23-06-2003 00:16									#241
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yes keep all the units we can I suppose. although we will be paying unit support for those when we lose our cities.

What goverment are we in btw?

	23-06-2003 02:31									#242
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Despotism, I think.

	23-06-2003 08:55									#243
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I am back

Jon Miller

	24-06-2003 00:01									#244
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Still in Despotism. I think it is best to stay there until we get started on Legos Minor. Since we will be dropping city population for a while any benefit of Republic will slowly disappear until we rebuild.

	24-06-2003 05:56									#245
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I concur with Harry's analysis.

	24-06-2003 08:59									#246
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270bc turn played. Will post tomorrow morning, Good night,

	25-06-2003 07:20									#247
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250bc turn played. Sorry - save was here and I did not have turn to post from last night.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...250bc-north.JPG

The screenshot gives a good idea. The second galley is on its way. The first encountered a barbarian galley and won - taking 1hp of damage.

There are 3 workers in the Voice. There are two in W.C., along with a settler. Two settlers are underway. No other settlers will go by galley. The 4th galley is working its way around the continent. Cashed in one reg Immortal for 7 shields, and can produce a vet galley in W.C. next turn. After that - only settlers. And we cans till make the timeline. Could afford to use one of WC's citizens as a scientist and move the slide to 0%. With reduced population, we are down to +8 gold per turn. BTW - I sent 50 gold to Lego as part of our repayment due, and a good will gesture. That was last turn or the turn before.

D'ville fell into disorder (sorry - played last nights turn after a bottle of wine) so I have moved two warriors in their to restore order. All the other southern troops will stay north of the city.

Would like GS to take the three catapults and save us the cash.

Suggestions? Comments?

And we need to get back to both GS and Lego on the treaties.

	25-06-2003 07:40									#248
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Actually, if GS takes the Catapults, then we go to war again...why don't we jsut disband them in place? At least it will save us the upkeep for them...

	25-06-2003 07:42									#249
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I thought the GS and Lego treaties were a done deal? Concerning Lego, I'm fine with it as is. Concerning GS, I thought they (GS) readjusted the treaty and deleted the "no embargo" clause...Have I missed something here?

	25-06-2003 10:16									#250
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ok

I think it is time to start building again (or planning where to build)

this seems to be handling itself fine

but we need a strategy to try and grow and get back

now nomatter what our cities will be pretty unbuilt

no cultural victory for us

so I suggest that we do not try and be cultural (do nto build cultural buildings)

also, we will be behind tech wise

so we should try to get some other strategy for getting tech

less buildings = have more money to pay fo rit?

except we are so far in debt, I wanted GS to take that on (our debt, main reason why I wanted to deal with them)

if we are a good vassal to lego, we might get some tech support from them

there would ahve to be some way we could get them to agree to that though (proping us up technologically)

Jon Miller

	25-06-2003 12:19									#251
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm afraid to know how much debt we are in

	25-06-2003 15:29									#252
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We should nullify our debts.

	25-06-2003 15:35									#253
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I'll do a count on the debt - but don't sweat. The initial loan of 150 was paid for using feudalism. I can't recall what the next two were - but I have already repaid 50, and Lego will likely credit us 150 or so for engineering. So we are pretty close to be even. We are not in that big a hole. We get some small change from GoW for engineering, and we had a deal with RP for the tech as well. A GPT that brought in 180 I think.

As to the builds - I agree no temples. But libraries are cheap for us and help our science output. One consideration.

	26-06-2003 02:20									#254
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Beta, I would like to keep the catapults. We can use them to dispand either in WC to speed pop reduction or in the new cities in Legos Minor to speed library builds.

Jon, have you read the treaty with Lego? It includes info about sharing techs.

Legos Minor build priorities - Since many of our cities will need to use coast tiles to get any growth harbors should be a top priority for those cities. Libraries will be needed to improve our science output (we will need to research in less then 40 turns if we really want to be helpful to anyone ). Once we get cities up to size 5 then we should consider temples and aqueducts. I don't think we will need a barracks for a while.

