28-05-2003 20:35									#181
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We have that tech trade deal with RP. Do they have feudalism yet? If not, we should send it to them and they pay us half the 75 gold cost.

Unless we get about six pikes in a stack I don't see how we can hold a tile at the edge of the mountains. It would be nice to keep tabs on what is happening in GS territory but it would take multiple stacks to get a good view and those units could be better used elsewhere if an attack comes.

I wonder how committed GS would be to supporting a war on Bob. Without horses we will have the same problem there as ND, and maybe GoW, will be attacking with knights. At least on Bob there are hills and that evens out the movement difference. There are some flats where there knight movement will help them and they still have the retreat advantage so it will be hard for us to destroy units.

Our problem is we are pretty stuck without horses. The Bobians take too long to get new (upgraded) units over to Estonia and we are the follower on techs while GS can get new/upgraded units to the front quickly. The more I think about this game the more I think we are in a deep hole with no way out. I think we could wage war against GoW without help, but not against two or three civs on Bob and we can not wage war on GS without serious help from all other civs. I just don't think the other civs are commited enough to war (no matter who it is against) and we will continue to exist in last place without conquering others.

	29-05-2003 06:36									#182
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Unfortunately, I can't disagree with your analysis Harry. This is going to have to be won via diplomacy.

	01-06-2003 04:47									#183
	Get a bigger avatar today!

450bc turn played - quickly - I was late playing because of my internet being down - and I was still working on issues - so I played it and sent it earlier. Here is the screen shot.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...450bc-south.JPG

You will note that:
a) we lost our galley on the west coast, and
b) the force on the mountains on the east coast are now trapped. GS has landed a force of pikemen and a med inf behind them.

The good news is that pikemen are starting to take over defenesive positions, and that catapults will be arriving in force soon.

The Voice will start a settler next turn. The harbor is done in 3 or two turns.

And oh yes - the peace deal from GS came back across the table unaccepted. So I sent it back unaccepted. What we do there will depend on our chats with GoW and RP, and if GS is not asking for the moon in exchange.

Nothing else of note. The treasury is short. There was one warrior who could not be upgraded - but a number of spearman were.

And I have a separate note from Lego that they will be willing to forgive the first 150 gold loan in exchange for feudalism. That is good news.

	02-06-2003 10:27									#184
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by HarryH We have that tech trade deal with RP. Do they have feudalism yet? If not, we should send it to them and they pay us half the 75 gold cost. Unless we get about six pikes in a stack I don't see how we can hold a tile at the edge of the mountains. It would be nice to keep tabs on what is happening in GS territory but it would take multiple stacks to get a good view and those units could be better used elsewhere if an attack comes. I wonder how committed GS would be to supporting a war on Bob. Without horses we will have the same problem there as ND, and maybe GoW, will be attacking with knights. At least on Bob there are hills and that evens out the movement difference. There are some flats where there knight movement will help them and they still have the retreat advantage so it will be hard for us to destroy units. Our problem is we are pretty stuck without horses. The Bobians take too long to get new (upgraded) units over to Estonia and we are the follower on techs while GS can get new/upgraded units to the front quickly. The more I think about this game the more I think we are in a deep hole with no way out. I think we could wage war against GoW without help, but not against two or three civs on Bob and we can not wage war on GS without serious help from all other civs. I just don't think the other civs are commited enough to war (no matter who it is against) and we will continue to exist in last place without conquering others.

we were in a deep hole to begin with

that was why we made the decision to go the direction that we did

Jon Miller

	02-06-2003 10:29									#185
	Tired of ads?

the land requires horses

I agree

we should build ust enough for defense

but try and keep GS and the others spending on war

JOn Miller

	02-06-2003 16:40									#186
	Put an end to popups!

430 bc turn played. Will post results here tonight. Nothing dramatic happened.

	03-06-2003 04:08									#187
	Put an end to popups!

Here's the screenshots:

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...430bc-north.JPG

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...30-bc-south.JPG

Trying to remember the important points.

Wittlich City has a harbor produced next turn.

