03-05-2003 20:59									#151
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Unless GS managed to dig up a pile of gold somewhere I earlier predicted some 10 turns to chivalry. I expect the knights will come about the same time GoW can start trading feudalism. Since GoW has had it for a few turns GS may be half way there.

	03-05-2003 21:32									#152
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Based on what Nathan said in the public forum I do think those GS galleys have troops, or at least one does. They were looking for a place to land and take our iron but commented that we have it well defended. I think one galley has troops and the other is along for protection from our galley. If both galleys were empty I think they would have tried to take out our galley.

When GS gets knights I expect them to send a group of knights up the middle of the desert. Out of reach of our units. And then take out our spearman on the the southern most mountain near the iron. Once on the mountains we will not have anything that can take out a knight. Then they push forward go the iron.

	04-05-2003 07:29									#153
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We need to get a supply of horses from someone...and soon.

	15-05-2003 16:48									#154
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I have the save for 550bc to play. I checked it this morning - and GS offered a peace treaty, not accepted from their end.

I have received no correspondence regarding this. I will write nbarclay to ask what is up - or was it simply something they were doing as part of the recent game crash fix.

	15-05-2003 20:29									#155
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I have a scenario setup to test government changes in our situation. I ran out of time to run the tests and collect the data. I will complete it tonight.

Beta, check the GS galleys. I am curious what their hit points are and, if they have named them, what order the names are when you right click on their tile.

	15-05-2003 21:02									#156
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OK - will do. Will finish the turn when I get home from work this aft. Note nbarclay's response on the peace offering.

	16-05-2003 04:42									#157
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550 BC turn played.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...550bc-north.JPG

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...550bc-south.JPG

More losses. The spearman and immortal north of Arashi were taken out - and five pikemen and a med inf now block General Jon's way home. They entrenched on their mountain top. Fingers crossed.

Also - while moving an immortal to the front - another GS galley has been spotted on the west coast. Troops moved to cover potential landing spots.

Pillaged the mountain road we had built - no use getting hit by chariots. Workers moved north. We should have done this earlier.

Spread out some defenders in the south as well. We are probably going to get hit by combination catapult and med inf attacks - expect more losses. But I don't want to give them mountaintops without any kind of resistance.

We need pikemen.

Also - according to GoW's note - they are pulling back the horsemen to upgrade to riders. Or - we are about to be double-crossed big time. But I doubt it. I think all the civs see the threat posed by GS.

Wittlich City converted to harbor - 7 turns.

Galley built in Elipolis. Left it where it was.

The Voice continues with barracks. I am wondering if we shouldn't consider another city. A separate thread discussion shortly.

Three cities producing catapults. If in the right position - we can use them against GS galleys.

That's it - we need some discussion on moves - please - and a defensive holding strategy until we can get Pikemen and some help from GoW and RP.

	16-05-2003 05:37									#158
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General Jon and company are toast. GS has blocked the route so their catapults can work on them until they can all be easily taken out.

I am surprised GS let us see their galley. There is enough sea their for them to avoid detection. I always figured this was their better path to invade us in the north. That galley could be scouting the west coast or it may be the first in an invasion. Maybe they want to draw forces away from the east so their other galleys can land their troops.

quote: Pillaged the mountain road we had built - no use getting hit by chariots. Workers moved north. We should have done this earlier.

Darn! We will need that when we get horses, but that will a while yet if we can get them. I was thinking about Nathan's note about the Peace Treaty and using the Diplo screen to spy. My guess is he is checking to see if we have horses.

	16-05-2003 05:49									#159
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Concerning Genral Jon and Company - I say we should move them all to the mountain directly south of Arashi. This will place them between Arashi and Tempest. Then, on the next move (if they're still alive), move them to the mountain directly south-east of Tempest. At least this way, having a force moving though their territory will a) push back the fog of war and b) give GS something to be concerned about. I suggest this because, like Harry stated, if we just fortify them where they are at right now - they will surely die...at least this way, they can be useful as a military scouting force.

	16-05-2003 07:23									#160
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

OK - understood. We may take hits all the way. But as you say - it is better than just sitting there.

	19-05-2003 06:31									#161
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so what forces do we have still?

Jon Miller

	20-05-2003 16:32									#162
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530bc turn played. Before I went to work. Don't have time for a long post. Will do so tonight.

Here is the screenshot:

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...530bc-south.JPG

South only as the north is pretty much the same.