	26-06-2003 09:34									#255
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quote: Beta, I would like to keep the catapults. We can use them to dispand either in WC to speed pop reduction or in the new cities in Legos Minor to speed library builds.

We must give them the catapults. It's part of the agreement.

	26-06-2003 18:18									#256
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Regarding the debt issues mentioned above, please see the Lego FA thread for the accounting I have sent to them for verification.

By my count - we only owe Lego 70 more gold. And the repayment of that can probably be delayed unti after we move.

Also - we will have 35 gold coming from GoW. And I am going to approach them to be more reasonable. Say 70, which would even the books.

And also - we had the old deal we cut with RP for engineering. Now I suspect they have made a deal to get it from NeuD or GS, so we may be out of luck, but I will see if I can twist the weasels' weaselly little arms.

	28-06-2003 20:46									#257
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230bc turn played.

All goes well. Better than well actually.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...230bc-north.JPG

All southern units have been moved into D'ville, and I have offered a peace treaty, RoP, and D'ville accepted to GS. Those units should teleport out of there next turn.

All galleys (4) moved closer to their destination. The last galley built in Wittlich City amd now on its way is not carrying anyone. They will get there sooner via the teleport plan.

Now - the good news. I cashed in a regular immortal - 7 shields - which means we only needed 3 shields to build a worker in Wittlich city. So - I could move many of the citizens to the shore tiles to boost gold income.

Here is the city screenshot:


http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...bc-Wittlich.JPG

Was able to do similar moves aroung Harry's Hideout - which only needed one more shield to produce a settler. And there was also one tweak I was able to make in The Voice to produce more gold.

The overall impact is that we are at +18 gold per turn, and building up a bit of a treasury - now at 82. 100 next turn.

So with the trade deals yet to come, and maybe some money from GS we should be in OK shape.

Between the Voice and Wittlich City we now have 1 settler and 5 workers. There are also 2 settlers in the first two galleys. And we produce 2 more workers and a settler next turn. So by next turn - that will be 4 settlers and 7 workers.

Here is my quick estimate of our final pop figures we can produce over the next 4-5 turns:

..................................settlers......workers

After next turn ............. 4.............. 7
The Voice...................... 0.............. 2
Witt............................... 1...............2
MillerT............................ 1...............1
HH................................. 0................1
BbtS............................... 0................1

Totals.............................. 6..............14

Look OK? I am also sending the save around so everybody can have a boo and see if there are other ideas.

Again - the other option is to drag this out the full 18 turns - go back to food production, etc. But why bother. Let's get going in the new land. And see if we can get some small compensation from GS for leaving well in advance of schedule. Comments?

	01-07-2003 08:16									#258
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210bc turn played.

With all the units still sitting in Dissidentville, and with dwindling population, we are down to +3 gpt cash flow. Treasury is at 100.

Move was made earlier today and then Poly went down. Can't recall if I save a screen shot.

Will send the next save around to all.

Galleys all moved west.

Worker and settler builds continued.

Offered peace and RoP and Dissdentville to GS again.

	01-07-2003 09:30									#259
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Sounds good Beta. My guess is that GS will accept the city this time (though I could be wrong ).

BTW, just my opinion on your request for comments in the post before that one, but I agree that we should in the new land ASAP. The sooner we get going, the sooner we can plot a takeover of the world...umm peaceful acquisition I mean.

	03-07-2003 16:27									#260
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190bc turn played.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...190bc-north.JPG

Dissidentville is now a GS city.

All units in the south were teleported to The Voice. Three immortals were disbanded to speed up settler production in the Voice and in Miller Town. Remainder will be used in Wittlich City.

In the meantime - all units moved to the hill tile outside of Wittlich City. There are 7 workers and two settlers in the stack.

Treasury at 97 gold. Zero gpt.

Engineering in 7 turns. Slider at 10%.

Galleys all moved west.

