29-03-2003 17:27									#91
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus True enough. I attended a lecture a while ago about how deep the collaboration with the Nazis actually was, and how much it's been suppressed, which was pretty damn disturbing.

What i wanted to show is that those soldiers who fought agaisnt the allies weren't fundamentally antisemitists or anti-allies...they just had to obey the orders, and the fact that they were given by a former marechal, hero of WW1, was inciting them a bit more.

Same thing for the people in France during WW2 : the majority of them weren't neither heroic resistants, nor collaborationists (which is quite logical after all).

	29-03-2003 17:30									#92
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I know that. The same could be said of quite a sizeable part of the axis armies. Rommel was not a nazi, for example.

Still, hating the americans because "they didn't risk their lives enough" sound very cheeky.

	29-03-2003 17:33									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Still, hating the americans because "they didn't risk their lives enough" sound very cheeky.

Absolutely. to this kind of comment.

	29-03-2003 17:36									#94
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Sorry, that was in response to Azazel - just that you got yours in before mine and my connection was too slow to do anything until now.

	29-03-2003 17:38									#95
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Just a bit. ( I've got broadband )

	29-03-2003 18:03									#96
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quote: Absolutely. to this kind of comment.

While I agree with you, I expect they see it a bit differently. After all, it isn't us who had entire cities flattened in the course of being liberated from occupation.

	29-03-2003 22:27									#97
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Ned: According to my mother, who lived in France for quite a while (along with me, as a matter of fact... but I don't remember very much about it), a prime reason why the French resent Americans was that 'they dropped their bombs from too high'. Apparently the French see this as the Americans not having the balls to risk their pilots in order to save the lives of French people.

This is the first I heard of this. It seems like NAZI propaganda to me. I think the truth is that US bombs were only fairly accurate even given the Norden bombsight.

This kind of propaganda is very reminiscent of Iraqi propaganda that is today broadcast to the Arab world by Arab media as fact. Even after the war is over, it may take a while for the truth to be told to the Arab world. Still, the damage is done and may be permanent.

	29-03-2003 22:38									#98
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In contemplating the upcoming battle of Baghdad, I was thinking of what it would have been like had the Nazi's chosen to stand and fight in Rome and Paris. Those beautiful cities would have been destroyed like Warsaw and Berlin were later.

BTW, if the Nazi's take up positions in civilian areas and those civilian areas are destroyed, why is it the Allies fault that they were destroyed. I think the blame should be given to the Nazi's just like they should be given some credit for abandoning Rome and Paris without a fight.

Last edited by Ned on 29-03-2003 at 23:13

	29-03-2003 22:44									#99
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quote: While I agree with you, I expect they see it a bit differently. After all, it isn't us who had entire cities flattened in the course of being liberated from occupation.

Gen. Tac.: he's french, you know.

	29-03-2003 22:46									#100
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus True enough. I attended a lecture a while ago about how deep the collaboration with the Nazis actually was, and how much it's been suppressed, which was pretty damn disturbing.

It's not like France was alone in cozying up to the master race. http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

After the war, we brought hundreds of them back to the United States to help us with our anti-communist crusade.

	29-03-2003 22:47									#101
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CBEAST!

	29-03-2003 22:50									#102
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@that site.

	29-03-2003 23:30									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ned In contemplating the upcoming battle of Baghdad, I was thinking of what it would have been like had the Nazi chosen to stand and fight in Rome and Paris. Those beautiful cities would have been destroyed like Warsaw and Berlin were later. BTW, if the Nazi's take up positions in civilian areas and those civilian areas are destroyed, why is it the Allies fault that they were destroyed. I think the blame should be given to the Nazi's just like they should be given some credit for abandoning Rome and Paris without a fight.

I agree with you but in contrast to Gulf War II, WWII was a justified war in order to liberate Europe from brutal conquerors who were committing genocide.
Right now, the Americans are the attackers and invasors and the Iraqis are defending their country. Even though I hope the Americans will win the war, I still think that the war is not justified and even if Saddam is a cruel dictator, he was not an immediate threat to the world's peace and it will be impossible to force democracy upon the Iraqis.
So the war is absolutely senseless.

