14-04-2003 03:55									#151
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Though 6 turns is a while in a war...

Mss

	14-04-2003 03:55									#152
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed ...some flunkie ex-FAM It just kills me to rush barracks just before getting Sun Tsu, seems like a waste.. Mss

good point, but we are in a bit of a unit crunch, and the vets would help considerably

	14-04-2003 03:59									#153
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But when you're at war and the city in question can build a 20- or 30-shield unit each of the seven turns or so extra it takes to build Sun Tsu's (thanks to a GA)...

	14-04-2003 04:03									#154
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You guys are seriously considering keeping on with more turns of wonder building? Moma mia!

	14-04-2003 04:05									#155
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For future reference, don't worry if I don't weigh in with my opinion on something... whoever is available represents GS as far as I'm concerned. Besides, it might keep me from screwing everything up occasionally.

I got wrapped up in playing the AU OCC game... lots of fun.

	14-04-2003 04:06									#156
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I'm a little concerned abou tthat galley that is somewhere to the east. should we consider using the galley duo to hunt it? after they clear the area, they can pick up units from hurricane to take up to the iron deposit. Yes I know that is more inefficient that taking them to the west, but I want that galley destroyed.

Seconded. There is very little in the west for a vox galley to menace, and the bulk of our forces would be close by. The same is not true in the east.

	14-04-2003 04:07									#157
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You guys are seriously considering keeping on with more turns of wonder building? Moma mia!

It is a sign of decadent confidence with a splash of intimidation to build one in times of war. Though enemy propaganda would right it off as an act of "Great Leader"...
But we know the truth

Mss

	14-04-2003 04:11									#158
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed It is a sign of decadent confidence with a splash of intimidation to build one in times of war. Though enemy propaganda would right it off as an act of "Great Leader"... But we know the truth Mss

It's freakin' insanity when we have been attacked by a force at least 1.5 times more powerful than we are, when that side holds the initiative, when that side has Immortals, and finally, when our best arsenal would be tied up for a further 6 or 7 turns while the Immortals get closer.

That's what it is, especially when we already have barracks everywhere it counts!

	14-04-2003 04:13									#159
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Oh, did i forget to mention that we have no garrisons in most of our coastal cities and there are Gallies, loaded, floating around out there?

Come on guys! This is not the freakin' AI. Get it together and respond to the mortal threat, or prepare to have our asses handed to us.

	14-04-2003 04:14									#160
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed It is a sign of decadent confidence with a splash of intimidation to build one in times of war. Though enemy propaganda would right it off as an act of "Great Leader"...

Would it? That would let the world know that we killed enough of their forces for the same unit to get promoted to elite and win another victory as an elite. If I were an "Iraqui Foreign Minister" type, I'd have misgivings about sending the world that message.

	14-04-2003 04:18									#161
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It's freakin' insanity when we have been attacked by a force at least 1.5 times more powerful than we are, when that side holds the initiative, when that side has Immortals, and finally, when our best arsenal would be tied up for a further 6 or 7 turns while the Immortals get closer. That's what it is, especially when we already have barracks everywhere it counts!

Actually, it is, but at this point it is about saving the shields. Sun Tsu is worthy of "blowing" the production on. It keeps it away from GOW, and other rivlals. We can sell all barracks for more cash, And we will be in great shape when the rest of our cities (Liberated from Vox) have the barracks..

Mss

Mssl

	14-04-2003 04:19									#162
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Would it? That would let the world know that we killed enough of their forces for the same unit to get promoted to elite and win another victory as an elite. If I were an "Iraqui Foreign Minister" type, I'd have misgivings about sending the world that message.

	14-04-2003 04:24									#163
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Would you want the GL (either of them) or Collosus NYE? I could go any way...

	14-04-2003 04:26									#164
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed Actually, it is, but at this point it is about saving the shields. Sun Tsu is worthy of "blowing" the production on. It keeps it away from GOW, and other rivlals. We can sell all barracks for more cash, And we will be in great shape when the rest of our cities (Liberated from Vox) have the barracks.. Mss Mssl

There are other, useful wonders to bail to. The GrLib would not be bad.

Also, the sooner we are full on war production, the sooner we will end the war and get our cities back to development.

Aside from the fact, we still are at great risk of actually loosing. Or, say we don't loose, but Vox does well and bags a couple of our production sites and then is in shape to force a long war of attrition? Where does us loosing, or having to fight for an extra 10 or 20 or 30 turns to win fit into the equation of saving shields?

	14-04-2003 04:27									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Would you want the GL (either of them) or Collosus NYE? I could go any way...

The GrLib could help a lot. We could then set research to 0 and rush buy our way over Vox without worry of falling behind in tech. We could resume research when the war is well in hand.

	14-04-2003 04:28									#166
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I would prefer anything over the library. That damn thing is just a bullseye for the owner. RP is already aligning forces against us, we don't need to give them more amunition, especially when it might not net us a single tech.

I said before that I preferred the lighthouse, and i haven't changed that position.

	14-04-2003 04:31									#167
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EotS is about to become every bit as good a unit factory as Hurricane. Indeed, it alone could just about match production with Vox's entire empire in a couple more turns. Add to that at least three cities that can crank out a WC every two turns and even without Hurricane and the fact that Vox has to either coe to us or attack pikes on a mountain and I think we're in good shape production-wise even without Hurricane. Also note that once we upgrade our swords to medieval infantry (and our spears to pikes), that should take care of the alleged disparity in power that our military advisor sees.

