11-04-2003 23:29									#61
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Congratulations on our victory! Any ideas for the naming of our unit (if he should survive)?

I think the Elite status should be preserved. This is depending on the screenshots from GoW, but if we move both Vets onto the Elite, we keep the chance of attacking with first a Vet, and then the Elite. The Vet defending has almost as good a chance to retreat, and better chance to actually cause damage to the Immortal.

Vox's main stack is probably in Dissidentville at this point. That gives 3 turns before we'd want to attack out of Arashi, 4 if they plan on keepign to the Mountains and don't want to plow through Vet spears fortified 9 of Arashi.

Also, if we move Monsoon's spear 66 onto the Mountain there, it may draw their stack towards Monsoon, and at the very least will block Vox's Spear from moving to that tile to set up camp for their main stack.

If the Warrior gets on the road 2, he can be upgraded in 2-3 turns to a Med Inf. We should have the cash in time now to upgrade just about all our units. This would block the Spear from cutting off our road access to Monsoon next turn too.

	11-04-2003 23:36									#62
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Another reason to get Feudalism ASAP (in 2 turns): it would serve as a pleasant surprise to GoW, and we want them to feel happy about this agreement, and that they're getting more than they asked for, for the sake of future deals.

	11-04-2003 23:37									#63
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I can't write a story in time for this turn, but I could for next one if we want to wait another turn to do the switch. I need to get to work now. I'll be back to finish playing around 8:00 P.M. Apolyton time. Please discuss the issues I've raised between now and then so we'll be ready to wrap things up as quickly as is practical. Nathan

Lets not post something about the pyramids until we've built them, I would hate to see the embarassment and fallout otherwise

	11-04-2003 23:37									#64
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We are certain that Vox can't land more than 1 unit near Hurricane for 3 turns. If they are sending a Galley, we will be in a position to see it after next turn (if we move both Vet WC's to protect our Elite).

I'd favor moving 2 Vet Swords and the last remaining Warrior to Sandstorm this turn. If we see a Galley heading S, the Warrior can move back and be upgraded (Ctrl-Shift-U on the other Warrior outside a Barracks city).

Arashi is going to be our best bet to break this invasion. In 3 turns Hurricane will be able to pump out a WC every single turn (we can get the mine done in 3 more turns for 30 per turn shields), and EotS a Pike every turn, so should be safe enough from Galley landings at that point.

	11-04-2003 23:39									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Congratulations on our victory! Any ideas for the naming of our unit (if he should survive)? I think the Elite status should be preserved. This is depending on the screenshots from GoW, but if we move both Vets onto the Elite, we keep the chance of attacking with first a Vet, and then the Elite. The Vet defending has almost as good a chance to retreat, and better chance to actually cause damage to the Immortal. Vox's main stack is probably in Dissidentville at this point. That gives 3 turns before we'd want to attack out of Arashi, 4 if they plan on keepign to the Mountains and don't want to plow through Vet spears fortified 9 of Arashi. Also, if we move Monsoon's spear 66 onto the Mountain there, it may draw their stack towards Monsoon, and at the very least will block Vox's Spear from moving to that tile to set up camp for their main stack. If the Warrior gets on the road 2, he can be upgraded in 2-3 turns to a Med Inf. We should have the cash in time now to upgrade just about all our units. This would block the Spear from cutting off our road access to Monsoon next turn too.

I agree with the above. The elite should be saved for later.

How wounded is the chariot? It might have enough juice to finish off the wounded immortal the next turn.

	11-04-2003 23:43									#66
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The chariot has two HP remaining.

	11-04-2003 23:46									#67
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I concur with getting feudalism for pikemen & med inf.

I remain unsure about covering the elite WC with vet WCs. I could go either way on that one.

Arashi is clearly the key to our defense. All we need is a pikeman up on the mountain "9" from Arashi to force any invaders down onto flat land. I'd like a road on that mountain as soon as we can manage it.

