14-04-2003 04:51									#181
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Capturing a single city on Bob would be a very, very bad move. If we take territory on Bob at all, we need to take enough (and valuable enough) territory to make the expense of the war and the hard feelings our presence there could cause worthwhile.

Thats why I said at least. and I don't mean to get in a war idly, it would be a careful decision. But once we get established on Bob, and do it legitamately, ie invited by a team there, it will be much harder to get rid of us. No, I don't want one city, I want the southern third of bob

	14-04-2003 04:52									#182
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Getting Sun Tsu is better for denial from GoW (That with leonardos is an ideal wonder combination for a war mongering civ).

I would like to get the Colossus too...

Mss

	14-04-2003 04:55									#183
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Who was for Sun Tzu?

There were several supporters, check starting at page four of this thread. Several have mentioned getting it to deny a bob to have it. I think that argument, while valid, is a bit too long term at this point. we need to think short term, for at least the next 5 turns I would say.

	14-04-2003 04:57									#184
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: 12 per turn til flight. A lot.

We get this from selling our barracks too.
-
I still say go for Sun Tsu.
-
Why not go through as planned and see what Vox does next turn.

	14-04-2003 05:01									#185
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel There were several supporters, check starting at page four of this thread. Several have mentioned getting it to deny a bob to have it. I think that argument, while valid, is a bit too long term at this point. we need to think short term, for at least the next 5 turns I would say.

Getting that extra movement point could speed the end of this war below 20 turns. The exploration bonus will help us find safe land masses.... Freeing up unit production center. That might be a good bet. It will reallly help with the war. After all we are rushing a barracks for more vets, might as well free up production and get an edge (33% more sea movment).

Mss

	14-04-2003 05:02									#186
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Every turn we wait is a unit we lose if we end up switching to a cheap wonder.

	14-04-2003 05:07									#187
	Increase Your PM Length

The Great Library wouldn't mean we'd have to stop research... and it keeps one of the other civs from being able to bypass us for tech completely. It won't pay off as much as Sun Tzu's or Collosus, but what it pays off will be up front.

We could still make deals with civs to get the techs. A sign of goodwill in every trade? It also might slow down the tech rate a bit, as team A knows if they trade to team B, suddently team GS has it too.

	14-04-2003 05:10									#188
	Suffering from ads?

The Great Lighthouse is probably going to be the easiest one for us to get later on if we want it. We don't know if any other civs even have a viable port city yet for wonder building. GoW probably has the best shot at it, though Lego is completely unknown.

	14-04-2003 05:12									#189
	Suffering from ads?

We can send the turn and then decide... we get the 'switch' ability because of Feudalism next turn.

	14-04-2003 05:14									#190
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

When Vox first attacked, my thought was, "Okay, Hurricane will be free to start building units in about five turns. I hope we can hold out until then." Now we're considering delaying unit production there seven turns beyond that. With the way things look now, we can hold off Voxian attacks without Hurricane's production, but I think the extra production will be a huge asset when we start trying to press into Voxian territory. And the sooner the war ends, the sooner we can get to work on the aqueducts, libraries, marketplaces, and so forth that aren't as spactacular as wonders but are, collectively, more imporant.

	14-04-2003 05:14									#191
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by alva We get this from selling our barracks too. - I still say go for Sun Tsu. - Why not go through as planned and see what Vox does next turn.

I think it is high time we stopped dissing our opposition and took them seriously.

What if Vox has 15 Immortals, or 20?

Do we want to fight them at the gates of EotS?

Get that city pumping units, or risk loosing the game. Any deviation from units while we are weak compared to them is a severe risk. That is the situation. Who feels lucky?

	14-04-2003 05:15									#192
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

GoW has already, it has absolutely no interest in the GrLi.
(wether the statement is true or not of course..)
-
You could say tha same about the colossus.
That leaves us with the GL ( no use), or a slightly riskyer but greater return on Sun Tsu.

	14-04-2003 05:19									#193
	Tired of ads?

To risk the game to deny another civ a wonder is folly. Sorry, I can't see it any other way.

	14-04-2003 05:23									#194
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

And I don't see the GrLH as a waste.

It gives us trade routes. Now.

It gives our Gallies and edge against Vox. Now.

It gives us an opportunity to find the hidden islands. Later. Betting on the islands is a far better bet than betting on our war effort while Hurricane delays yet more on building monuments.

	14-04-2003 05:23									#195
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by alva question for DeepO ; If we take Wittlitch, is there a chance we can 'help' Port Isolation flip? Hey, this is really your field of expertise To put it otherwise, would it be usefull to to alot of gold in culture to (greatly) improve our chances?

Can't do that, our total culture is way too low. We could get 4 tiles in its radius for sure, but at a 1(us) to 2(them) ratio in culture, they would only need 1 defender to avoid any flips. That doesn't even include the fact that our palace is half a map away.

To be any good, we need at least twice their culture, preferably more, and we need our palace closer or in the city itself to get good results.

Actually, if we conquer wittlich, we need to be careful not to lose it to GoW. Culture there is going to be a demand anyway, as well as ample of defenders.

DeepO

	14-04-2003 05:32									#196
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The Great Lighthouse could be of either very little value or enormous value, depending on how the game shapes up. If we do end up deciding an invasion of RP is in order, the Great Lighthouse would let us invade directly before Astronomy or deliver reinforcements about 50% faster even after Astronomy. And there's at least some chance it would give us access to a useful island or two.

