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GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:13
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Especially if you dressed them up like Velma and Roxie in Chicago




That would not be funny....it would be a war crime!

AHHH!! mental picture!

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:14 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Why didn't the US forces in Baghdad stop looting and maintain order?

Because it isn't that important. Most of these looters appear to have been looking for a souvenir from a regime that they hated. No different than US soldiers taking a poster of Saddam as a memento of their time there.

Rummy is precisely right. Freedom also gives you the choice to do bad things. Most will settle into self-policing pretty soon and these problems will mostly go away. The Imams probably reminded everybody at Friday prayers that stealing is a bad thing to do.

It also appears that many are aimlessly wandering the capital looking for imprisoned or lost relatives and the like. Or they are curious about Hussein's palaces and just want to see how the bastard lived. Most are harmless and who would want to stop them from doing what they feel like doing anyway? Let them drink it in.

MarkG is offline MarkG
Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see

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Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
time: 07:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:14 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
There's a real fine line that has to be walked.
just showing their willingness to do something in the most glaring cases would stop things at a large part imho

MarkG is offline MarkG
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Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:17 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Most of these looters appear to have been looking for a souvenir from a regime that they hated.
like medicines from hospitals, desks and pc's from embassies, anything you can imagine from stores, etc

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:18
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I already knew the bit about the right hand Suffering from ads?

quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
They like that - that way, they can give the gesture the meaning they intend, and get a laugh at how the infidels don't have a clue.
Just doing my part to make thier lives a little brighter.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:19
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
desks and pc's from embassies,
You never know. They may not be all warm and fuzzy for Germany either.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:23 Visit DanS's homepage!
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like medicines from hospitals, desks and pc's from embassies, anything you can imagine from stores, etc

Once things turn to property unaffiliated with the government, that's when you need to step in. Remember that a lot of the stores were government stores. A lot of the homes being ransacked are those of the Baath party members. As far as I'm concerned, they can have at it.

PCs, desks, chairs, and vases can all be replaced. Don't worry about it.

gsmoove23 is offline gsmoove23
Warlord

Oct 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Why didn't the US forces in Baghdad stop looting and maintain order?

Because it isn't that important. Most of these looters appear to have been looking for a souvenir from a regime that they hated. No different than US soldiers taking a poster of Saddam as a memento of their time there.

Rummy is precisely right. Freedom also gives you the choice to do bad things. Most will settle into self-policing pretty soon and these problems will mostly go away. The Imams probably reminded everybody at Friday prayers that stealing is a bad thing to do.

It also appears that many are aimlessly wandering the capital looking for imprisoned or lost relatives and the like. Or they are curious about Hussein's palaces and just want to see how the bastard lived. Most are harmless and who would want to stop them from doing what they feel like doing anyway? Let them drink it in.


Nope, most are getting whatever they can. Small businesses, hospitals, the national museum, the treasury, banks. Local groups have already organized to stop it, which is called vigilantism and which suggests that ordinary people are also the targets of it. Why do people keep coming on here saying the same things when its been demonstrated otherwise?

The troops have to do something, shooting isn't necessary though. They could detain large amounts of people to be released in a couple of days, hopefully in a calmer atmosphere.

MarkG is offline MarkG
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Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
time: 07:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:28 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
PCs, desks, chairs, and vases can all be replaced. Don't worry about it.
human lives lost during all this (including those in hospitals whose medicine and required equipment has been stolen) can not be replaced

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:30 Visit DanS's homepage!
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I agree that a line needs to be drawn on private property and eventually looting of public property needs to be discouraged.

The US should work with the vigilante groups to stop looting of private property. In the US, those are called neighborhood watches.

gsmoove23 is offline gsmoove23
Warlord

Oct 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:32
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Looting of public property always needs to be discouraged. Who gives a **** if the Baath party used it before, its the Iraqi peoples and it will be needed shortly, I'm not at all happy to see it go into the hands of rioters and looters.

gsmoove23 is offline gsmoove23
Warlord

Oct 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:34
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Got spare money?

neighborhood watches... what do you call them when they start beatings and lynchings?

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:34 Visit DanS's homepage!
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human lives lost during all this (including those in hospitals whose medicine and required equipment has been stolen) can not be replaced

The army and marines are stepping in to hospitals as resources and opportunity allows. The army and marines haven't even cleared some of the city, remember!

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:36
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I have just finished reading the posts on page two of this thread. The posts from Michael the Great and Sava, among others, notes the anarchy in Iraq today and calls for law and order. What I find puzzling about this is that I thought that the left was largely against the police, law and order and were favor anarchy. Was I wrong?

As to be people of Baghdad looting the German and hopefully the Russian and French embassies, is quite clear that the people of Baghdad are attacking Saddam's régime and their allies. The know the Germans, Russians and French were Saddam's allies.

Live reports from embedded reporters largely state that the people are sacking government offices, baath party buildings and the residence residences of Baath party members. The fact that they are looting the museums and hospitals is disturbing; but it does raise questions as to how much these institutions were involved in the government control apparatus.

But I understand that across Iraq that tribal leaders and former police officers are being called back to work to join with US troops in restoring law and order.