What did Vox do with the spearman they had up in the Spinebreaker mountains near the iron? Did it advance, retreat, or stay put?

-Arrian

	11-04-2003 23:48									#68
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Lets not post something about the pyramids until we've built them, I would hate to see the embarassment and fallout otherwise

Well.. there is no risk if we wait until the last turn. After that, no civ is able to switch wonders, and build it in the same turn (well, they would be if they would finish a tech they are researching, but it's highly unlikely they would risk that just to avoid detection)

DeepO

	11-04-2003 23:50									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber The chariot has two HP remaining.

Correction 3 HP remaining. He turned elite after he had slain that immortal.

DeepO

	11-04-2003 23:55									#70
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quote: I'd like a road on that mountain as soon as we can manage it.

Road should be done in 3 turns. That's before Vox's stack could get there.

quote: What did Vox do with the spearman they had up in the Spinebreaker mountains near the iron?

It moved 2. There is another Spear (regular) 8 from it.

	12-04-2003 00:12									#71
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Correction 3 HP remaining. He turned elite after he had slain that immortal. DeepO

Not bad. If we move to protect it, and that chariot takes a hit or two off the immortal (was it regular or vet, the remaining immortal?) and then retreats, then we might risk taking out the other immortal. I probably would if it was an SP game.
OTOH, if they see two Wc's there, they might pull the immortal back (if they can) to a mountain and hunker down. If we got a leader, then........wowzers. and I imagine that every immortal is nearly priceless for them.

I am slightly concerned about the mountains near Hurricane, there is an opening there between the warrior and the worker where they could land a pair of immortals. Granted, they probably don't know the geography (I have no clue what they can see at this point).



So earliest eta on the vox army (assuming it is in D'ville) is 4 turns to attack monsoon. 4 to attack Arashi (leaving them on g'land) 5 turns to attack Arashi via mountain pass.

Say we're facing 20 immortals. Can we hold Arashi? Would walls benefit Arashi? Monsoon, is written off if they strike.

I doubt that Vox would divide up task forces, as the road through d'ville is so much shorter due to the road than to come down to where they are parked now in the east.

	12-04-2003 00:34									#72
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If it's 20 Immortals, we probably lose Arashi. The exception would be if they go for Monsoon first, which would buy us enough time to get enough Pikes/Swords in Arashi that they would likely lose a full assault.

I think we can hold Tempest though. Our problem is they can just bypass our cities until they find one they like as long as they stay on the Spinebreaker. Their problem is that every turn they don't hit us, we gain strength in comparison to them. Also, the further they move into our territory, the less able they are to heal up. So we should fight for every inch to delay them as much as possible.

Maybe we should switch Monsoon to a Catapult (and have Hurricane produce Cats until it gets to 30 shields per turn). Cats will allow us to slowly take down their stack if they choose to bypass cities, and make the cities harder to take. At this point they are probably worth more than WC's to us, as WC's won't help a whole lot unless Vox moves onto the flats.

The problem with cats is that we stand to lose a few. I wouldn't mind trading Immortals in their stacks for Cats though... especially as they can't take Cats on many of our Mountains, and so it restricts their stack's movement if they want to keep them. It would take about 3 Immortals (figuring mostly vets) for every Pike defended with a Cat on Mountains and Hills (in a city walls situation). So the Cats can actually be bait to get them to attack when we have the advantage.

Vet Immortal vs Vet Spear fortified on a Mountain:

23.8%

Reg Immortal vs Vest Spear fortified on a Mountain:

14.3%

Vet Immortal vs Vet Spear and Cat fortified on Mountain:

14.3%-23.8% (depending on if the Cat hits or not)

Reg Immortal vs Vet Spear and Cat fortified on Mountain:

6.7%-14.3%

----------------------

With those kind of odds, just about every Pike they kill will be upgraded to elite between Immortal attacks. That makes it really costly for Vox.

Cats will give us better shots at Leaders, a lower attrition rate, and keep Vox from being able to viable bypass cities, as their troops will be losing hps as they stay in our territory.