Still, having Hurricane able to pump out units sooner would let us turn the tide sooner and more decisively, presumably leading to smaller overall losses and letting us switch over to peacetime infrastructure sooner. That could likely be worth more to us than Sun Tsu's. Couple that with the potential value of the Great Lighthouse if we need to invade Bob sometime before Magnetism and switching to the Great Lighthouse might make a lot of sense.

Nathan

	14-04-2003 04:33									#168
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The Lighthouse would be OK. I would prefer the Colussus. That is a lot of gold over the course of the game before flight.

	14-04-2003 04:33									#169
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To my previous anti-library points, I would also add that it would likely alienate some of the civs we are still on good terms with. It would give us less things to deal with them over and less incentive for close ties. I know it sucks to buy techs, but it keeps other civs happy. And we cant really move off our island before it expires.

	14-04-2003 04:35									#170
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The Lighthouse would be OK. I would prefer the Colussus. That is a lot of gold over the course of the game before flight.

I would be ok with the colossus as well. I think we need to stop thinking (at least me) in terms of shield loss. Its not 200 shields vs 100 shields lost, its what can you do for me til you expire?

How much income would you think the colossus add through its lifetime?

	14-04-2003 04:38									#171
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay EotS is about to become every bit as good a unit factory as Hurricane. Indeed, it alone could just about match production with Vox's entire empire in a couple more turns. Add to that at least three cities that can crank out a WC every two turns and even without Hurricane and the fact that Vox has to either coe to us or attack pikes on a mountain and I think we're in good shape production-wise even without Hurricane. Also note that once we upgrade our swords to medieval infantry (and our spears to pikes), that should take care of the alleged disparity in power that our military advisor sees. Still, having Hurricane able to pump out units sooner would let us turn the tide sooner and more decisively, presumably leading to smaller overall losses and letting us switch over to peacetime infrastructure sooner. That could likely be worth more to us than Sun Tsu's. Couple that with the potential value of the Great Lighthouse if we need to invade Bob sometime before Magnetism and switching to the Great Lighthouse might make a lot of sense. Nathan

Nathan. First paragraph. About to become. Key phrase. Is not yet. I worry very much about us not having any more time to build the perfect empire. They have 10 plus Immortals and building more. Those immortals are getting closer, and closer. I do not want this to be a near run thing. The RNG could very well seal our doom.

Second paragraph. Agreed. The GrLH would be good. Oh boy, oh boy. I can not wait to come in from the sea on an unsuspecting RP like the Vikings of old.

	14-04-2003 04:38									#172
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I agree about the Great [Edit] Library being a bullseye. We're good enough at research that its value would be relatively limited (especially with Education only two techs up the tree), so I think the Great Library's danger outweighs its value. The one thing that makes me not discard the possibility completely is that it would do some nice things for our culture.

Nathan

	14-04-2003 04:39									#173
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I would be ok with the colossus as well. I think we need to stop thinking (at least me) in terms of shield loss. Its not 200 shields vs 100 shields lost, its what can you do for me til you expire? How much income would you think the colossus add through its lifetime?

12 per turn til flight. A lot.

	14-04-2003 04:44									#174
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Second paragraph. Agreed. The GrLH would be good. Oh boy, oh boy. I can not wait to come in from the sea on an unsuspecting RP like the Vikings of old.

And since Bob will shortly be at war, check the GoW logs, we should pick sides and capture at least one city on Bob.

	14-04-2003 04:46									#175
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If we build the Great Lighthouse, we still have a realistic shot at the Colossus depending on what other civs do. (Indeed, we could have the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus both for what Sun Tsu's would cost.) We could build the Great Lighthouse, build units until we're sure we've turned the tide in the war, and then switch to the Colossus with plans to change to another wonder if we lose that race. Building the Colossus first and then the Great Lighthouse would be a hundred shields more expensive, and thus a lot less practical.

	14-04-2003 04:47									#176
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I just checked the map. GrLH gives us very good access to RP that we would not have otherwise.

The question is whether that, and possible hidden islands, are worth the gold given up from the Colossus.

	14-04-2003 04:48									#177
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Capturing a single city on Bob would be a very, very bad move. If we take territory on Bob at all, we need to take enough (and valuable enough) territory to make the expense of the war and the hard feelings our presence there could cause worthwhile.

	14-04-2003 04:49									#178
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If we build the Great Lighthouse, we still have a realistic shot at the Colossus depending on what other civs do. (Indeed, we could have the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus both for what Sun Tsu's would cost.) We could build the Great Lighthouse, build units until we're sure we've turned the tide in the war, and then switch to the Colossus with plans to change to another wonder if we lose that race. Building the Colossus first and then the Great Lighthouse would be a hundred shields more expensive, and thus a lot less practical.

I think that this provides the flexibilty needed for this war.


Hey, where are all the sun tzu supporters? we need input from others too. Thats one of the problems about this setup, it seems that only three or four people are discussing things at a time, and that group is quite fluid.

	14-04-2003 04:50									#179
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That's a long way from now. One other thing. The GrLH gives us a large advantage over Vox at sea. Go for it!

	14-04-2003 04:51									#180
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Who was for Sun Tzu?