19-04-2003 23:42									#91
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I would be in favor of the cease fire.

I would also support a lasting peace that would require Vox to give us all the territory up to the bottleneck (they retain the rights to an Iron source, but only through trade with us). I very much doubt they would do so... but that's the price of starting this war as far as I'm concerned.

	19-04-2003 23:47									#92
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I *would* have a peace... seriously:

1. Disbandment of all Vox units in GS territory.
2. D-ville
3. All territory below Eliopolis is to be considered GS'.

We have treated them with honor and respect throughout the game, especially you, Nathan. They have responded with... ahh, why go into it.

From the beginning you wanted to create a partnership, with us senior and Vox junior. Fine, we offer the same again.

They have totally overplayed their hand. Their empire is in horrid condition, and, like others, I predict some more Immortals on the east coast and some Warrior running around. But that's it... and their production power is a joke.

Either they survive on our terms... or they do not survive.

In any case, in that I *truly* would offer this solution for peace, I have no problem with offering a cease-fire to consider a diplomatic resolution.

	19-04-2003 23:58									#93
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quote: if we give them the impression that there is a possibility that the cease-fire would be a prelude to peace, we are manipulating them into doing something based on a false impression of reality

If aanything, the last couple of turn have shown us, that 2 turns can be alot, everything can change in two measly turns. We could wel be at war with GoW in xhitch case a cease-fire with VoX isn't beyond the realms of possibility, even preferable.
Even a chance of turning the table, where we support Vox to upgrade some warriors to go kick some butt on BoB. (this isn't going to happen next turn, but it is a possibility).

	20-04-2003 00:00									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus 1. Disbandment of all Vox units in GS territory. 2. D-ville 3. All territory below Eliopolis is to be considered GS'.

Faced with near-certain defeat, any team will go down in glory instead of humiliating itself and helping another team take the lead (especially us). What would you do with all those Immortals if you were Vox, Theseus? I mean to take it that your "peace" terms are unacceptable on purpose, meaning that you want this conflict resolved now (rather than later).

By the way, no one answered my previous question: what happens to Vox's troops in case of a cease-fire? I'm guessing they would only be allowed to stay put in our territory.


Dominae

	20-04-2003 00:02									#95
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By the way, we can offer a cease-fire without making any promises or allusions toward a future peace. Both sides could agree, thinking it is in their own (military) benefit. I'm sure this actually happens a lot more than we would like in the real world.


Dominae

	20-04-2003 00:02									#96
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To me, a cease fire means that Vox leaves our cultural area immediately, to let them stay next door is unacceptable.

	20-04-2003 00:11									#97
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I think to give a cease fire, Vox's troops have to move out of our territory ASAP. Something along the lines of:

"We are willing to consider a cease fire, but it falls on you to show us you are also committed to such talks. Remove your forces from our territory. If you choose to not do so, the war will not end before the removal of Vox from this continent."

	20-04-2003 00:11									#98
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Dominae, we don;t know that those terms are unacceptable.

And to answer your question, I do not think that I would be in Vox' position at this point, so it is hard for me to answer on their behalf... they may well find survival preferable to combat, even with Immortals.

I would allow them to leave units in place during a ceasefire... asking too much otherwise.

	20-04-2003 00:13									#99
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Is Beta emailing the wrong person the save on purpose to stall, or is it a mistake beyond that. If we can't play a turn til late tomorrow, I will be seriously peeved.

When is the chat with vox?

	20-04-2003 00:16									#100
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The other way we could play it is to goad them into attacking Arashi... where it's about 80% we come out on top (even better if they choose to limit losses, as almost all our losses happen at the end of their attack once the Pikes have been whittled down). Showing great enthusiasm to the idea of a cease fire, giving them the right to declare terms...ect. Something like:

"We are very pleased that Vox is willing to offer us this opportunity for peace. What are your terms for a cease fire?"

	20-04-2003 00:18									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Dominae, we don;t know that those terms are unacceptable.