	12-04-2003 00:56									#73
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I would like to have a few catapults, yes.

With a pikeman fortified on a mountain, with a cat or two, we can fire at passing stacks of Immortals and then kill with WCs.

I would only build cats in cities without barracks, though, for efficiency's sake. Cities with barracks are capable of building veteran units, which I think take priority (at least right now, while we're weak).

-Arrian

	12-04-2003 01:11									#74
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We can have 4 pikes ready at the tile 9 from Arashi, wouldn't that be enough to force 20 immortals of the mountain? The problem is, though, that if they move to the other side of the river, we would get disadvantaged (better defense) when attacking them from Arashi. They would to, of course, but if I was Vox with 20 immortals, I would first of all try to advance to Arashi (it's bigger, plus has a better access route), not Monsoon. Then, when faced with 4 pikes, I would go over the river. Next turn, I would take all I have, and either advance on SandStorm, or go for Arashi anyway. Keeping wondering around in enemy territory is not something you want to do with 4 attack units picking away at you.

BTW, Don't foret one thing: Vox has more cash then it can use. One very good way of investing it would be in investigating cities they can see, so a trap in Arashi might not work exactly as planned if they see what is coming. Better to leave some units out of our cities, out of sight, but in reach for as long as possible.

DeepO

	12-04-2003 01:18									#75
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I think we want to keep most of our WC's E of the Spinebreaker in case they do try to go for Sandstorm. If they move onto the flats we can hit and run, hopefully convincing them to move back onto the Mountains. Reinforcements from Hurricane and EotS would be readily available at that point too.

Cats can still hit them if they move across the river too.

	12-04-2003 01:22									#76
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO We can have 4 pikes ready at the tile 9 from Arashi, wouldn't that be enough to force 20 immortals of the mountain? The problem is, though, that if they move to the other side of the river, we would get disadvantaged (better defense) when attacking them from Arashi. They would to, of course, but if I was Vox with 20 immortals, I would first of all try to advance to Arashi (it's bigger, plus has a better access route), not Monsoon. Then, when faced with 4 pikes, I would go over the river. Next turn, I would take all I have, and either advance on SandStorm, or go for Arashi anyway. Keeping wondering around in enemy territory is not something you want to do with 4 attack units picking away at you.

But the thing is, what do they know about our cities? We know they can see monsoon, as they have named it. But what else can they see?

Another vox mistake: they should have sent out scouts. They have no clue of anthying other than monsoon and EoS (I think)

quote: Originally posted by DeepO BTW, Don't foret one thing: Vox has more cash then it can use. One very good way of investing it would be in investigating cities they can see, so a trap in Arashi might not work exactly as planned if they see what is coming. Better to leave some units out of our cities, out of sight, but in reach for as long as possible. DeepO

How do we know what the treasury of Vox is? I assume that RP is at least feeding them some bank, as it would be per their nature. Now in a GA, they can make some more, but I don't know what we're facing. They could be saving it to upgrade spears (har-har) or more warriors to immortals. probably be too pricey to do more than a couple I would think

	12-04-2003 01:58									#77
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Re: cats: sure, I like those. But can we really build them now, instead of going for spears first?

Asleep: They know Monsoon and Arashi because they can currently see them (they have a spear on a mountain 2 tiles away), further they know there is a city at the space sandstorm is, if I'm not mistaken, because they should be able to see the start of its cultural borders. Further, they know EotS, of course, but that's it.

They should send out scouts, but any scout would be killed immediately. They could send their galleys, though, to have at least some scouting done.

Treasury: they had roughly 10 warriors to be upgraded, and can't use gold in any other way in game (except for trades). Further, they have been at 100% tax for at least 20 turns or so, after we got Polytheism they said they were starting to gather cash. That should be good for some 400 gold in itself.

Add to that what they have gotten from selling Monotheism, and possibly republic, and you get to another 600-700 gold (GoW indicated 225 gold for mono, both RP and ND will have received similar deals. Lego got Mono for 70 or so gold).
Last income: they have gained 95 from us the moment we started the war. And currently, their GA is at least giving some better commerce.