Regardless, extreme anger against Saddam and his regime has caused the revenge looting. If this had not happened, one might legitimately ask whether the people of Iraq were sorry to see Saddam n and his régime go. But we instead see that they people of Iraq are more than happy to see his régime go and are very happy to see the Americans come.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:36 Visit DanS's homepage!
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what do you call them when they start beatings and lynchings?

Effective community policing in a pinch.

MarkG is offline MarkG
Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see

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Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
time: 07:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:39 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
What I find puzzling about this is that I thought that the left was largely against the police, law and order and were favor anarchy. Was I wrong?

quote:
The fact that they are looting the museums and hospitals is disturbing; but it does raise questions as to how much these institutions were involved in the government control apparatus.

i beg of you, please tell me you're trolling!!

gsmoove23 is offline gsmoove23
Warlord

Oct 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:40
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Enter the AD-FREE zone

and a pinch is anarchy.

Kropotkin is offline Kropotkin
Emperor
of Ålidhem
Mar 1999
time: 06:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:42
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
what do you call them when they start beatings and lynchings?

Effective community policing in a pinch.

That's a nice euphemism.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:43 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Of course it's anarchy. The government fell on Wednesday. It's also a war zone with a lot of chaos. Be realistic!

MarkG is offline MarkG
Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see

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Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
time: 07:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:44 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
The army and marines are stepping in to hospitals as resources and opportunity allows.
according to reports, opportunity is never given....
still, as the same army was supposed to be able to take over the city i wonder it's not possible to control it....

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:48 Visit DanS's homepage!
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still, as the same army was supposed to be able to take over the city i wonder it's not possible to control it...

Just as it was going to be a while before the city was taken, it will be a while before the city is controlled.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:49
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
quote:
Most of these looters appear to have been looking for a souvenir from a regime that they hated.
like medicines from hospitals, desks and pc's from embassies, anything you can imagine from stores, etc


I agree, Mark, that we should provide immediate security to hospitals, private stores and private banks. But, let the German, French and Russian embassies defend themselves, if they can, against the anger of the Iraqi people who justly are angry at their support of the monster Saddam.

As to the government facilities, I say, "Loot them, sack them, burn them!" The people need their revenge.

Kropotkin is offline Kropotkin
Emperor
of Ålidhem
Mar 1999
time: 06:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:56
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The troops are not that many considering the situation, they are not trained for police work and most of them don't know the language. To think and demand that the US army shall do something about the situation in a instant is just absurd. It's that kind of thing that a confused US-basher comes up with because they have nothing else to complain about at that very moment.

If this goes from here to a permanent situation however it's time to be concerned.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 22:59 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Some more effective community policing...

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm...storyID=2554231

gsmoove23 is offline gsmoove23
Warlord

Oct 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 23:03
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German and French are still our NATO allies. Failing to defend them is a whole different matter then them failing to join us in what they consider a war of aggression.

Yes, the troops are not enough, the american war machine might have charged ahead to quickly, extended it self too far in the hopes of keeping this war palatable to the public.

The only thing left to do is rush more troops as quickly as possible.

Kramerman is offline Kramerman
Prince
UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Jun 2002
time: 23:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Why didn't the US forces in Baghdad stop looting and maintain order? The looters even target hospitals (What the bloody hell?) and ordinary people are afraid.


I gave this explanation back on the first page, and in the last thread:

the trick is detaining them. Some may heed to soldiers brandashing M-16s and SAWs, but those that dont will be shot... and that is all that is needed to start it... "THE AMERICANS KILLED MY [Insert relation here]!!! THEY ARE HERE TO KILL US< NOT LIBERATE US!!! KILL THE AMERICANS!!! KILL THEM!!! KILL THEM!!!"... or somethn to that affect. soon we would have civilians throwing rocks at us and poping occaonal shots.. it ould then probably escalate into a full scale infatida or somethn... or at lest this is a fear of mine.

we need to get non lethal weapons in there... like these humvees i was reading about that shoots a ray of microwaves to burn the skin in an intense, but brief second, or those British riot patrol guns that shoot batons, adn other stuff of the like. Good old fassioned riot gear and billy clubs may also be necessary

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 23:22
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Speaking of looting, how are they handling US soldiers taking Iraqi weapons that they consider to be collectibles?

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 23:25
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Ned :
I think most people in the left want a cohesive society where the strong can't do whatever he wants to the weak. Except for anarchists who believe such an order can be found spontaneously, this aim sure needs some authority and organization.

Ned, DanS, and other conservatives :
I am amazed you people, who I deem intelligent, insist on denying the evidence that Baghdad has entered anarchy, where common thugs and needy people use their force to pillage what they want/can. You seem to believe they are driven by political conciousness, but they are not. They are driven by greed or need, and the general climate of "everthing is allowed".

gsmoove23 is offline gsmoove23
Warlord

Oct 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 23:25
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Kramerman,

Justice has a way of killing people sometimes, even with non-lethal weapons, but if done carefully then the shouts of those angry at americans will be drowned out by those who are happy to have their private property protected. Nobody's saying its an easy job, just that we don't have a choice but to do it. We chose(supposedly) to be here.

Kropotkin is offline Kropotkin
Emperor
of Ålidhem
Mar 1999
time: 06:27
  Old Post 12-04-2003 23:25
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The US soldiers can't just around and take peoples weapons, that's against the constitution you know (and probably against the Koran as well).

 
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