12-04-2003 23:33									#91
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 Kramerman, Justice has a way of killing people sometimes, even with non-lethal weapons, but if done carefully then the shouts of those angry at americans will be drowned out by those who are happy to have their private property protected. Nobody's saying its an easy job, just that we don't have a choice but to do it. We chose(supposedly) to be here.

I agree that it needs to get done, but like many have said before, its a fine line that we must balance on, and we must be careful so we do not fall. We cannot just rush in and impose law and order immediately, as many here seem to think the US should. As much as i hate anarchy, we must be careful. I am really curious how our top leadership are planning to solve this delima... i really hope its works

	12-04-2003 23:54									#92
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I am amazed you people, who I deem intelligent, insist on denying the evidence that Baghdad has entered anarchy, where common thugs and needy people use their force to pillage what they want/can. You seem to believe they are driven by political conciousness, but they are not. They are driven by greed or need, and the general climate of "everthing is allowed".

Spiffor: How long did it take things to settle down in Paris when liberated in WWII?

	13-04-2003 00:05									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

AFAIK this is nothing like the liberation of Paris. If anyone knows, inform me. Besides the snipers reported during the march of DeGaulle I have no recollection of reading anything about anything like this back in august of 1944.

	13-04-2003 00:39									#94
	Support Apolyton

Yes, the comparison with Paris is irrelevant.
Because the new french government has been immediatly operationnal (one of De Gaulle's wishes, instead of letting US army administer the country first). What's more, french armies were the first to enter Paris, so looting or stealing was out of question.

	13-04-2003 00:45									#95
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by DanS Spiffor: How long did it take things to settle down in Paris when liberated in WWII?

This wasn't my point. I too think this period of anarchy will abate in a few days, and I'm more concerned with humaintarian aid than with the looting.

My point was that you and Ned seem to believe the looters have a political agenda. That their looting is their way to cheer the liberation from Saddam's oppression. Do you really think these people are driven with political concerns, or do you think they are driven by need / greed ?

	13-04-2003 00:46									#96
	Tired of ads?

When the Shah fell, wes there mass looting? What about in Belgrade when Milosevic fell? Iremember people romping around the presidential palaces, but I don;t remember government buildings being looted. Was there looting in bucharest during the violent Uprising to get rid of the regime there?

Widespread lootign following the collapse of a regime is only the norm if nothing follows the fall of the old regime, even if the rgeime, as in bucharest, fell violently. "It's a war zone" is not that valid an excuse. when we knew going in we would have to secure the areas. What is shows is an aversion by coolition commnaders to take up "nation building" and peacekeeping duties.

French, german, and Russian embassies are the territory of those states and looting them is not allowed. Ned: did you approve of the taking of hostages at the Tehran embassy in 1979? After all, the US was allied to the Shah regime, and went so far as to allow him to go to the US after he was overthrown. By your logic what happened there was understandable, after all, after decades of repression the people of Iran attacked the symbols of the regime and the allies of his dictatorship, no?

	13-04-2003 00:55									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 German and French are still our NATO allies. Failing to defend them is a whole different matter then them failing to join us in what they consider a war of aggression.

Hah! The Germans and French are allies no more.

We should defend their embassies only to the extent required by international law, and no more.

However, given the shortage of police, it may be some time before we can send help. They should look to their own defenses.

	13-04-2003 00:57									#98
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Hah! The Germans and French are allies no more.

When exactly did the senate revoke the NATO charter? I amcurious, cause only after such a step would you statement be anythign other than a misplaced opinion.

	13-04-2003 00:58									#99
	Increase Your PM Length

Just because they've somehow offended you does not change their allied status. They have not abrogated any treaties and while you may be privately happy of what happened you should be dismayed. Those embassies were an american responsibility since the americans are occupiers and their ransacking will be valid ammunition that anti-americans can use.

	13-04-2003 01:05									#100
	Support Apolyton

For Ned:

