12-07-2003 15:45									#151
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Welcome back, Mr Ogre!

Thanks a ton for anything you can do for us, even if it doesn't lead to any results. The effort is very, very much appreciated

	12-07-2003 16:00									#152
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Indeed. Thanks very much . Good to finally see you post after hearing so much about you.

	12-07-2003 16:30									#153
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All heil the ogre!!

I remember in the far past when i first came here you were there and now you've returned

I truly think that with help of mr ogre w'll have the codes

And mr ogre how come yove haven't posted here since i don't know what?

Last edited by ískallin on 12-07-2003 at 16:37

	12-07-2003 18:45									#154
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Thanks Mr. Ogre

Now, finally, after these months of debates, I am getting my hopes up.

Old good Activision... eh, we all realize that they have products published such as Quake, for whom they of course care much more than CtP. Now, if we offered free customer support for CtP, they would undoubtedly be pleased .

Now, here, thinking (dreaming) out loud. Any chance that, at getting the source, and fixing the bugs, CtP2 + bugfixes + mods + other stuff could be made a commercial product?

	12-07-2003 18:50									#155
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More thoughts here... frankly, I can't believe that the source is lost. All in all, anything as complex as CtP2 is a very big investment of job by programmers, and I think that sources are preserved if at all possible. Even art is, but well, art for specific units take less time than programming.

Ogre, I wonder, as the lead programmer, were you not allowed to keep certain pieces of source yourself?

	12-07-2003 22:38									#156
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First welcome back Mr. Ogre.

quote: Originally posted by Solver Even art is, but well, art for specific units take less time than programming.

Even if there is no art in the archive this doesn't matter we want to fix the ctp2.exe and the art is on the CD and on my cumputer as well anyway, at least the art is used and some art not used in CTP2. We can open the *.zfs files and the *.til files, and a sprite extractor is actual not so difficuilt as well.

quote: Originally posted by Solver Ogre, I wonder, as the lead programmer, were you not allowed to keep certain pieces of source yourself?

I don't know whether he has the the source code or not. Even if he has it, he signed probably a contract that does not allow to give code away, so he has to ask Activision at least.

-Martin

	12-07-2003 23:02									#157
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Sorry to intrude and not be a CtP2 player, but I saw "source" in the newZ on the front page and my interest was piqued. I must say, if Activision really won't give you the source code, then they either really did destroy it and are thus incompetent, or want to hog it and are thus greedy. I suspect they can give it to you but it would take too much effort to figure out where they put it, and are thus just trying to get rid of you.

I hope that you're successful in your search for the code; I myself think there should be a law that software should be made freeware or its source be distributed after 5 years from its last patch. I dunno how long CtP2 has been out (not that long of course ) but I figure that would at least give you guys some hope, wouldn't it?

Good luck getting your source code...I myself have my Firaxis altar where I pray for civ3 patches, but I can probably set up an Activision altar with my CtP1 box...

Oh Great Activision,
Though I have laughed at puns rendered at your name,
and Though I have strayed from Your ways and gone to other Games,
Forgive me, for I am but a mere mortal that does not truly know the Light...
Direct me, O Great Activision, to your games "Call to Power" and "Call to Power 2"...
Give me, O Great Activision, Their Source Code, so that I might understand Your creations, and be in awe of them...
Amen.

in case anyone was in need of a good prayer

	13-07-2003 00:08									#158
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Martin, right you are. But at least if Mr. Ogre has the source, it's easier... I assume that persuading them to let Ogre disclose might be easier than for Activision to find the source, as noone seems to know where exactly it is.

	13-07-2003 01:08									#159
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Does anyone know of any other instances like this one? and how did they approach it? Wasnt there a similar situation with the BOTF source or was that hacked somehow?

Still thanks Mr Ogre

	13-07-2003 02:17									#160
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Yet more thanks, Mr Ogre.

Azmel2 suggested this a couple of years ago:

quote: Personally though, I think it would be good for CTP as a brand and Activision as a company to make this code available in some way. Perhaps you could start a grass roots effort to open source game code after some number of years of release. The folks at Loki arranged a "hack-a-thon" at LinuxWorld (?) for CTP1 inwhich a group of people off the street could sit in a specially network-isolated room to look and modify the code. Maybe somone can talk Activision into doing that again. I wouldn't hold my breath, but who knows.

I haven't been holding my breath, but like he said "who knows".

	13-07-2003 02:41									#161
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quote: Sorry to intrude and not be a CtP2 player, but I saw "source" in the newZ on the front page and my interest was piqued. I must say, if Activision really won't give you the source code, then they either really did destroy it and are thus incompetent, or want to hog it and are thus greedy. I suspect they can give it to you but it would take too much effort to figure out where they put it, and are thus just trying to get rid of you.

Somehow I failed to respond to this excellent comment. Well, if they did happen to lose the source, they're really incompetent, but, as I have already said, I don't believe this is the case - too much work it is, after all, and Activision is a big company. It's more likely that they lost it somewhere, and it's on some hard drive that is on a shelf in the basement infested with spiders...

Maybe, they don't want to give the code to us, but that can hardly be greed, for holding the source doesn't do them muhc good anymore.

Finally, if we are persuasive enough, they may want to give us the source and get rid of us that way .

I am now though more hopeful than I was, especially because Ogre emailed the vice-president, great stuff !

Up to today, though, I didn't believe that something like this will truly happen .

	13-07-2003 03:38									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Activision is a big company.

The bigger the company, the easier it is to loose something. Especially if you throw in some reorganizations...

quote: Up to today, though, I didn't believe that something like this will truly happen .

Which gave the rest of us all the more reason to believe the opposite

	13-07-2003 04:21									#163
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Keeping fingers crossed.