But back to topic: in Germany we do not have problems with violence of Muslims towards Jews since hardly any Jews still live in Germany (sad, but of course I understand why).
But there is a growing tension and resentment between the three large ethincal groups in Germany ("original" Germans, immigrants from Eastern Europe, and immigrants from Arabic countries).
In my opinion this problem is mostly due to the poor integration of the immigrants, many don't even speak German. I also think that Germany has accepted more immigrants than it could handle, we have the largest percentage (and absolute number) of foreigners in Europe (other than small countries like Luxemburg).

We should consider starting to chose our immigrants like the US do.

Yet there are other reasons as well: Some parts of Eastern Germany have really huge problems with Neonazis. The education system of the GDR failed there and since Eastern Germany has an average unemployment rate of about 18%, many teenagers do not have a prospects and are frustrated.
Right-wing parties like the NPD have had a rise in votes in the 90's but right now they are not gaining votes, they actually seem to be losing votes.

Overall I don't think that Europe has a big problem with racism but we must fight the roots of the racism that exists here.

	30-03-2003 03:28									#104
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu It all depends on how much responsibility you put on waging war by proxy, doesn't it? And if supporting a regime that continally oppresses a group of different ethnicity isn't expressing hate against that group, what is?

I'm not going to discuss about Israel, because it's off-topic to this disscusion. If you want to discuss about it, I'm pretty sure that we will meet in a ME east sooner than later. And there are a lot of people that know much more than I about the topic

quote: True, but does that really matter in this context? If your thesis is that each individual should be counted a separate person, then we must also diffrentiate between skins who are skins because they hate non-aryans, and skins who are skins because they like the music and the parties, who are skins because they feel they need the protection and security afforded by belonging to a strong group, who are skins just to belong to anything... But if your thesis is that all skins can be counted as a group due to the ideology, then we should also require that the Jewry as a GROUP speaks out against Israel.

I don't like to speak of people as a group, UNLESS we're speaking about the central element of the group, and the central group of skins is to hate non-aryans *** (see note below)

I know that with my English is difficult to understand my points, and even more, I'm not a great orator, but let's explain it with two question:

Would a skin be allowed to stay in a skin group after showing that he/she doesn't hate non-aryans?

Would a jew be not counted as a jew after attacking Israel?

The answer to the first question is yes and to the second no (in my humble opinion). So, it's normal that a muslim (or a jew) could verbally condemn ALL skins, becuase they always attack non-aryans (even when some of them doesn't feel hate towards non-aryans), but it is not fair to speak about jews as a group about Israel, because there are a lot of opinions about that issue in the jew comunity...

*** Note: Spaniards aren't aryans, but our skins doesn't hate white Spaniards: they hate jews, muslims, blacks; that's why I've care about saying that skins hate non-aryans... It varies from country to country, but they always hate the people that is different from the average

	30-03-2003 03:51									#105
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Cybergnu: Sorry, but the Israeli/Palestinian issue is hardly a black and white issue. You may see the Jewish position on it as reprehensible, but then many people consider the pro-palestinian position to be reprehensible. The same could apply to any number of issues, many consider the pro-choice position on abortion to be reprehensible and equivalent to supporting mass murder. But people should be able to express their views on any issue without fear of violence.

	30-03-2003 04:16									#106
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quote: This is the first I heard of this. It seems like NAZI propaganda to me. I think the truth is that US bombs were only fairly accurate even given the Norden bombsight.

They had whole cities flattened during the war. Do recall that during WWII, it was considered lucky if a bomb fell within a few miles of the target.

quote: BTW, if the Nazi's take up positions in civilian areas and those civilian areas are destroyed, why is it the Allies fault that they were destroyed. I think the blame should be given to the Nazi's just like they should be given some credit for abandoning Rome and Paris without a fight.

They weren't bombing Nazis in civilian areas, they were bombing Nazi targets and most of the bombs missed.

quote: Gen. Tac.: he's french, you know.