quote: France appears to change its mind about war April 11, 2003 BY JOCELYN GECKER ASSOCIATED PRESS PARIS-- With Saddam Hussein vanquished and Iraqis dancing in the streets of Baghdad, the French appear to have undergone an attitude adjustment about the U.S.-led war. No one is cheering the U.S. government, but there's support for the fall of Saddam and the swift manner in which it was accomplished. "The Americans have won the war-- in only three weeks," Le Figaro newspaper wrote in an editorial. "It is a victory for George Bush." Absent now is the criticism that prevailed during France's bitter pre-war arguments with the United States and Britain. French leaders said Thursday they "rejoiced" in the collapse of Saddam's regime, and political analysts said the French people now wonder whether their country was right to oppose the war so staunchly. "The French are discovering the truth-- that the coalition was efficient," said Francois Gere, director of the Paris-based Diplomatic and Defense Institute. Before the fighting began last month, newspapers and politicians portrayed the United States and Britain as "invaders" opposed by the Iraqi people, Gere said. "Instead we see pictures of Iraqi people celebrating-- not only the arrival of British and U.S. forces, but celebrating the end of a regime," Gere said. His words were echoed by Philippe Moreau Defarges of the French Institute of International Relations. "We're seeing a subtle shift," Defarges said. "We are starting to hear a more dissonant voice in France. The U.S. victory has made the debate more complex." French newspaper editorials still retained a healthy dose of skepticism, questioning the whereabouts of Saddam's alleged weapons of mass destruction and focusing on the challenge of postwar reconstruction. But in the war's first two weeks, French media went heavy with coverage of Iraqi civilian casualties and scenes of suffering. The weekly news magazine Le Point featured an American soldier on its cover under the headline, "The Tragedy." Le Figaro magazine showed an American soldier trudging through the mud beneath the question: "Iraq-- A New Vietnam?" On Thursday, media criticism was aimed squarely at the fallen Saddam. Several newspapers and TV news magazines ran lengthy features on the cruelty of his regime. "The dictator who terrorized Iraq," was the title of a two-page spread in Le Monde newspaper. At Paris bus stops and cafes, people enthusiastically welcomed Saddam's ouster, but were mixed about the U.S. role. "For a long time, the Iraqi people needed to revolt against Saddam Hussein-- but couldn't do it alone," said Jacques Bidot, waiting for a bus near the Champs-Elysees. But he dismissed the TV images of exuberant Iraqis as "a lot of propaganda." While the French government stopped short of saying so, leading politicians insisted Thursday that France was right to oppose the war. "Two weeks ago, everyone was taking their hats off to France," said former Prime Minister Alain Juppe. "Today they're starting to say we were wrong. We have nothing to regret."

	13-04-2003 01:11									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

On CNN.com, there is an audio interview with one of the looters who explains that Saddam and his party are being targeted because they kept the wealth of the nation to themselves and impoverished everyone else. There is indeed an element of politics and revenge in what is going on.

I also listened to a report on the radio last night that the per capita income of Iraq fell from $9,000 per person in 1979 when Saddam took over to less than a $1000 per person today. As this was going on, the people saw the Baath party enriching themselves and living like kings while torturing and killing any who complained.

To the extent that the media are not reporting that the targets of the looting are largely, if not exclusively, Baath party members residences and government buildings, they are leaving a misimpression of what is actually going on

	13-04-2003 01:21									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

You have a tendency of going to interviews of any idiot on the street for your evidence. Or using horribly misleading statements like the one you have about per capita income.

The decline of Iraq is predominately due to GW1 and the 12 years of sanctions that followed.

Again, because the media may be reporting something you would prefer not to believe is no reason to believe they are being misleading.

	13-04-2003 01:26									#103
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

DinoDoc, The day Chirac admits he was wrong is the day the wounds begin to heal.

It is welcome, though, that the French people are beginning to reconsider whether the fall of Saddam was good for the people of Iraq. They may begin to question why their government and their press never before reported the truth about Saddam and his barbaric regime.

	13-04-2003 01:28									#104
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

gsmoove, the decline in income was caused mainly by Saddam's warlike behavior. He attacked Iran, Kuwait and chose confrontation that extended the sanctions.

Saddam brought his country to ruin.

	13-04-2003 01:29									#105
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yet the per capita income didn't significantly decline until 1991.

	13-04-2003 01:32									#106
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

As to what the looters are doing: I have seen live reports from embedded reporters who report largely the very same things as the interveiwed looter.

Al Jazeera and other anti-American press are reporting the looting in a very different way, making it seem as undirected lawlessness. There of course may be some of that, but the majority of the looting is directed and politically motivated.

	13-04-2003 01:37									#107
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Ned DinoDoc, The day Chirac admits he was wrong is the day the wounds begin to heal.

The wounds will never begin to heal then Politicians rarely admit they were wrong, and Chirac especially is a champion of pretending having done the right thing in all circumstances.
If you listen to his speeches, you'll understand what an escape artist is

OTOH, it has never been a mystery in France that Saddam is a bloody tyrant and torturer. His deeds weren't prime time every day, but only a few lunatics and extremist pro-Arabs thought otherwise.

	13-04-2003 01:41									#108
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Ned It is welcome, though, that the French people are beginning to reconsider whether the fall of Saddam was good for the people of Iraq. They may begin to question why their government and their press never before reported the truth about Saddam and his barbaric regime.

Yes, we were not aware about how barbaric saddam's regime was. And we never thought that "the fall of Saddam was good for the people of Iraq".
France loves Saddam blah blah blah... always the same crap Ned.

The reasons to be against this war have been said hundred times on this forum, but i guess it's like talking to a wall.

	13-04-2003 01:43									#109
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Spiffor: What led to the change of heart in the French media?

