29-03-2003 04:24									#61
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Ned:

well, in coming into the battlefiels, the US shelled and bombed thier villages: were they supposed to be static? Also, te endless reels of film we have of US troops coming in is as good as evidence as what one author states.

quote: Ditto the France's historical anti-Semitism. I am not surprised at all that the average Frenchman stands asside allows the Muslim immigrants to beat up a Jewish kid. Is there anyone here on this forum genuinely surprised at this?

As you can't point to any instances when a Jews was being beaten in public and no other came to help, I have to call this one out. Of course France has a history of anti-semitism, bu that did not stop France form, after the destruction of the Jews in WW2 from becoming home to the largest Jewish community in Europe. If the French are so anti-semitic, why would they vote for Jewish politicans to gain high posts? There is a significant difference between some level of endemic anti-semitism from the bottom and endemic, state sanctioned and championed behavior as in nazi germany.

Also, France's actions, such s liking its economy to its neighbors, replacing its currency for a common European one, allowing large amounts of immigrants and so forth all are direct evidence to counter any notion that they are moving towards the sort of endemic and openly aggresive nationalism that leads to facism. Given how strong the left wing votes in france were, I thinki saying that somehow France is moving towards fascism is wrong.

NO, france is not moving towards facism, anymore then we in the US are.

	29-03-2003 04:34									#62
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quote: Ditto the France's historical anti-Semitism. I am not surprised at all that the average Frenchman stands asside allows the Muslim immigrants to beat up a Jewish kid. Is there anyone here on this forum genuinely surprised at this?

What do you base this on? The two articles in the beginning show a completely different picture - one where non-muslim French have organized a public education campaign to combat the rising phenonemon.

quote: We all know where the combination of nationalism and racism leads, do we not? We fought the "fascists" in Japan and Germany and Italy in the 1940's. We may have to do it again. That is a snake that will not die, it appears.

So the US is going to attack the muslim population of France next? How will that work, exactly? Carpet bombing of muslim neighbourhods in Marseilles, perhaps?

	29-03-2003 04:40									#63
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BTW, why not go to the root of the problem? If the french jewry openly dissociated itself from Israel, the reason for the muslim communities anger would be gone.

	29-03-2003 04:50									#64
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quote: BTW, why not go to the root of the problem? If the french jewry openly dissociated itself from Israel, the reason for the muslim communities anger would be gone.

Well, that cuts both ways.

Suppose the Muslims were being persecuted.
Could then the French say, if the French Muslims openly seperated from the other Muslims, that they would not be attacked?

It's just another round of blame the victim, Cybergnu.

For that matter, I don't care if it's a Muslim or a Jew being persecuted in France, there is no difference. Both are wrong for the same reasons.

	29-03-2003 05:14									#65
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quote: Well, that cuts both ways. Suppose the Muslims were being persecuted. Could then the French say, if the French Muslims openly seperated from the other Muslims, that they would not be attacked?

I don't think this is a realistic supposition.

If the arab community in the US openly supported Al-Quida, what do you think would happen then?

quote: It's just another round of blame the victim, Cybergnu. For that matter, I don't care if it's a Muslim or a Jew being persecuted in France, there is no difference. Both are wrong for the same reasons.

In a perfect world, no one would be persecuted for their religion. But in the real world, religion and politics mix... And basically, this is a political issue, not a religious one.

Once we've established this, we can turn to the question of how to stop political violence. No one seems to complain when arab groups beat up some skinheads... Or the other way around... Furthermore, no one is suggesting educating arabs to not hate skinheads. The solution is always to educate the skinheads, is it not?

The skinheads are hated for what they do to the arab communites in France. The jewry are hated for support they show to their brethren in Israel, who purport much worse acts on the arab's brethren in Palestine.

So the least we can ask for is for the French Jewry to distance themselves from the despiccable acts done to arabs, don't you think?

	29-03-2003 05:27									#66
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So, CyberGnu, do you think that violence is not unmoral, in our real word, when it is directed against people who have ideas you don't agree with? Do you think that, when a jew is attacked by muslim is the jew to be blamed?

The skinheads DIRECTLY attack the muslims, they do it all weekends and the main characteristic of a skinhead is to HATE people from other races; but to say that the French jews attacks (even indirectly) the muslims is somwehat incorrect, isn't it? To hate muslims isn't a part of jewry religion...