The Voice will produce a settler in three turns. I have put Harry's Hideout to producing a library - 4 turns. It could use the expansion to get a whale tile to produce. If anyone thinks otherwise - let's discuss.

More spearmen upgraded and more moved to the frontlines. We have considerable military power still remaining. I will do a tally for next turn and post it.

The peace deal with GS was taken off the table.

The GA has to be ending soon.

Our troops on the east coast are sort of trapped now - any ideas? Maybe a naval rescue?

Maybe that is the route we should go. Entrench heavily - make peace with GS with no land concessions - and concentrate on building a navy. Just a thought.

Anyways - the screenshots should tell the rest of the story. Sorry for the rambling report. Long day.

Last edited by Beta on 03-06-2003 at 04:24

	03-06-2003 04:44									#188
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

we are defensive enuogh

we need to start building

we will never have enough troops (As things stand) to puush an offense through (And we don't have enough support to do so either)

Jon Miller

	04-06-2003 08:15									#189
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

AH- ROOOOGA!! AH-ROOOGA!!

(that is one of those sirens sounding before a submarine goes down.)

Gents - this is looking dim. We need to take some decisive diplomatic action and soon.

410 BC

Screenshots:

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...410bc-north.JPG

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...410bc-south.JPG

The force in the north - landed by the four galleys consists of a settler, a med inf, and 4 pikemen.

The force in the south, next to the iron, consists of 5 pikemen and 1 settler.

And next to Harry and gand in the SE is a large stack of catapults and units. We have already taken some hits.

Witt City produced harbor - now a galley in 4 turns.

The Voice is still producing a settler. It is the best bet. Any shields over 10 are essentially a waste of sorts.

Harry's Hideout switched to galley. Next turn.

Troops are being concentrated to first counter the northern threat. They will propbably build a city - and cash rush walls. We have one turn to get in an do damage. Or they may pull out - but I doubt it.

In the south - they will build a city to take away the iron. That is the next challenge.

Two more pikemen upgraded.

I sent a peace treaty accepted to GS. I suspect it will be rejected.

If I do not hear from anybody shortly - I will be talking to GoW and RP (which I have not had time to do) assessing the situation - and then we either stick it out with allied support or suck up for peace.

Save also being sent around. Password is oporto in case you have forgotten.

	04-06-2003 08:58									#190
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

ack! that isn't good.

What do our offensive forces consists of? Just immortals?

	04-06-2003 10:11									#191
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

suck it up for peace

take any serious offer

Jon Miller

	04-06-2003 10:28									#192
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

yeah I guess take any decent offer. Nothing outrageous I say. I don't want to lose too much dignity . I'd rather go down fighting.

	04-06-2003 19:50									#193
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, I guess I'm not too surprised. I guess we should have build those cities in southern Estonia afterall.

	05-06-2003 00:48									#194
	Tired of ads?

We're dead.

	05-06-2003 01:55									#195
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That hurts... I say suck it up for peace...

	05-06-2003 03:10									#196
	Suffering from ads?

Shiber says most of the GSians want our destruction.

They became stronger than us in the advisor screen 5 turns ago, and they're getting more and more troops while we're losing more and more.

	05-06-2003 09:57									#197
	Support Apolyton

what if we back our forces off of the front line and use these forces to kill all GS units in our rear area? I know it's a long shot...but a fat lot of good our forces are doing on the front line (except for being used as GS target practice).

	05-06-2003 09:58									#198
	Full PM-box? Change here!

And just where are all of these promised Bobian forces?!

	05-06-2003 09:59									#199
	Increase Your PM Length

Ya'know boys, I think we've been used, screwed, and tatooed.

	05-06-2003 13:10									#200
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Yep.

I talked to Shiber, we should get an official peace proposal and list of demands from GS soon.

	05-06-2003 16:41									#201
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Had a long chat with BigFree of RP. They are still 100% committed to helping. They will have a second iron connected shortly. And their first galley is 5 tiles away.

I am chatting with GoW tonight.