Jon - as to forces - we still have the largest army in the world - same as GS. You can see from the screenshot that we are amassing quite a number of Immortals in and around Dissidentville.

General Jon has started his trek south as per Witt's suggestion. They are taking a beating from Catapults. Most are down to 2 HP's.

	20-05-2003 18:56									#163
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You forgot to attach the savegame in the turn you sent.

	21-05-2003 03:58									#164
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Did not! It was attached, and sent from my ISP ok this morning. I have re-sent to Lego.

	23-05-2003 16:51									#165
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

510BC save is here. Decison needed. What do we do with General Jon. Of the 7 Immortals in the stack - 5 are down to 2 HP's and two are down to 1.

They can stay as is - but as soon as they are down a bit more - I am sure Med Inf will be attacking. We can try another move south onto the hill - but chariots will make quick work of them. Suicide attack? Fortify and hold? (that has my vote). Let me know - I will play the turn when I get home from work. Thanks. Oh yes - here is the screen shot:

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...bc-decision.JPG

	23-05-2003 17:01									#166
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Problems, problems, problems.

Looks like fortifying is our only choice.

	23-05-2003 17:21									#167
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Yep, I too think that fortifying is our only viable choice left.

	24-05-2003 00:08									#168
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Fortify and hold buys maybe one turn, two at the most. We know they have a couple of swordsmen, which are probably Med Inf by now. At most two turns for the catapults to get all units down to 1 HP. Then the Med Inf attack. Every other turn we will lose a few units while they heal in the city inbetween.

I propose that we move at least one unit SW onto the hill. That will reveal three black tiles so we at least get a little out of him. I suggest one of the 1 HP units since it will be gone either way. For the rest of the units we have these choices:

1. Move another unit to the hill on the W. That will reveal one additional black tile.

2. Move all the available units SW to the hill hoping that at least one survives to make it to the mountain and reveal a lot of black to the south.

3. Fortify and make peace with The One. It is just a matter of time.

Is it worth sacrificing units to reveal black tiles? Do we have any realistic way of saving those units? If we can not save them then using them to reveal tiles is better than nothing. The only advantage we get by fortifying is that it keeps GS occupied for a couple of turns before they can start moving north against us (provided they really want to do that before they get knights).

At least one unit should be moved SW with the option of another moving W. The rest can either fortify or make a run for the mountain. I just hate to see them sitting there doing nothing until they are gone.

	24-05-2003 01:22									#169
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Valid point Harry. I agree, yes it's a suicide run to try and move further south south-west...but the only other choice is to be wiped out in a few turns anyway. So, yes, I too say "let loose the dogs of war" and make a run southwest (at least we can get away from the catapults in the city we're currently next to).

	24-05-2003 02:32									#170
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I agree.

	24-05-2003 07:12									#171
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510 BC turn played about 4 hrs ago. Waited for Poly to come back up. And watched New Jersey beat Ottawa (boo hiss ) in the 7th game of the NHL eastern final. And you folks down there don't even care about the game. There - got that off my chest.

Here's the screenshots:

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...510bc-north.JPG

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...510bc-south.JPG

Followed Harry's recommendation - a wounded immortal went west - and found another city. The rest went SW for a final stand. We may need a lament to General jon and his band of Immortals.

The rest can be seen from the screen shots. More warriors upgraded. We still have a sizeable military. Average when compared to GS - and they have a pile of workers - which I believe are still included in the comparison.

I have some tactical plans in mind which I will post tomorrow

Wittlich has a harbor in 5 turns.

3 catapults in 2 turns. And they involve one of my plans.

The Voice produces barracks next turn. I suggest a series of warriors then a settler.

That's it.

	24-05-2003 18:10									#172
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Pray to The Voice that at least one of General Jon's units makes it to the other mountain.

I will not be able to comment on your plans until very late Monday night or Tuesday morning. It does not look like the catapults will be in position to do anything before then anyway.

	26-05-2003 17:59									#173
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490bc save is here.

General Jon and his pals are no longer with us.

But Gow has offered us feudalism. We had agreed earlier to buy it for 75 gold. I will complete the deal.

But - we have a decision to make.

DO WE PULL OUR TROOPS BACK FROM THE FRONT LINE??

And I am talking about both the east and west here. See the screenshot from the previous turn - looks the same but without General Jon in it.

If we stay where we are - we are right next to their road network - they may come at each tile individually with a stack of catapults and med inf, supported by pikemen. We would be losing troops for little gain - as we are not ready to launch another offensive.