What did they paid for in the last 20 turns? well, upgrades for 10 warriors, meaning 400 gold. Probably 200 or so gold for the WM, maybe as part of the mono deal. And that's it...

Counting it all up, and they would have some 500 gold at least, most likely more. And investigating a city isn't that expensive if it's not too big.

DeepO

	12-04-2003 02:02									#78
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BTW, GoW asked somewhere if Vox would pay back whatever they got from GoW, in case they would conquer Port isolation. So, there would be some more gold going to Vox's coffers there.

DeepO

	12-04-2003 02:05									#79
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Counting it all up, and they would have some 500 gold at least, most likely more. And investigating a city isn't that expensive if it's not too big. DeepO

Ah, add gold from RP and you have quite a lot.

What I would do then, if I were Vox, would be, taking into consideration the pathetic infrastructure (shield production) and large bank account, to sever the iron connectoin, build a ton of cheap warriors, then blow the bank on the upgrades.

There is no way they could outproduce us if they were doing immortals, but if they did cheap warriors, then upgrade, then they would be better.

Of course, the key is to hold the iron deposit and road, and keep the ability to rebuld the connection.

	12-04-2003 02:08									#80
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Monsoon is building a Temple. We are likely to lose Monsoon anyways... so it should switch to a unit of some sort.

-----------------

Vox investigating cities with their gold is the best thing that can come from it. Much better than having that gold in RP's hands building infrastructure or upgrading units. Diplomatic missions are not available while at war with the target civ until spy's (at least not in single player). So anything Vox knows about our cities they knew the turn they set up the embassy to the turn they attacked us. They can't see what we are doing now.

	12-04-2003 02:11									#81
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Also you can't investigate a city that you can't see on the map. So at most they could have investigated Sandstorm, Arashi, Monsoon, and Tempest(?).

That doesn't really give them much idea of what we are capable of.

	12-04-2003 02:15									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Also you can't investigate a city that you can't see on the map. So at most they could have investigated Sandstorm, Arashi, Monsoon, and Tempest(?). That doesn't really give them much idea of what we are capable of.

Can you run your scenario from Vox's perspective to see exactly what they can see of our land, or would that be too difficult or impossible.I'm thinking they dont' know the names of sandstorm or tempest (and therefore coudlnt investigate them.

	12-04-2003 02:28									#83
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I really have no idea how far S they explored, other than that they never actually saw Hurricane or EotS.

	12-04-2003 02:30									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I really have no idea how far S they explored, other than that they never actually saw Hurricane or EotS.

I think their spear's location is the furthest south and their immortals last position was the furthest south that they've progressed, but don't quote me on that.

	12-04-2003 02:30									#85
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There's a intelligence picture from GoW in the GS mailbox

	12-04-2003 02:35									#86
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Keep in mind that catapults are wheeled, so we'll really just have one mountain tile in what we expect to be the main theater of operations that we can bombard Vox from without having cats and their defenders on less defensible terrain. And that tile is far enough north that we won't have much in the way of cats in time to make use of it. That limits cats' value if Vox tries to bypass Arashi, and I seriously doubt that cats would do as much good as WCs defending against a straight-in attack.

If we position WCs outside Arashi and outside Vox's line of sight, they give us an ace in the hole. An "investigate city" operation won't tell Vox about them, yet they'll be in striking range. If we can pummel Vox's attack force a bit outside Arashi with WC and medieval infantry strikes, and then face them with three pikemen and other miscellaneous units defending the city (with walls, on a hill), I think we stand a chance of breaking their attack there.

And does anyone really want to bet against Vox's choosing a straight-in attack on the closest major city?

