are hoping to found cities on the island SE of Sticky Moose.

My hope is that the galleon SE of Verdun might be able to move Old Chuckles's Settler to a different diagonal for some development.

I left the game in anarchy -- as I was unsure about the next player's choice of government -- if that player chooses to "use the coupon" to Republic, then the mid shift naturally goes to Democracy (my strong recommendation) -- otherwise that player is looking at Despotism followed by Monarchy.

Of the few settlers I built, the cities shrank, then grew back via WLtPD -- so colleseums, & cathedrals, & aqueducts may make sense for some of our better locations.

I chose to set up the boats going NE for some techs from France (little did I remember that some of the cities have already been visited.) and dropped off some settlers accordingly -- but there are some nice city sites to the NW -- west of Old Chuckles.

Attachment: silly 1850.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	17-08-2003 14:45									#326
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When I consulted the high council, they were all talking at once; the military advisor rattles his sword and the foreign advisor removes her head band, shakes her long hair and stomps off. I presume this is the standard high council during anarchy, but I hadn't seen it before - rather well done I thought.

More seriously, the revolution option was "greyed out".

quote: Originally posted by Old n Slow I left the game in anarchy -- as I was unsure about the next player's choice of government -- if that player chooses to "use the coupon" to Republic, then the mid shift naturally goes to Democracy (my strong recommendation) -- otherwise that player is looking at Despotism followed by Monarchy.

If the next player has the same problem, we need to discuss whether we use cheat mode to get a new government; ask Old n Slow to replay the last year from the auto save or simply accept it as a punishment for all our silliness.

RJM at Sleepers

	19-08-2003 18:28									#327
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Nope that's standard High Council behavior in anarchy. Next player gets to "choose" Despotism (or use the coupon).

	25-08-2003 08:54									#328
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My turn, it looks like. This may take a bit of time... I want to get something significant accomplished in spite of all the silly rules, which will require some thought.

	25-08-2003 10:26									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man My turn, it looks like. This may take a bit of time... I want to get something significant accomplished in spite of all the silly rules, which will require some thought.

Amen to that.

My impression is that fewer wars and more trade would do us the world of good.

RJM at Sleepers

	25-08-2003 17:55									#330
	Got spare money?

I think that we can turn this one around -- a few more cities would be nice and trade might be key.