Sorry

quote: It's not like France was alone in cozying up to the master race. http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html After the war, we brought hundreds of them back to the United States to help us with our anti-communist crusade.

I'm well aware of that, but that wasn't what we were talking about.

	30-03-2003 05:14									#107
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JW:

quote: What about, for example, abortion? It is oppression of the mother (or would-be mother) to deny her the right to choose, but it is also oppression of the infant to kill it. It's a lose-lose situation that results in oppression no matter what. Under that definition of Reprehensible, any opinion on abortion is reprehensible.

I don't think you've made the case that it is oppressive. Mandatory abortion would be opressive, and I have no problem defining that as reprehnsible...

	30-03-2003 05:16									#108
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Edan:

quote: Are you trying to explain and justify bigotry?

Are you saying that arabs that hate skinheads are bigoted?

	30-03-2003 05:17									#109
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Chegitz: ?

	30-03-2003 05:20									#110
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quote: I don't like to speak of people as a group, UNLESS we're speaking about the central element of the group, and the central group of skins is to hate non-aryans *** (see note below) Would a skin be allowed to stay in a skin group after showing that he/she doesn't hate non-aryans?

Yep. I knew at leat one skinhead with a persian girlfriend.

In stockholm there was a notable "black skinhead".

quote: Would a jew be not counted as a jew after attacking Israel?

Actually, the jewish community seems very vehement against what they call the "self-hating jews"...

	30-03-2003 05:22									#111
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Shi: Basically, at some point everyone must take some responsibility for their own actions. I'm all for freedom of speech, but if I walk up and call your mother a whore to your face, I should not complain when I get a split lip. See what I mean?

	30-03-2003 05:32									#112
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Yep. I knew at leat one skinhead with a persian girlfriend. In stockholm there was a notable "black skinhead".

You're surprising me with that examples (although ancient Persian is from the indo-european branch of languages...), but, can you provided me some details about the "black skinhead"? I'm not saying you're lying (of course), but this so weird that I want to know more details ... It remids that film about the nazi jew

quote: Actually, the jewish community seems very vehement against what they call the "self-hating jews"...

I can assure you that there are jews that doesn't support Israel, and (very) few other jews say that they are not jews...

	30-03-2003 05:36									#113
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CyberGnu, you cannot excuse the discraceful actions of Moslem's by saying the French Jews should not associate themselves with Isreal. Yes, I agree free can go too far but it is NOT too far to associate one's self with thier 'home' country (in this case the innocent lad didnt even do this!). Remember what Afganistan did to America - thier terrorist harbouring led to Sept 11 so should Arabs who originally originated from Afganistan deny thier country??
Riduculas - it cannot be excused that Moslem's are out of order and that thier religion is now of MORE danger (to the world) than NAZI ideology....

	30-03-2003 05:47									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Rothy CyberGnu, you cannot excuse the discraceful actions of Moslem's by saying the French Jews should not associate themselves with Isreal. Yes, I agree free can go too far but it is NOT too far to associate one's self with thier 'home' country (in this case the innocent lad didnt even do this!). Remember what Afganistan did to America - thier terrorist harbouring led to Sept 11 so should Arabs who originally originated from Afganistan deny thier country?? Riduculas - it cannot be excused that Moslem's are out of order and that thier religion is now of MORE danger (to the world) than NAZI ideology....

Roothy, I want to say you

1) Israel is not the 'home' country for all jews. Many jews are not israelians. It's important to keep in mind that, altough, Israel is a 'jew state', not all jew are from Israel

2) I agree with you that taking association with a country is not going too far. It's important to understand that you associate with the people of these, and you can (or can not) disagree with the goverment of these country.

3) The muslim religion is not dangerous for the world, in my humble opinion. Only a small group of integrist are dangerous, but there are a (american) billion of muslim, and the vast majority of them are peace-lovers, like you and me

	30-03-2003 06:18									#115
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"I don't think you've made the case that it is oppressive. Mandatory abortion would be opressive, and I have no problem defining that as reprehnsible..."