	13-04-2003 01:46									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The wounds will never begin to heal then Politicians rarely admit they were wrong, and Chirac especially is a champion of pretending having done the right thing in all circumstances. If you listen to his speeches, you'll understand what an escape artist is

Hehe, you have a point there Spiffor

The day Chirac admits he was wrong is the day Rumsfeld learns diplomacy
Not something that will happen tomorrow

	13-04-2003 01:50									#111
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Most of the american stations (except fox, don't watch it) are reporting lawlessness all over. I'm american dude, watchin the same stuff you do.

	13-04-2003 01:52									#112
	Support Apolyton

quote: Hah! The Germans and French are allies no more.

Oh man, and America is wondering why we begin to reconsider our relations with the US... Keep it up Ned.

	13-04-2003 01:53									#113
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

DD :
I don't know, but I assume the quick fall of Baghdad, and the collapse of the regime went against the grim predictions. For the two first weeks of the war, a good chunk of the coverage was about the stiff resistance from the Iraqi army down south, and the transformation of Baghdad into a fortress.
The fact that Baghdad fell, with much less blood than expected, was a relief and a joy.
However, the French media has always been skeptical, even the very day of Baghdad's fall : pictures of worried or angry Iraqis were shown along the cheering ones.
Today, I have seen many pictures of the scenes of anarchy and looting in Baghdad, and reports on neighborhood militias, but I've also seen an 'exclusive' (dunno if the exclusivity is worldwide or Francewide) report about Baghdad's empty torture center.

Note : by "the French media", I only mean France2, the big public channels whose info is more liberal than its private counterpart (despite not being extremistic). I am almost not exposed to the rest of my media, since I spend most of my time in front of the computer.

Another explanation could be the massive presence of French journalists in Baghdad, who could have personally felt the collapse of the regime and witnessed the scenes of joy in the streets.
Besides, we've seen many pictures from the Iraqi propaganda (at least on France2), so I suppose it was part of the deal not to criticize Saddam in exchange of a bed in the Palestine Hotel.

	13-04-2003 02:01									#114
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 Most of the american stations (except fox, don't watch it) are reporting lawlessness all over. I'm american dude, watchin the same stuff you do.

gsmoove, I will tune in CNN and see what they're reporting and get back to you.

	13-04-2003 02:06									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Menlas Yes, we were not aware about how barbaric saddam's regime was. And we never thought that "the fall of Saddam was good for the people of Iraq". France loves Saddam blah blah blah... always the same crap Ned. The reasons to be against this war have been said hundred times on this forum, but i guess it's like talking to a wall.

Yeah, containment would work. Therefore, war was not justified because it was not of "last resort."

Can't you see that this argument about "last resort" would have meant that the Iraqi people will continue to suffer indefinitely under Saddam Hussein, American and British forces would have to stay committed in the area, potentially forever, with increasing Arab hostility to our very presence. If French troops were there maintaining the containment, I would not have objected so strongly to the French argument.

	13-04-2003 02:09									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Hueij quote: Hah! The Germans and French are allies no more. Oh man, and America is wondering why we begin to reconsider our relations with the US... Keep it up Ned.

I suspect we will formalize our new relationship with France and Germany in due course.

	13-04-2003 02:15									#117
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

What all need to remember about Hussein, Blix, and the U.N.
It wasn't the responsibility of the U.N. to DISCOVER WMD.
It was Hussein;s responsibility to prove he DOESN'T have them.

RAH, your analogy in another thread, about Blix, alluded to "finding Hoffa".
That's not the case. Poor analogy.

	13-04-2003 02:16									#118
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Ned It is welcome, though, that the French people are beginning to reconsider whether the fall of Saddam was good for the people of Iraq. They may begin to question why their government and their press never before reported the truth about Saddam and his barbaric regime.

The regime was never the real question, was it? The question was regarding the legality of an invasion. As the watchful observer might have noticed this war wasn't started to free the iraqi people at all.

As for you living in a closet the last twenty years doesn't mean the rest of the world has. That the Iraq was a friend of both France and the US for its position against Iran is a shameful spot on both countries governments but that doesn't mean people in general didn't know he was a brutal dictator. Considering your past trackrecord on what's going on in other countries I would like to know exacly what you base your information about the press in France during the last couple of decades.

	13-04-2003 02:20									#119
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Hueij quote: Hah! The Germans and French are allies no more. Oh man, and America is wondering why we begin to reconsider our relations with the US... Keep it up Ned.

Sorry, Hueij.
The USA has saved France's bacon many times.
Screw the Germans. Screw France. Screw Russia.
Half-steppers, one and all.

	13-04-2003 02:26									#120
	Inflate your Upload Space

Some people just seems to have such a naive and emotional outlook on the world of international politics. Oh well, what is to be expected....