You're right that we're not 100% sure. But (based on my extensive - ha! - knowldge of human nature) I'm betting that Vox did not spend all this time building up many many Immortals just to disband them and become our lapdog. And if they did agree to disband their forces, they would probably throw in a "Gathering Storm is not to attack Vox for 200 turns" or something equally ridiculous. All this is nonsense in my mind, which is why your proposal sounds more like a dare to me.

quote: I would allow them to leave units in place during a ceasefire... asking too much otherwise.

I agree with you here. If they realise they've made a mistake, they have to save face, else we walk all over them in the future. If they're planning to wait a few turns for reinforcements, they'll never agree to walk out of our territory.


Dominae

	20-04-2003 00:26									#102
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Vox is essentially worthless as a partner if they have almost no economy and almost no military. Still, on further thought, there might be a possibility.

1) Vox hands over Dissidentville, disbands Elipolis and cedes all territory south of the chokepoint to us. That lets us build a city on the hill by Elipolis, and with pikes behind city walls there, the unit cost for keeping Vox bottled up on their side shoudn't be any higher than what we'd lose in a war.

2) Vox will pay us in gpt for the cost of maintaining our chokepoint garrison, since that garrison is needed only because they have proven themselves untrustworthy.

3) We do not desire any say regarding Voxian adventures on Bob. However, should things reach a point where we see a serious risk that Bobians will invade our continent as a result, we reserve the right to conquer the rest of Vox's territory ourselves rather than risk its falling into Bobian hands.

4) If at some point we decide to go to war with any of the Bobian civs, Vox will help us to the best of their ability.

5) [Optional] Vox opens their forum to at least one or two Gathering Storm observers. That would be the equivalent of opening their records and official discussions to us (and might tell us a lot about where Vox's funding has been coming from), but of course would not eliminate the risk of Voxian scheming outside their forum.

Such a treaty would be risky, but it would let Vox survive with their troops intact and give them at least an outside chance of establishing a power base on Bob. (Probably a lot better chance than they'd have invading us, anyhow!) And Voxian forces could still be useful to us when and if we invade Bob ourselves, and/or to help keep the Bobians from becoming as powerful as they would otherwise.

I'm not sure how much I do or don't like the idea, but it at least might make letting Vox live worth our while.

	20-04-2003 00:27									#103
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quote: If they're planning to wait a few turns for reinforcements, they'll never agree to walk out of our territory.

Which is why we should demand it. It's conceivable they double their stack in 2 turns. They'll have that road by Dissidentville finished this turn or next... and that allows them to send whatever else they have to hit us with. With 20 Immortals, even given that we have a few more Pikes and Cats, Arashi is in more risk of falling than it is right now.

We have 5 Pikes, 4 Swords, 2 Med Inf, and a Cat right now vs 11 Immortals. We'd have 8-9 Pikes, 4 Swords, 2 Med Inf, and maybe 3-4 Cats vs 20 Immortals in 2 turns.

	20-04-2003 00:35									#104
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I like Nathan's solution more than mine... so we let them keep their Immortals, but they must immediately head north.

Great idea about having a GS observer in their forum. As part of this long-term partnership, would we allow a Vox observer here?

	20-04-2003 00:40									#105
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The forum crossover thing would likely end up with a BOB alliance against us and Vox. It looks too much like an alliance between us and Vox, and I can't see Togas passing on such an opportunity to play everyone else against us.

	20-04-2003 00:43									#106
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Point 4 in Nathan's idea (the one about Vox helping us in any future war not against Vox) will be the most difficult for them to swallow. Without a guarantee that they have anything to gain from this, they would be a pawn in our schemes. Again, I'm betting the team as a whole would prefer to weaken us than continue in such a state.

Opening up their private forums is unecessary. It just makes us look like we're trying to control everything. They're a team, leave them that at least.

And this "untrustworthiness" is utter bullcrap: once two teams go to war, they throw all "trust" out the window. You can bet Vox distrusts us as much as we distrust them. We have no right to make demands based on our their previous breach of trust. We're making demands because we're more powerful. Masking this behind any other pretense is arrogant.


Dominae

	20-04-2003 00:44									#107
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Having a Voxian observer in our forums would be especially problematic in regard to outside perceptions. A GS observer or two in Vox's forum could be explained as necessary to help monitor compliance with the peace treaty given Vox's proven untrustworthiness, so while it could draw some fire, it would not pose the same level of danger as if both teams had observers in each other's forums.