	03-07-2003 20:50									#261
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Sorry about not posting lately. I did not get the save when I had the free time Friday and early Saturday. Been busy with a conference paper. Tried to get into Poly a few times with no success.

Since I have not had time to work on a detailed plan, here are some things I had on my mind.

Cash in warriors and spearmen before immortals. It will reduce our unit costs quicker. I would like to keep one immortal for each of our new cities. They can provide both defense and offiense if we need it (e.g., attack barbarians until we get established).

Max out shield production in each city and limit food production. No use producing more citizens that will only delay the jump. Use just enough disbanding without wasting extra shields. We have a lot of turns to go. The disbanding will help more in later turns when the shield production is low and we don't want to run out of units too early. It is Wittlich City that we have to concentrate on since it will take longest to get its population down.

Any units not disbanded on Estonia can be disbanded in the new lands to help speed harbors which will be desparately needed to get any kind of growth for most of the new cities.

Once cities reach 1 pop change the city to produce wealth (it will generate +1 gold) and change the citizen to a tax collector so the city does not product food. One city should have a scientist instead of a tax collector so we can keep our slider at 0%. It is possibe one of the cities is producing more shields than needed and one of its citizens could be made a temporary scientist when not needed for shields.

Get the Miller Town citizen off the mined hill and give that hill to WC. WC needs to stagnate its food and the shields are more useful there to reduce the population.

I would like to get a few more settlers. One for each of our new city sites. We need to establish those cities ASAP to maximize growth since there are few places that will grow good in the new land.

	03-07-2003 20:52									#262
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Stacking the units next to Miller Town on a tile that is two from WC and Voice would make it convenient for moving units into any of those cities for disbandonment.

	03-07-2003 22:30									#263
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Harry - I agree with all your points. The units are on the hill where they are so they can reach the big 3 for disbanding.

And agreed as well on the disbanding of units and shield counts. I use them as appropriate to ensure there is no shield loss. Immortals are worth 7, spears 4 and warriors 2.

BTw - we have to cash in Immortals as per the treaty. We have a cap of 4. We can probably get away with 5 as one is long gone on a galley.

I am trying to max out shield and gold production. I am going to get one more pop point of grwoth out of WC, and probably one more - maybe two out of the Voice. It depends when the jump happens. HH and BbtS will both follow the process you described above when their workers are produced - 4 and 2 turns respectively.

Yes to more settlers. We have 4 now. Two in the galleys. Two on the hill. And probably 4 more after that. 1 from The Voice, 1 from MT, and 2 from WC. That will give us 8 in addition to the gifted city from Lego. And note btw - that will give us a bigger civilization city wise than we have ever had.

All of the warriors will get cashed in next turn at WC, so it will help cash flow. They couldn't make it there and get cashed in in one turn- so it will happen next.

Keep the ideas coming guys. And we still need to work out the final mechanics of the jump.

	03-07-2003 23:08									#264
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I like Harry's ideas too. I'll try and study the situation a bit more with the new save tonight and see if I have anything else to add to his ideas.

	04-07-2003 00:29									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Beta Immortals are worth 7, spears 4 and warriors 2.

Spears should be worth 5 (25% of 20 dropping fractions).

quote: BTw - we have to cash in Immortals as per the treaty. We have a cap of 4. We can probably get away with 5 as one is long gone on a galley.

OK. Does the treaty say how quickly we have to cash them in?

quote: Keep the ideas coming guys. And we still need to work out the final mechanics of the jump.

The jump should follow what I did in the test, unless GS says no to abandoning Voice. I am thinking of another plan if GS says no but I want to run some tests this weekend just to see if there are any surprises.

As soon as we do the palace jump we should switch governments. There are no unit maintenance costs in anarchy so that will help with the cash flow problem when we are at our lowest number of cities. The single citizens as scientist or tax collectors still do their thing in anarchy. We should come out of anarchy about the time we are ready to found some of the new cities. I still need to run some tests to look at the differences between Monarchy and Republic in our new land.

	04-07-2003 00:56									#266
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Yup - 5. Haven't cashed any of them in yet.