	29-03-2003 05:43									#67
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Yaroslav, you misunderstand me. I don't support attacking skinheads, nor do I support attacking jews. But I think that to eliminate violence to both groups we must educate them... as long as they direct violence to a group,either by themselves or by proxy, they will be the recipients of retaliations.

quote: The skinheads DIRECTLY attack the muslims, they do it all weekends and the main characteristic of a skinhead is to HATE people from other races;

Actually, this isn't true. Most skins hang out becuase of the social life, to belong to a group. Some of them are violent. But not all, of in my experience, even most.

	29-03-2003 05:53									#68
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Yaroslav, you misunderstand me. I don't support attacking skinheads, nor do I support attacking jews. But I think that to eliminate violence to both groups we must educate them... as long as they direct violence to a group,either by themselves or by proxy, they will be the recipients of retaliations.

But, as I told you, the jews, as a group, aren't directing violence against muslims, are they? In my humble opinion, they aren't. In fact, it's very, very difficult to speak of all jews as a single entity , because there a lot of different opinions inside jews. I dare to speak about skins as a single group because I think that a part of their ideology is to hate.

quote: Actually, this isn't true. Most skins hang out becuase of the social life, to belong to a group. Some of them are violent. But not all, of in my experience, even most.

I agree with you that some (maybe many) of the people that gets into skins do it because they need a group, but this doesn't change the ideology of that groups, does it?

EDIT: English is difficult for me! Some gramatical errors fixed.

	29-03-2003 06:38									#69
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quote: But, as I told you, the jews, as a group, aren't directing violence against muslims, are they? In my humble opinion, they aren't.

It all depends on how much responsibility you put on waging war by proxy, doesn't it? And if supporting a regime that continally oppresses a group of different ethnicity isn't expressing hate against that group, what is?

quote: I agree with you that some (maybe many) of the people that gets into skins do it because they need a group, but this doesn't change the ideology of that groups, does it?

True, but does that really matter in this context? If your thesis is that each individual should be counted a separate person, then we must also diffrentiate between skins who are skins because they hate non-aryans, and skins who are skins because they like the music and the parties, who are skins because they feel they need the protection and security afforded by belonging to a strong group, who are skins just to belong to anything...

But if your thesis is that all skins can be counted as a group due to the ideology, then we should also require that the Jewry as a GROUP speaks out against Israel.

	29-03-2003 08:51									#70
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Well, CyberGnu, we all know that fixing the ME situation will go a long way to tone down and eliminate the Muslim violence against Jews. But, I don't think the attacks on the particular Jewish kid could have been prevented if this kid was anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian. To the Muslims, all they cared about was that he was Jewish.

But to the French that did not help the kid, there is no excuse. Preaching non violence to the Muslim population has nothing to do with the anti-Semitism of the French people illustrated by the story.

As to France's integration with Europe being indicative of a weakening of French nationalism, what I see is that France wants to dominate Europe and be its boss. Is this not true?

	29-03-2003 10:30									#71
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu BTW, why not go to the root of the problem? If the french jewry openly dissociated itself from Israel, the reason for the muslim communities anger would be gone.

So basically, think what the Muslims want you to think and then they won't attack you?

	29-03-2003 10:43									#72
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That shut the mother****er up for a while.

	29-03-2003 13:10									#73
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quote: BTW, why not go to the root of the problem? If the french jewry openly dissociated itself from Israel, the reason for the muslim communities anger would be gone.

Would you reccomend the Muslims in France to openly dissacosiate themselves from the Muslim/Arab countries if Jews start to harass them?

	29-03-2003 14:05									#74
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quote: Well, CyberGnu, we all know that fixing the ME situation will go a long way to tone down and eliminate the Muslim violence against Jews. But, I don't think the attacks on the particular Jewish kid could have been prevented if this kid was anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian. To the Muslims, all they cared about was that he was Jewish.

Sadly, no. But this does not in any way detract from the responsibility for the French Jewry as a group to distance themselves from reprehensible views.

quote: But to the French that did not help the kid, there is no excuse. Preaching non violence to the Muslim population has nothing to do with the anti-Semitism of the French people illustrated by the story.

I still don't understand where you got this from. What bystanders? Who is illustrated?

quote: As to France's integration with Europe being indicative of a weakening of French nationalism, what I see is that France wants to dominate Europe and be its boss. Is this not true?

Well, who wouldn't? But ambition itself is not a crime. It's what principles are sacrificed in order to fulfill your ambitions that determine whether what you are doing is immoral or not.