Regarding leaving Monsoon undefended, I'd rather not invite Vox to walk into it with a single spearman. That's not enough of a diversion to be worthwhile. If we can kill spears when they move onto our roads, we can leave our spear in Monsoon stay for up to two turns and still get him to Arashi in time for upgrade (using the trick of having him move in with his movement exhausted but shift-Uing another pikeman). With a little luck, Vox will send some immortals in that city's direction if they don't know what's there. (The down side to planning to defend the Arashi area against pillaging spearmen is that we'd have to attack with regular swords before upgrading them to medieval infantry. On the other hand, victory lets us withdraw and heal/upgrade and means one less spear defending Vox's immortals when they make their move.))

And I still don't like the idea of setting up a situation where we only have two shots at Vox's eastern vet immortal - and one of those with a wounded elite. That gives him probably around a 25% chance of surviving to continue to plague us - much higher than that if we refuse to commit our elite unless the immortal is already seriously injured. There is an enormous advantage to outnumbering an opponent and being able to ensure that if one unit causes damage, another can exploit the damage, and another can exploit any additional damage the second unit can cause if the second fails to achieve victory.

Nathan

	12-04-2003 02:39									#87
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Monsoon would be the ideal place to rush a catapult if we have the cash for it. Our reserves are going to be build up quite easily, so we could spend all we have on rushes we otherwise would not commit mone to. If we can keep Arashi, we don't need to retake it later.

Tempest: Vox was never able to spot that place, so it can't be investigated.

I agree that it won't give them a good idea on our production, however, if we later think on using Arashi as a support center for traps surrounding it, investigating could work very well. But indeed, it's better that they investigate us, instead of giving the gold to others.

BTW, the gold Vox is currently getting from RP is already included in that rough estimate of mine, as it would be payment for their techs. So Vox has no access to the full amount yet. They could agree to buy Monarchy from RP, though...

Last BTW: Nathan, you posted above that Hurricane only needed 10% lux, because of Vox attacking us, that's not true, is it? I thought WW was not a part of WW, and this would be a WW thing. Without it, no citizens would get happy if attacked, so that should come from the GA increase in commerce only, right?

DeepO

	12-04-2003 02:44									#88
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Monsoon's defender: I'm not sure. Would Vox move it's spear towards Monsoon if it was not defended? In that case, it would be easily dealt with with a couple of WCs, which is another unit down, and another possible chance for promotion. If so, moving the spear towards Arashi could be worth more then trying to kill the immortal in the East. That one can't attack at the same instance as the main troop, AFAIK

DeepO

	12-04-2003 02:47									#89
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Things I'd like to see:

All of our Warriors upgraded. We should build some more vet Swords though, just in case and for offense upon Feudalism (don't forget, our own march north should be on teh Spinebreakers too).

Pile as many WCs into the northeastern valley as we can... the two that are 6 from Arashi now, and more on the next turn. We want to kill any Immortals that are near-term accessible there, delaying / degrading their main attack, and otherwise force Vox onto and then off of the Spinebreakers.

A fortified Spear 9 from Arashi. If we can get that mountain roaded in time, that becomes our forward base. A fort would be cool, although by no means necessary. By virtue of having offensive tiles on BOTH the mountain tiles and in Arashi, we create a larger killzone.

I think Walls for Arashi are not necessary, as the goal should be preventing Vox from ever having an opportunity to attack it.

1-2 cats at most, from the non-barracks towns. All towns go military except for absolutely required infrastructure. Consider some poprushing.

Later, Pikes and MedI for the attack on D-ville and the isthmus town, and WCs for all else.

	12-04-2003 02:49									#90
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I could doublecheck when I get home, but I'm pretty sure happiness is higher than gold and furs alone can account for. And come to think of it, I'm practically positive I got a happiness boost in the Euro-PBEM as a result of Alex's attacking me. (You might want to open your own Euro-PBEM save if you have it handy to see how your happiness is being affected by my having attacked you.)

It is entirely possible that the happiness boost that comes being attacked exists in MP but that the negative effect of war on happiness does not. (By the way, I'm pretty sure I've seen happiness boosts in SP when I was attacked while in a government that doesn't suffer war weariness.)

Nathan