31-03-2003 06:35									#121
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Spiffor, Good on the racisim issue.

Now, explain why France is dictating morality to the US,to Europe and to Israel? France certainly is not trying to reach a concensus view.

	31-03-2003 06:41									#122
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quote: I knew a black racist skinhead, that is, racists against other Blacks. He didn't just have issues, he had a whole freakin' subscription.

Was he blind?

	31-03-2003 06:44									#123
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quote: Was he blind?

	31-03-2003 06:46									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Now, explain why France is dictating morality to the US,to Europe and to Israel? France certainly is not trying to reach a concensus view.

It is purely my opinion, but I think out of habit. French arrogance has for long manifested itself by criticizing the others, rather than boasting our own achievements. There was a thread about jingoism some time ago, and someone had it in few words :

"The Americans argue they are better
The French argue you are worse"

As far as I have seen, this is very true. As far as I recall, the French and their politicians have always enjoyed giving lessons to foreigners (the biggest examples that I can think of were about the election of Haider's party in Austria and the election of Berlusconi in Italy).

There may be complex geopolitical reasons for us to dictate morality to other countries, but I wouldn't be surprised if our ego issues had much to do with it.

	31-03-2003 07:16									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Cybergnu: Sorry, but the Israeli/Palestinian issue is hardly a black and white issue. You may see the Jewish position on it as reprehensible, but then many people consider the pro-palestinian position to be reprehensible. The same could apply to any number of issues, many consider the pro-choice position on abortion to be reprehensible and equivalent to supporting mass murder. But people should be able to express their views on any issue without fear of violence.

You picked up my argument where I left off.

	31-03-2003 07:25									#126
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To their credit the anti-semetic attacks which do occur in France don't seem to be coming from traditional "Frenchmen" but from more recent immigraints of middleeastern decent. Arab culture seems to to have an streak of especially virialent racism and xenopobia in it.

	31-03-2003 07:29									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Arab culture seems to to have an streak of especially virialent racism and xenopobia in it.

While the antisemitism seems to become part of the Muslim gangsta culture in France and seems to become widely accepted in the Muslim world at large, the Arab culture has no more intrinsic intolerance than the western culture. The extent of intolerance towards others has always been mostly motivated by a political agenda or a historical grudge. Intolerance as such (whatever the extent) exists in every society without exception.

	31-03-2003 07:32									#128
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It exists in every society but you must admite that some societies exhibit it more promenitly then others.

	31-03-2003 07:38									#129
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Yes, and I admit the muslims are exhibiting their intolerance much more than other societies these days. But such a high intolerance doesn't come from the essence of Islam (or Arabic culture), but from more mundane origins, like politics and history.
My point is : it is possible to adress this intolerance, it's not like the Arabs are doomed to be more intolerant than others until the end of the times.

	31-03-2003 20:52									#130
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Spiffor, et al., that the Muslim attacks on Jews are politically motivated is central to our goals in Iraq. We believe a liberal, democratic Iraq will lead to pro-West feelings. Such an Iraq would, I believe, be much more willing to settle with Israel. We "hope" that genuine peace will lead to a dramatic reduction in Muslim anger against Israel and the US.

	31-03-2003 21:45									#131
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I knew a black racist skinhead, that is, racists against other Blacks. He didn't just have issues, he had a whole freakin' subscription.

I've been asking my friends about whether they know any story of this kind, and my sister told me that he knew one gypsy skin. Anyway, as you have said, it seems to me that they hate (or act as if they hated), even when they are from other races

quote: In the US, Jews who are critical of Israel are routinely called self-hating Jews.

I can't speak for USA, but I'm pretty sure it's not routine in Europe...

	31-03-2003 21:49									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ned We believe a liberal, democratic Iraq will lead to pro-West feelings

I agree with that, and I think that it's the root of the problems: in my humble opinion, it's commom in oppressive dictatorship like the kinds of dictatorship arabs are suffering rigth know to use the hate against Western socities to make the population lost the focus in the absence of freedom

On the other hand, Turkey (I know it is not a perfect democracy, and they have to solve some points concercing human rigths) has not so much hate, in my humble opinion.