	29-03-2003 14:06									#75
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Jaguar, as per Mings request, I won't dignify you with a reply.

	29-03-2003 14:09									#76
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Eli:

quote: Would you reccomend the Muslims in France to openly dissacosiate themselves from the Muslim/Arab countries if Jews start to harass them?

I would recommend the muslim/arab community to distance themselves from all reprehensible views. For example, I would recommend them to distance themselves from Al-Quida. I would recommend them to distance themselves from the practice of honor killings. As far as I know, all arab communities outside of the middle east has done so.

	29-03-2003 14:35									#77
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Jaguar, as per Mings request, I won't dignify you with a reply.

Good request. 2 posts and I was well on the way to starting a flame war. Sorry.


But you're still wrong.

	29-03-2003 14:41									#78
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Nope

	29-03-2003 14:49									#79
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Hah! You dignified me with a reply! I knew you'd have to do that because, like me, you never admit it when you're wrong.

Anyway, back on subject:

quote: I would recommend the muslim/arab community to distance themselves from all reprehensible views.

Who defines what views are "reprehensible?"

	29-03-2003 14:51									#80
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For example, suppose that a white supremacy organization decides that Black people should not be allowed to vote. They consider any other views reprehensible. Does that give them the right to beat up people who disagree with them?

	29-03-2003 14:57									#81
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No, it doesn't give anyone the right to beat up anyone else. But the problem will never go away unless we address ALL causes.

Reprehensible: for example, any view that supports oppression.

	29-03-2003 14:59									#82
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quote: Hah! You dignified me with a reply! I knew you'd have to do that because, like me, you never admit it when you're wrong.

? I figured you apologized. If you are going to be civil, I can argue.

	29-03-2003 15:03									#83
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu No, it doesn't give anyone the right to beat up anyone else. But the problem will never go away unless we address ALL causes. Reprehensible: for example, any view that supports oppression.

What about, for example, abortion? It is oppression of the mother (or would-be mother) to deny her the right to choose, but it is also oppression of the infant to kill it. It's a lose-lose situation that results in oppression no matter what. Under that definition of Reprehensible, any opinion on abortion is reprehensible.

	29-03-2003 15:30									#84
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu BTW, why not go to the root of the problem? If the french jewry openly dissociated itself from Israel, the reason for the muslim communities anger would be gone.

Are you trying to explain and justify bigotry?

Seems to me that the Jew in the story had already disassociated himself from the french jewry and that didn't help him, did it?

There are plenty of muslim communities and peoples that don't condone or participate in such actions.

	29-03-2003 16:07									#85
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Ned: According to my mother, who lived in France for quite a while (along with me, as a matter of fact... but I don't remember very much about it), a prime reason why the French resent Americans was that 'they dropped their bombs from too high'. Apparently the French see this as the Americans not having the balls to risk their pilots in order to save the lives of French people.

	29-03-2003 16:09									#86
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GT: That would be rather funny, blaming the americans for not having balls to fight the Germans, while they didn't have any balls themselves.

	29-03-2003 16:26									#87
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They resent the fact that the Americans flew high enough to avoid AA fire, meaning that they often demolished large areas of the cities they were bombing.

And do recall that a great many of them did have the balls to fight back, even when the military had given up - which would require rather more courage than fighting a conventional war.

	29-03-2003 16:55									#88
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Gen. Tacticus:
Still, the majority of their army actually fought against the allies in various locations in the world, in africa and the ME.

They should better look at what they did during the war, then judge the americans.

	29-03-2003 17:12									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Still, the majority of their army actually fought against the allies in various locations in the world, in africa and the ME.

The majority, are you sure ? The free french army, made with servicemen who escaped from France, fought with the allies in various locations of the world too.

And about those who fought against...very sad indeed, but don't forget the current government of Vichy made a lot of propaganda to show how the allies were evil etc...
What's more, this government was headed by Marechal Petain, a national hero of WW1 considered as the "saviour of the patry" (but who appeared to be the worst antisemitist moron later, yes). So it is not so surprising

	29-03-2003 17:14									#90
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quote: Gen. Tacticus: Still, the majority of their army actually fought against the allies in various locations in the world, in africa and the ME. They should better look at what they did during the war, then judge the americans.

True enough. I attended a lecture a while ago about how deep the collaboration with the Nazis actually was, and how much it's been suppressed, which was pretty damn disturbing.

Edited to add quote - anyoen else noticed their internet connections slwoing down lately?