	13-07-2003 23:07									#164
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All it would take on Activisions part is a little effort to;

1. Decide that it WOULD be in their interest to do this as they would get for FREE a Civ contender as the modders did their magic(adding infinate resale value to the game).

2. Decide to try to find that code, or WHO might still have it.

3. Maybe arrange something with Apolyton where by it is made clear that NO MONEY will be charged for anything that comes from the modders.

After all this is a great opportunity for future programmers to cut their teeth no?

Big companies like Activision NEED to spread a bit of goodwill around sometimes, the games communities are getting smarter and more informed about bad customer treatment or as is the case with CTP2 an almost complete lack of after sales support. It would be good for them to get a few browny points.(I might even buy another Activision game again!) .

	14-07-2003 00:57									#165
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OK, yeah, if you guys at Activision do this, I will buy another of your games, although none actually interest me, but I will .

	14-07-2003 02:24									#166
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ok...

If Activision does this, I shall (1) give as burnt offering 25 sacrificial virgins or (2) see whut games they have (hey, you never know, one might interest me.)

	14-07-2003 02:35									#167
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wow. Mr Ogre came back. Fingers crossed then, eh?

	14-07-2003 04:14									#168
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Hmmm........... interesting.

Good to see you again Mr Ogre.

Locutus:
Don't you even make that smartass assimilation comment again.

Well guys, if something DOES pop up in the way of source, here's one programmer who could tear himself away from personal projects to look through the code.

	14-07-2003 04:49									#169
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Great to hear that Dale .

For the record... does anyone know how many fully-able programmers (that is, with understanding of C++ and some experience) do we have here? I was once told that some modders do only know SLIC and have no previous programming experience, so I'm wondering.

	14-07-2003 05:57									#170
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Not many.

Dale, you, me (though even I don't have much experience with C++), Martin the Dane, maybe Martin Gühmann (not sure).

But J Bytheway has plenty of VBasic experience and will probably be able to make himself more than useful, and I don't think Peter and Ben would need too much time to get the hang of it. If we do get our hands on the code, we might be able to persuade some old guys to come back (e.g. MrBaggins) and some Alt Civ people might be interested as well.

	15-07-2003 00:43									#171
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As for AltCiv people, I'm not all that confident... but yeah, you are right, not many. And, we'd have to ask ourselves the next question - how many people we have here, of these few programmers, that will have the time to fix bugs, etc.

	15-07-2003 00:56									#172
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You know, every time I go back to the C++ code in the sprite creation readme, it seems to make a little more sense.

	15-07-2003 01:31									#173
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I've dabbled in VC++ 6 - I got through the Scribble tutorial. This would certainly be an incentive to apply myself a little more .

	15-07-2003 01:37									#174
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It should be, J . I guess you have the time to practice C++ before we get the source...

	15-07-2003 04:13									#175
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Those interested in learning a bit of C++ will find the following sites usefull:

- http://www.gamedev.net/reference
- http://www.flipcode.com/tutorials
- http://www.gametutorials.com

Heaps of useful stuff. I learnt a lot of not "how to program C++", but more along the lines of "how to do THIS in C++".

	15-07-2003 04:30									#176
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Well, the return of Mr. Orge has add some weight to our slim chance....

Would there be any value in getting a petition of names together.....It may do nothing but it may also demonstrate how many people are still interested in this making this game better....

	15-07-2003 08:04									#177
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Here's an update. So far it looks fairly promising, but it still has to go through more people. The annoying part is that the person I've talked to would like all the comments stripped from the code to avoid releasing anything that might hurt Activision's image (most of the concern there is over potential remarks re Microprose and Avalon Hill left over from when it was Civilization: Call to Power) or anyone's personal feelings. I'm sad about that, because there are some funny ones in there, and it'll make understanding it all that much harder. But it's still better than nothing. There's little to no direct financial incentive in this for anyone, and the only alternatives are not doing it at all, or paying someone there, a lawyer most likely, to scan every single comment for legal ramifications, and it is a rather large code base. The whole "Civilization" thing on the first game was a very messy business, so while I'd be with you guys in thinking that concern is pretty silly, I think lots of things lawyers do are silly... until I'm court being grilled by one .

	15-07-2003 08:13									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Solver More thoughts here... frankly, I can't believe that the source is lost. All in all, anything as complex as CtP2 is a very big investment of job by programmers, and I think that sources are preserved if at all possible. ...snip...

You have to remember that there is no more development taking place at Activision corporate, we (Mr. Ogre, St. Swithin, myself and all the rest of the team) were the last of the in house developers. Activision is now pretty much a publisher, but they do wholly own several other development houses. So keeping track of where the source code is, isn't the highest thing on their priority list. I'm certain it's still in the building somewhere, but knowing where it is is another issue altogether. It is a rather large building.

I don't know whether Activision will release the source code or not. I for one hope so. But it is their property, they spent an aweful lot of money to develop it. Giving it away for free doesn't actually gain them anything other than good will. So if they decide to release it, please remember that, and thank them profusely for doing it. And if they decide not to release it, that is their right and perogative to do so, don't be too harsh.

And for the record, some of us do still look in on Apolotyn every now and then, even though it's often just silent watching.

Pyaray

	15-07-2003 08:20									#179
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quote: The whole "Civilization" thing on the first game was a very messy business, so while I'd be with you guys in thinking that concern is pretty silly, I think lots of things lawyers do are silly... until I'm court being grilled by one .

Wow. Excellent news, looks like this is close.

Mr Ogre, I read a bit about the "Civilization" naming battles. Truly messy stuff indeed. And you are right. Lawyers do very silly things. Do what is needed to keep them far, far away.

	15-07-2003 10:21									#180
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This is some truly amazing news. Thanx for the work guys ( Mr. Ogre, Big MC et al. )