As to the treaty - no it doesn't say. Eli should clarify here. I took it to mean we should disband them before the transfer. But - as we are pretty well neutralized militarily now anyway, I am not sure GS would make that big a deal of it. And yes - we will need harbors.

I still have not heard about abandoning the Voice. Will send a reminder next turn.

And I too was wondering about the best time for the govt change. I figured it would be just after the move. When we only have one city anyway, and the settlers will be fanning out towards city sites.

OK - and we use the single scientist for research. Sounds like a plan.

	06-07-2003 04:31									#267
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170bc played.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Beta/Vox-170bc.JPG

4 warriors cashed in at WC to get settler out in two turns.

Another settler produced this turn.

I have set a schedule to have all the necessary builds done in 6 turns. Will post an update in the evac thread.

With the warriors gone, and some citizens moved, we are at +4 cash flow. Engineering in 6.

Also - a quick calc puts our lead galley 11 turns from landing. The other is two turns behind him. The third and fourth are empty.

Sent a reminder to GS asking about a response. Nothing yet. Six turns would mean we wrap things up some 8 turns early. The six turns also lets us squeeze out two more workers.

If necessary - we could go earlier. Say in 3, with 3 or 4 less workers.

Again - I will post the schedule in the evac thread.

And btw - is anybody out there?

	06-07-2003 05:19									#268
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The schedule sounds good Beta. I would say continue with the six turn schedule and get the extra workers. If nothing else we can join them to the other cities.

And yes I'm out here. Speaking of that, did you read the Thread of Everything? I had been wondering if you need help with anything so you don't have to do it all yourself.

	07-07-2003 05:06									#269
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150bc turn played.

The civ wind down continues. Here's two screenshots. The first is of North Estonia and indicates the builds. The second is the stacj of units - which on Harry;s recommendation has been moved to the tile SW of Miller Town.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Beta/Vox-150bc.JPG

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...150bc-stack.JPG

We have a decision to make next turn regarding Wittlich city. We can produce another settler out of WC, in 3 turns, getting the pop down to 1. But we will need to use our three spears. Any thoughts?

Remember we have two settlers in the galleys - and they are getting loser.

Cash flow is breakeven, with the treasury at 101.

Engineering in 5 turns - which will bring some cash.

So - we have 6 settlers now. One out next turn. And a decsion to make on another out of WC in exchange for 3 spears.

We have 8 wworkers now, and 3 out in the next few turns. More if we do not opt for the settler build out of WC.

I will post a poll.

And I trust everyone south of the border had a good weekend! Been quiet here.

	08-07-2003 05:11									#270
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130bc turn played.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Beta/Vox-130bc.JPG

Ok - following the poll - we had one slight problem. Corruption. We lost one of the 5 shields to corruption. Argh. So, I made an executive decison - 4 turns of 4 shields will give us 16 shields. Need 14 more to make 30. Two regular pikemen were sacrificed for the cause, to ensure we get a settler out in 4 turns. Hope everyone is OK with this. They were only regulars, and we can upgrade a vet spearman for 10 gold.

Now - The Voice. Worker in 3. Then we freeze it before it grows.

Miller Town. Worker out next turn. And then we can produce another worker two turns after that if we use the regular spearman. That will bring MT down to pop 1.

HH - worker in two. No rush for him - so I have moved the citizen to working the coastal tile. More gold.

BbtS - now has a scientist - which freezes the pop growth. Slider set to 0%. Engineering still out in 4 turns.

Treasury at 101 gold, plus 2 gpt.

The plan is to be ready to go in 4 turns, with (including the units in the galleys), 8 settlers, 12 workers, 6 pikes, 4 Immortals, 2 spears, 4 galleys. (assumes we use the reg spear for the extra worker - which I think we should).

That's the plan. It will end up with all cities at pop 1, with the exception of WC which may grow - but I need to use the shield tiles to get the settler built.

All in all - it could be worse - but it does pain me to leave our modest little homeland.