Abortion is opressive to the baby it kills.

"Shi: Basically, at some point everyone must take some responsibility for their own actions. I'm all for freedom of speech, but if I walk up and call your mother a whore to your face, I should not complain when I get a split lip. See what I mean? "

There is a difference between an insult and taking a position on the Israel/Palestine issue which is hardly a black and white measure of opression. For instance, Cybergnu, you would not say it was reprehensible to fly the Palestinian flag would you, even though the Pals are currently engaged in suicide bombings with polls showing a majority of Palestinians supporting it.

	30-03-2003 06:23									#116
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Edan: Are you saying that arabs that hate skinheads are bigoted?

If they can't differentiate between skinheads spouting hatred or performing criminal acts and those who are doing so because it's a fashion statement (or the haircut went a little further than they wanted to ) then yes, I would.

	31-03-2003 01:41									#117
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I just came back from my weekend.

Ned :
Racism in France isn't new, and its progression is very slow, even though one must acknowledge it exists. This racism is very politically incorrect, and the incarnation of racism, Le Pen, is harshly fought by the majority of the French. Last elections, he had 18% of votes, and the liar/crook Chirac got 82% of the votes, almost as much from the Republican right than from the Left (only the leftists didn't call to vote for Chirac). The demonstrations against Le Pen were impressive, and showed our fascist extraordianire is the most hated politician in France.

You shouldn't confuse our "antiamerican" policies with a regrowth of nationalism : few French people wave their flag like most Americans of this forum. In France, a forum like FFZ would be called a pack of far-right bigots. The officials of France, including Chirac, have made a big effort in acknowledging the horrors of the past (collaboration with the nazis, torture during the Algeria war), and most French people are perfectly aware we're not perfect, and have a less-than-spotless past. By the same token, nationalist rags like US News and World Report aren't imaginable in France.

The governments have failed fighting against the old racisms, anti-arab and anti-black. It has, however, nearly decimated the old antisemitism, which almost only belongs to old people now, and should die with them. It has a great deal to do to fight against the new racisms : new-look antisemitism, new-look anti-whitism, new-look anti-arabism. But these new racisms (and in fact the old ones save antisemitism) are all part of a bigger picture, that is the lack of integration and the existence of ghettos.

There is nearly no trace of nazism (that is : complete and genocidial hate for other races, mindless flagwaving, mmilitary agressiveness) in France.
The rise of racism sure is worrying, but you shouldn't jump to hastened conclusions. The rise of racism has been worrying in all European countries recently.

	31-03-2003 02:36									#118
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Chegitz: ?

What?

	31-03-2003 02:42									#119
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav You're surprising me with that examples (although ancient Persian is from the indo-european branch of languages...), but, can you provided me some details about the "black skinhead"? I'm not saying you're lying (of course), but this so weird that I want to know more details ... It remids that film about the nazi jew

I knew a black racist skinhead, that is, racists against other Blacks. He didn't just have issues, he had a whole freakin' subscription.

quote: I can assure you that there are jews that doesn't support Israel, and (very) few other jews say that they are not jews...

In the US, Jews who are critical of Israel are routinely called self-hating Jews.

	31-03-2003 05:59									#120
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quote: It's not a realistic supposition?

Cybergnu:
Nice way of dealing with the point at hand. Ignore the point, and it may go away, will it not?

Muslims are being persecuted because some of the French are making the exact same argument that I did, that essentially all Muslims are the same, that if one Muslim is a terrorist they all are.

How is this position any different from yours, that essentially, all Jews oppress and hate the Muslims, and are thereby deserving of oppression themselves?

quote: In a perfect world, no one would be persecuted for their religion. But in the real world, religion and politics mix... And basically, this is a political issue, not a religious one.

So your argument goes like this.

Our world is horrible, so we need to deal with the world by adopting the tactics of the world.

Tough. I say the only way to get out of the cycle of violence between Jews and Muslims is for both sides to see the other as a person, equally valuable.

That's why these kids, and they are kids, be they in France or in Israel are getting hurt, because some adults no longer see them as persons.