	31-03-2003 22:11									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It exists in every society but you must admite that some societies exhibit it more promenitly then others.

The level fo intolerance and violence against others shown in the Arab world are no worse, and in many cases less, than the levels of secterian violence you see in many other parts of the world. What was the last time you saw thousands die in secterian riots in an Arab state?

The causes for these types of violence are not "culturally linked" or culture secific in my view: they are universal, and based on socio-economic variables. Honestly, do you think if all those Arab youths lived in suburban housing and had access to better education and access to jobs that they would behave the same? Very rarely now a days does violence have actual cultural roots, as opposed to political or socio-economic, and ussually such violence is within the group (specially against women).

	31-03-2003 22:16									#134
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quote: The level fo intolerance and violence against others shown in the Arab world are no worse, and in many cases less, than the levels of secterian violence you see in many other parts of the world. What was the last time you saw thousands die in secterian riots in an Arab state

What was the last time you saw sections in an arab state?

	31-03-2003 22:34									#135
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"sections"?

Well, in Egypt you have the Coptic christian minority. In many arab states you have different tribes, and in a few you have the always popular Shia-Sunni split.

The Arab world is no more violent than the rest of the third world that has increasingly been left behind. Which to me is evidence that the source of violence is not, as Oedin would say, something cultural about Arabs, but cause by more universal Political and Socio-economic factors. If that is true, then it is possible to try to limit or end the violnece using soci-economic and political means,without having to worry or demand some tectonic cultural shift.

	31-03-2003 22:39									#136
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? economical help? we saw how well that worked for Egypt.

	01-04-2003 00:31									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel ? economical help? we saw how well that worked for Egypt.

Azazel, about Egypt. Do they have a real political system there? All I see is a President who seems to never leave once in power - like Saddam.

I suggest a major cause for backwardness in Arabia is the lack of democracy, not a lack of money. Some Arab countries are quite well off financially, but are still backward because they do not have true freedom.

The problem with US aid to Egypt is that is permits the government to survive without political reform.

	01-04-2003 00:39									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel ? economical help? we saw how well that worked for Egypt.

Money straight to the governemnt to arm itself and economic aid are not the same thing. Besides, Egypt is no more violent than India, and plenty of Israelis go to India for a good time.

	01-04-2003 00:49									#139
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If I recall it correctly, last time Mubarak was "elected" with 99% of polls. It is rumored that he wants to take his son as the next president...

	01-04-2003 00:50									#140
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quote: and plenty of Israelis go to India for a good time.

hehe, so you heard, huh?

I was in Egypt. the place is dirt poor. I am not saying that it is violent now, and I am hope I am wrong about the future, but it seems like a keg of gunpoweder, just waiting.

	01-04-2003 01:16									#141
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Clearly, Egypt has no political freedom. I also read that it is a socialist nation and that the only jobs for the educated are government jobs. There is no effective private enterprise system.

If this is a accurate protrayal, Egypt is ripe for a violent revolution if they do not start fixing thing voluntarily.

	01-04-2003 01:24									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel hehe, so you heard, huh? I was in Egypt. the place is dirt poor. I am not saying that it is violent now, and I am hope I am wrong about the future, but it seems like a keg of gunpoweder, just waiting.

Which is exactly why I don't back this war: when the poor of Egypt see what they see on their TV, it weakens the support for those liberals and free-market spokesmen who are trying to modernize Egypt and restrenghtens the hands of the Islamist. But in fact Egypt is no poorer than India really, another powerkeg waiting to go off, and a much bigger one at that.

If we want to democratize the ME, the place to start is Egypt: for the last century it has been the vanguard of Arab thought. But isntead we side with Mubarak and his security forces hping they do keep the Islamist down. We are told this admin. wants to democratize the ME. the proof of that is not how it handles undemocratic enemies, but undemocratic friends.

	01-04-2003 01:54									#143
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quote: it weakens the support for those liberals and free-market spokesmen who are trying to modernize Egypt and restrenghtens the hands of the Islamist.

I HONESTLY don't hear of any. the place is like an ice structure on the sun. rigid, slowly melting away and could collapse anyday. The economy there sucks. simply sucks.

quote: But in fact Egypt is no poorer than India really, another powerkeg waiting to go off, and a much bigger one at that.