And we do need to pull spearmen back for upgrading.

On the other hand - the line we are defending on now is a good one. And if we had pikemen in would be very strong. I'm just not sure it is worth the risk and cost trying to hold onto it.

On the east coast - we could pull back one mountain - just to keep them from attacking. It also pulls their troops further away from their cities.

Any thoughts? Recommendations?

I will play the save later today.

	26-05-2003 22:37									#174
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Tuff choice...Yes, we need to upgrade our spearmen to pikemen - but it's also nice to have forces on the front line...how about a gradual pull-back? 1/4 of our forces at a time for the needed upgrades. Oh, and I think we should also have some catapults of our own to pick away at their forces also...just a thought.

	27-05-2003 01:33									#175
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Agreed. Catapults are on their way. One is produced this turn - and two next. I am using the non-barracks cities for catapult production.

	27-05-2003 07:27									#176
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490 bc turn played. (if anyone is listening...)

Screenshots:

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...490bc-north.JPG

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Be...490bc-south.JPG

Offered 75 gold in exchange for feudalism - which was the agreement. Strange that GoW didn't send it accepted on the good faith that we would send the 75 gold.

The screenshots show most of the moves. Moving spearmen to D'ville for upgrades. Fingers crossed regarding forces on the mountains next to the road.

Sent galley one move down the west coast. Nothing to see.

GS's other two galleys have pulled back. Tide going out before the tidal wave comes???

Catapults being produced. Elipolis will produce walls after the nexy build. Harbor in 4 turns. Workers from down south almost back north to help up with terrain upgrades - just in time.

Any thoughts on next moves. I am writing to GS - mostly just to try and buy some time. Also note came in from GoW.

	27-05-2003 20:41									#177
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Hopefully we can continue holding our own in the mountains until we can get pikemen and catapults into position.

And I concur - hopefully GoW is planning on sending over more military support other than the current bits-and-pieces.

	27-05-2003 23:17									#178
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Should we change D'ville to walls just in case or keep building a spearman?

The only way to hold a spot on the edge of the mountains is to have enough units that the catapults can not do serious harm. If they are spread out, like they are now, they will take them out one stack at a time. Even in a big stack, in time GS will decide to expand their border (they may be working on libraries already) the stack will not be able to heal between turns forcing us back. Once we move back I expect GS will move in a stack of pikes on a mountain and put some workers there to build a road so they can keep advancing their catapults against our line.

I expect GS to move against our units in the east coast. That would free up a lot of units for them that are currently protecting that area.

I will take a look at city placement tonight and see if I can find any way of making more cities near Voice work reasonably well. I will also take a look and see how bad corruption would be if we placed a city S of Elipolis.

I had a great weekend but tired after four events; straight race, oral race, conformation match, and lure coursing. Reddi won his class in the conformation match. He did not win any of the others but did well and placed in all of them. He won the overall top whippet Northwest Versatility award based on combined results of all events for the weekend.

Sometime Wednesday I will be heading our for nearly two weeks to attend events in Colorado and Utah.

	28-05-2003 05:06									#179
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Harry - congrats on the weekend. Extra milkbone for Reddi! And a beer or glass of wine for Harry!

I agree with your analysis on GS' probable approach. That is why I asked earlier if we should pull back. We can create a pretty good stalemate - once we have pikemen and catapults up there as well. I agree on the walls for D'ville. Will check next turn.

And Witt - I am right with you about GoW. If they think this is about keeping to an ageement to provide 4 or 6 units - then I will negotiate a deal for chivalry and then tell them to stick it.

I would rather make peace with GS, and go romping on Bob - than play patsies for the Bobians beating our brains out against GS. Unless there is a concerted and significant effort to help us in the war - and I mean all four civs - then we need to reconsider. And if that means giving up territory - then so be it as far as I am concerned. I would rather have the north-east corner of Bob than the land south of Elipolis anyways.

But - that being said - plan A is still to defeat GS. But for that we need support - and lots of it.

	28-05-2003 08:36									#180
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470 bc turn played. No screenshots, It is late. And I just finished a long spdg turn chat.

We have feudalism and 3 pikemen upgraded. More on their way. Also - 3 catapults produced - and more on their way.

No attacks from GS.

Nothing much else to report.

We have some FA work to attend to - RP, GoW, Lego, a follow-up with GS, and horses from NeuD.

Oh yes - sent feudalsim to Lego - asking for them to consider a partial loan forgiveness.