	14-04-2003 05:32									#197
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'd build Sun Tzu's (or the Great Library then Collosus even), but that's just me. I do foolish things sometimes. (I personally don't like the insinuation, but then again I understand where you're coming from NYE. Keep in mind everyone here has their own risk:reward that they are willing to go with.)

From a team perspective, I think the Great Library helps us the most (and is most efficient), then the Collosus.

	14-04-2003 05:38									#198
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Aeson, what's your estimate on how much more expensive/difficult the war is likely to be without Hurricane's production to help us out?

	14-04-2003 05:45									#199
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Aeson I'd build Sun Tzu's (or the Great Library then Collosus even), but that's just me. I do foolish things sometimes. (I personally don't like the insinuation, but then again I understand where you're coming from NYE. Keep in mind everyone here has their own risk:reward that they are willing to go with.) From a team perspective, I think the Great Library helps us the most (and is most efficient), then the Collosus.

I think we've played the whole game underestimating our opponents. I think it would be very wise for us to stop that. Now.

If we overestimate them and build an army that wins, what is lost? We finish Vox sooner and have a good shot at taking a strip out out of Perfidious Rolebion.

If we underestimate them and build an army too weak, what is lost? The game.

	14-04-2003 05:45									#200
	Put an end to popups!

Here's something else to think about: If we can turn the tide on the war sooner, we can switch EotS and Tempest to wonders sooner. Se we might be able to get a couple of the big medieval wonders anyhow.

	14-04-2003 05:49									#201
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I say go with the Great Lighthouse. The naval benefits would help us out quite a bit.

	14-04-2003 05:52									#202
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Depends on if GoW is lying to us. If they are sending us valid screenshots (somewhat suspect at this point), we can hold Arashi without Hurricane, and it's really only that first assault that can hurt us. Of course I'm not sure GoW is being totally upfront with us.

With Hurricane we can take Vox out faster... and that might be worth more than any wonder. Depends on if we get a Leader or not (why we shouldn't go *too* fast). The FP near the bottleneck would give us about 2x the production capacity for most the rest of the game.

Pop rushing like they have, it's only Vox's first wave that can be any more than leader fodder for us. I would think we can produce about 3-4x the number of units at this point with Hurricane, all as good or better quality than theirs. Their grasp on an Iron source is very tenous too, 2 turns up the W coast by boat and we can cut it off. (just need the boats up there and spare Pikes, which we will have about the same time)

Just my opinion. No hard numbers in there.

	14-04-2003 06:00									#203
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

First of all, this wonder should not keep us from playing the turn, simply leave it at the palace build, and switch when we get Feud next turn. I haven't done it in a MP before, but I can not imagine that the order in which things happen in a MP turn are different then in a SP game. In SP I do it all the times, and I can't imagine others haven't delayed wonders before to be able to get a wonder the moment a tech gets dicovered.

Second, I would go for either the lighthouse, or Sun Tzu (yes, the discussion turned me a bit). It depends on how many units we'll need the coming turns, really. Both have their merits to me.

Besides, I don't see it very well at the screenshots, but wouldn't the lighthouse make it able for us to trade with Lego? Or is this not affected by the GL?

As to how Vox is doing: I think their cities are far from empty, if they took a contract on us with GoW, they are waiting for them to get the first units down, and distract us. But its obvious that they did not move their assumed 20 immortal army onto the spines immediately, and somehow I don't think we'll see them soon either. I do think that we'll get a harder time taking their cities then we're hoping for.

DeepO

	14-04-2003 06:03									#204
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I move that we vote on the wonder and send the turn.

My vote is the lighhouse.

	14-04-2003 06:09									#205
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Damned you NYE, you have put me in doubt now...!!
Seeing Nathan having second thoughts (and others too), isn't doing any good either...

Sun Tsu or Lighthouse.

	14-04-2003 06:09									#206
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Let me make sure I understand the procedure correctly. I think I get the theory, but I've never actually done it in practice at that particular point.

When the tech is discovered, instead of choosing a tech directly, go to the science advisor. From there, switch to the domestic advisor, and then on to the city view of the city you want to change. Change its build order, and once that's done and the tech is chosen, exit the advisor screen and let the turn proceed normally.

Is that correct?

	14-04-2003 06:14									#207
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Besides, I don't see it very well at the screenshots, but wouldn't the lighthouse make it able for us to trade with Lego? Or is this not affected by the GL? As to how Vox is doing: I think their cities are far from empty, if they took a contract on us with GoW, they are waiting for them to get the first units down, and distract us. But its obvious that they did not move their assumed 20 immortal army onto the spines immediately, and somehow I don't think we'll see them soon either. I do think that we'll get a harder time taking their cities then we're hoping for. DeepO

Yes, there is a path to Lego of all sea/coast.

re GoW as a distraction. I think not. Rather a couple of horse in a galley might take advantage of our ungarrisoned southern cities while we are distracted by Vox.

We need a lot of units, very soon.

	14-04-2003 06:16									#208
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by alva Damned you NYE, you have put me in doubt now...!! Seeing Nathan having second thoughts (and others too), isn't doing any good either... Sun Tsu or Lighthouse.

Sorry, alva. Well, not really, but you know...

Lighthouse.

	14-04-2003 06:20									#209
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Lighthouse.

But if I can get a comfortable feel that I'll definitely be able to handle the switch at the beginning of the turn, I can set the build to the Great Library and plan on switching to whatever we consider appropriate at the beginning of next turn. That would provide time for a more formal vote.

	14-04-2003 06:20									#210
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'd vote for anything but the Lighthouse. I'd think we could build it regularly after we've taken care of Vox. By then we'd know if we were going to use it or not.