Actually, despite having a very evil and immoral religion, the place is relatively quite, amazingly enough. The only reason I can see danger, is the muslim-hindu conflict.

An amazing statistic: to a question "Are you perfectly satisfied with your life?", the number of positive respondents in India was the 3rd highest in the world after USA, and Britain, 28%.

quote: We are told this admin. wants to democratize the ME. the proof of that is not how it handles undemocratic enemies, but undemocratic friends.

Agreed. Sadly, I don't see anyway the US interfering ( peacefully!) in Egypt can improve the situation.

	02-04-2003 02:26									#144
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Actually I think that you're incorrect.

If there are undemocratic friends, that can be peacefull coerced to democracy - that's a policy to folllow. That's what should be done with Iran and Egypt and Jordan is half-way there.

But Iraq and Syria are lost.

In any case, I'm all for benevolent dictatorships. I think that the dictatorial rule over Egypt and Jordan helped both the peoples of the respective countries, and us (Israel and the USA) much more than it did harm.

Last edited by Sirotnikov on 02-04-2003 at 02:37

	02-04-2003 02:37									#145
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What was the last time you saw thousands die in secterian riots in an Arab state?

The decade long orgy of mass sectarian violence which was Lebennon comes to mind the systematic oppression and terrorization of Christian Assyrians in Iraq, the periodic yet extreamly savage fights between sunni and shi-ite, and the (ok not Arab but still middleeastern) systematic oppression of Zoroastrian, Christian, Jewish, and Sunni minorities in Iran.

Every society has the maladity of hate but the middle east has a worse case then just about everyone else.

	02-04-2003 05:38									#146
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Rothy"

quote: CyberGnu, you cannot excuse the discraceful actions of Moslem's by saying the French Jews should not associate themselves with Isreal. Yes, I agree free can go too far but it is NOT too far to associate one's self with thier 'home' country (in this case the innocent lad didnt even do this!). Remember what Afganistan did to America - thier terrorist harbouring led to Sept 11 so should Arabs who originally originated from Afganistan deny thier country??

They don't have to dissociate themselves with Israel par se, only Israels actions.

There is an enormous difference between supporting your country and supporting its practices. If your home country is engaging in a practice that is destructive, your patriotic duty is to oppose it...

	02-04-2003 05:43									#147
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BD:

quote: Abortion is opressive to the baby it kills.

Except that one cannot be oppressed wihout sentience...

I think this is a tangential discussion, and should be kept to a different thread, though.

quote: There is a difference between an insult and taking a position on the Israel/Palestine issue which is hardly a black and white measure of opression. For instance, Cybergnu, you would not say it was reprehensible to fly the Palestinian flag would you, even though the Pals are currently engaged in suicide bombings with polls showing a majority of Palestinians supporting it.

If the palestinians weren't trying to resist occupation, I would.

	02-04-2003 05:47									#148
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quote: If they can't differentiate between skinheads spouting hatred or performing criminal acts and those who are doing so because it's a fashion statement (or the haircut went a little further than they wanted to ) then yes, I would.

Well, then. You have no problem holding the group resonsible for the political views they espouse.

	02-04-2003 05:48									#149
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Chegitz:

quote: What?

Cbeast? Que?

	02-04-2003 05:54									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The decade long orgy of mass sectarian violence which was Lebennon comes to mind the systematic oppression and terrorization of Christian Assyrians in Iraq, the periodic yet extreamly savage fights between sunni and shi-ite, and the (ok not Arab but still middleeastern) systematic oppression of Zoroastrian, Christian, Jewish, and Sunni minorities in Iran. Every society has the maladity of hate but the middle east has a worse case then just about everyone else.

Yeah, except Latin America, South Asia, and Africa..besides those places, the Arab world is definitely the worst. Oh, and the "systematic oppresion of minorities in Iran", where is the evidence? Lats i heard 13 Jews were tired as spies, out of the largest Jewish community in the ME outside of Irsael, and several of them were freed recently. So fi you want to claim "systematic oppresion" you will have to give me some proof.