Witt - yes - I think we can take out the the forces which landed. With pikemen - we should be in OK defensive situation. This will start to get a bit more costly for GS now that the shoe is somewhat on the other foot.

Will also be writing NeuD to ask for horses. Knights would be very helpful.

I am also working on an Exodus plan - just in case...

	05-06-2003 17:27									#202
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

What I know from talks with Shiber :

The borders of two of their northern cities have expanded.

They are about to destroy our southern stack of 5(?) Immortals.

They dont believe we can destroy the troops that landed near the Iron and near Elipolis.

	05-06-2003 18:29									#203
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

do we ahve the resources to free our iron??

it will be very hard

Jon Miller

	05-06-2003 21:35									#204
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller do we ahve the resources to free our iron?? it will be very hard Jon Miller

Northern city first. Then we will see about the iron.

	06-06-2003 00:25									#205
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

we should offer them a peace deal

I don't know if they will take it

but we should start talkss

we are not goight to come out ahead

so being in the prcoess of talking about peace is a good thing


also we need iron, are we atlking ot R_P about it?

we also need to make sure theat there is arift between RP and GS

RP is a bastard. but they are more of our bastard than GS

sorry when I am typing no letters appear so this is all blind

Jon Miller

	06-06-2003 03:06									#206
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This is all done.

Peace offered to GS yesterday. Sorry forgot to post it. Will shortly.

And as per my note regarding RP, yes - iron in two turns.

	06-06-2003 03:56									#207
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I am willing to take vassal status

I want to continue playing

and we can maybe be active (as in have a shot at the win) if GS gets hurt

Jon Miller

	06-06-2003 05:18									#208
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

OK - the save is here. Two cities are built. The Immortals in teh south are hanging in yet wounded. The city borders in the south expanded - so that stack is now in GS territory.

Now - up by Inchon - the northen city. They had 6 pikes and one med inf last turn.

We had pike, immortal, spearman, and two or three catapults adjacent to them at the end of the turn.

The pike is down to one hit point. Presumably he killed their med inf.

The spearman is gone. Killed by a pike.

The immortal was down to two hp's. So, presumably he killed a pike.

I think they were trying to get the catapults.

Anyway - that leaves 5 pikes in their city. We can move lots more units there in the next two turns - but they will have purchases walls by then. We can still take it.

But - I will not complete the turn for awhile. Please see the GS FA thread. We need to discuss the peace offer - and I will sit on the save until sometime tomorrow for this discussion.

The deabate in the public forum is fascinating, but still indicates that GS has no idea of world attitudes. I am going to be testing those attitudes soon. We want iron from RP, and horses from NeuD.

Also note that the first RP galleys has showed up. I will be talking with GoW to find out where they are. If anything - our desperate situation may rally the world even more.

GS is missing the obvious point. This is not about moraility and right-wrong and reputation - this is about the rest of the civs wanting to bring down GS. They are leading in the game right now. And they pose the greatest long-term threat. That's what it is all about. No one expects us to win.

	06-06-2003 05:40									#209
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

yah

but it is in our interest to survive

if we can make peace with GS, and have the other nations fight them

and then step in when the time is right

we will better be in place to win

right now we have no chance of winning, we will wear GS out, than others will hassle GS, but we will be gone and in no position to recover

as long as we are in a position to recover, it will be good (and if we are arround later, when the others are really wanting to fight GS, we might be able to use our position to pull out a victory)

Jon Miller

	07-06-2003 19:49									#210
	Put an end to popups!

390bc turn played last evening before I went out. Sorry for the delay in posting it here.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...390bc-south.JPG

The one screenshot shows most of the action.

Of note:

I have amassed troops to take on Inchon.

I have pulled back from the front lines on the SW.

On the SE - it looks like their days are numbered.

Lone war chariot out on the plains.

I am collecting the galleys at Elipolis.

Vet galley out of Wittlich in two turns.

Walls in Elipolis are built.

Walls in D-ville in two turns.

We should start thinking about defending against landings in north estonia. Warriors would work well to hold coastal positions.