	20-04-2003 00:44									#108
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Can we cramp a "son of Grog"(scout) in there somewhere?

	20-04-2003 00:47									#109
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Okay, no Vox observers then. And having a GS observer might be construed as, I dunno, dangerous or something.

Is there some way to use the fact that Trip is already an observer? Hans "Trip" Blix?

	20-04-2003 00:49									#110
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quote: Once you're done, just tell me your nickname and I'll authorize you to #GatheringStorm.

I've registered Aeson... lemme in?

	20-04-2003 00:50									#111
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Trip must remain neutral IMO.

I'm not sure about the observer thing either, the forum are private and should remain as such IMHO.

	20-04-2003 00:55									#112
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I view Point 4 as an important part of what makes leaving Vox alive instead of taking all of their territory worthwhile for us. We could add something about the possibility of our purchasing any territory Vox conquers in such a campaign, either with other territory more valuable to Vox or with some other form of compensation, though.

Regarding the issue of trustworthiness, a civ that declares war using an elaborate deception is a lot more dangerous to keep around than a civ that just declares war with no deception involved. In the latter case, there is reason for hope that with a peace agreement in place, the team will be willing to abide by it. In the former, a peace treaty is only worth the combination of military power and mutual advantage available to back it up at any given time.

Nathan

	20-04-2003 01:01									#113
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I'd rather not have Vox's help in a war on BOB. It makes it all the easier to get us into a 3 on 1. Vox, in that timeframe, isn't going to be much if any help, and will be a major diplomatic pitfall.

If we mention an alliance (of any sort) to Vox, assume everyone 'knows' we have an alliance with Vox.

	20-04-2003 01:02									#114
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Regarding the issue of trustworthiness, a civ that declares war using an elaborate deception is a lot more dangerous to keep around than a civ that just declares war with no deception involved. In the latter case, there is reason for hope that with a peace agreement in place, the team will be willing to abide by it. In the former, a peace treaty is only worth the combination of military power and mutual advantage available to back it up at any given time.

I'm not saying that we should trust them. I'm saying that making demands and expecting Vox to abide by them because we do not trust Vox will not work. Vox does not really care if we trust them or not, and we're just assuming we're trusted because we think we have such a clean record.

What this means is that we're going to have a tough time selling our idea that we had to put an "observer" in the Vox private forum because "they cannot be trusted". In light of our already average reputation, this is sure to cause some backlash.


Dominae

	20-04-2003 01:32									#115
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If we prefer, we could leave out the possibility of a future alliance for the moment and hope we can negotiate something mutually beneficial when the time comes. (Edit: If the situation warrants such an alliance.)

	20-04-2003 01:32									#116
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Okay, no observers then... sort of irrelevant anyway, I just liked the RL parallel.

So, if Vox does come back with interest in a ceasefire, is this the sort of peace proposal we are leaning towards?

	20-04-2003 01:38									#117
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I am available this evening and tomorrow afternoon. Let me know.

	20-04-2003 01:44									#118
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The big question is, would peace on such terms be better for us than conquering our continent? I don't think it would be honorable to offer a peace treaty if we're just planning to go back and conquer Vox in a little while anyhow, nor would Vox accept a peace agreement without an assurance of reasonably long-term peace unless their thinking caps are on backward.

Nathan

	20-04-2003 02:14									#119
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The only reason it makes sense for us to offer a cease-fire at this point is so that we can mount a better defense/offense at a later time. We're not really planning to call the whole war off (are we?).

I personally see nothing dishonorable in signing a cease-fire while planning to continue hostilities when it expires. We just have to make sure the treaty looks something like: "Gathering Storm and Vox agree not to attack each other for x turns", and nothing more.


Dominae

	20-04-2003 02:34									#120
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Since the foreign advisor from SP isn't here, let me say what he would: "They would never accept that deal."

If you were Vox, would you even consider a peace treaty that left GS free to attack with knights after another twenty turns or so? Especially if it meant giving up cities and territory?