20-04-2003 02:38									#121
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Who said anything about peace?
I am willing to discuss a 10 turns NAP, or an even longer period of non-hostilities if Vox invades Bob again. NAP is a technical term - it doesn't imply eternal or long-lasting peace, and it has a strict expiration period and nothing committing beyond that.

Last edited by Shiber on 20-04-2003 at 02:50

	20-04-2003 02:42									#122
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wow, I really have a difficult time imagining why they would go along with and cease-fire deal, but if they will it would certainly be to our advantage in many ways. The only possible major downside I can think of is if it gives GoW time to open a second front (but I seriously doubt that any of the bob civs are willing to send units to our continent at this time).

Note: We should certainly expect nothing until if and when we actually have a deal.

	20-04-2003 02:51									#123
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quote: Note: We should certainly expect nothing until if and when we actually have a deal.

Even then.....even then....

	20-04-2003 02:51									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson The other way we could play it is to goad them into attacking Arashi... where it's about 80% we come out on top (even better if they choose to limit losses, as almost all our losses happen at the end of their attack once the Pikes have been whittled down). Showing great enthusiasm to the idea of a cease fire, giving them the right to declare terms...ect. Something like: "We are very pleased that Vox is willing to offer us this opportunity for peace. What are your terms for a cease fire?"

I just saw this (it ended the last page).

I like this even better, especially given Aeson's point about Vox taking losses and possible ceasing the attack.

Let us destroy them, and have done with it.

	20-04-2003 02:52									#125
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I really don't think a peace treaty will help us long run. The continent isn't big enough for 2 teams. The cease fire only helps us if it's 4 to 5 turns, and/or if Vox is required to remove their troops from our borders (meaning no adjacent to borders either). A longer cease fire hurts us because that's a good ETA on cutting off their Iron, and so we end up having to kill more Immortals (and possibly Pikes) than we should have to face otherwise. Shorter hurts us because it forces them to mass their troops before we hit critical mass.

Otherwise we are best off just having them attack and getting it over with. Arashi will eat up 11 Immortals a good percentage of the time while enough of our troops survive to face the next wave of like numbers on the same terms given our reinforcement rate. We lose Arashi vs 20 Immortals about half the time given what we can have in there by the time they could possibly get those 20 Immortals together. There is the possibility they build up their troops even without a cease fire, but with a cease fire it's not just a possibility, it's what they have to do.

	20-04-2003 03:03									#126
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One thing about that cease fire-

in what, 5 turns or so they can get feudalism from GoW? What if they are trying to get a cease fire to gain pikes?

I think the sooner we kill them, the better.

	20-04-2003 03:05									#127
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A cease fire shouldn't affect how soon we can take out their Iron (unless it's more than those 5 turns).

	20-04-2003 03:07									#128
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Too much talk.

KILLKILLKILL!!!

	20-04-2003 03:14									#129
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I think the sooner we kill them, the better.

There's something to that. We're quite sure that we can kill them now; a cease-fire will change the situation, probably to our advantage, but why role the dice if we're confident right now. Particularly since they brought it up we should be skeptical about changing any situation that we should be victorious in.

	20-04-2003 03:18									#130
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel in what, 5 turns or so they can get feudalism from GoW? What if they are trying to get a cease fire to gain pikes?

Yes, that's a possibility... however, if we can cut off their iron (for good) by then, it won't make a difference.

	20-04-2003 03:20									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Yes, that's a possibility... however, if we can cut off their iron (for good) by then, it won't make a difference.

Are you saying that we can cut their iron if we have a cease fire, or cut it the turn it ends and hope they haven't upgraded?

	20-04-2003 03:21									#132
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel One thing about that cease fire- in what, 5 turns or so they can get feudalism from GoW? What if they are trying to get a cease fire to gain pikes?

If GoW did go to war with us, I think we can count on the fact that feudalism is already in VoX's hands (or at least offered in -game).
-
Should we remind others that we have a NDA with GOW and that we would 'appreciate' it that they wouldn't buy it of them?

	20-04-2003 03:26									#133
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Are you saying that we can cut their iron if we have a cease fire, or cut it the turn it ends and hope they haven't upgraded?

If they upgrade during the cease-fire, then of course there's nothing we can do about it.

Another thing to remember is that this is slightly different than the warriors to immortals situation. Warriors cost 10 shields, spearmen cost 20, so the rate at which they'll be producing pikemen will be halved (assuming that money is not a problem).

	20-04-2003 03:36									#134
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lightening just struck me, could they be asking for this cease-fire in order to get into Republic?
On the other, wouldn't make that much difference for them would it? Especially not with 3 turns of non-production during a rather tense period. Then again, they might whipped so much, there just not to produce anythin ATM.

	20-04-2003 03:38									#135
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quote: Originally posted by alva lightening just struck me, could they be asking for this cease-fire in order to get into Republic? On the other, wouldn't make that much difference for them would it? Especially not with 3 turns of non-production during a rather tense period. Then again, they might whipped so much, there just not to produce anythin ATM.

as nathan said before in another thread, despotism is probably the best for them.

Think about the military support. If they have 30 units, thats 30 gold per turn in republic. would cripple an already shaky economy.

	20-04-2003 03:42									#136
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monarchy then

	20-04-2003 03:51									#137
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Does anybody even consider that Vox might see this not as a way to get out of the war, but to let GS live? I hear all this talk about Vox becoming a vasal state (which they will never do, they said so before), where it wouldn't surprise me that the only reason they want a peace talk, is to see if they can extort money and / or techs from us. Something like: "We won't unleash our hordes of immortals onto your ground, if you agree to give us the next 2 techs you discover".

DeepO

	20-04-2003 03:56									#138
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Oh, and regarding honor: I don't see any problems with this, as there is a possible way of gaining peace. I would say it's a remote possibility, but if they would be willing to give up half their cities, move out their units at the fastest rate possible, and attack somebody on Bob in return, I would agree. And take them out in 30 turns, instead of in 10. That's perfectly honorable

DeepO

	20-04-2003 03:56									#139
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Talk about a twist to a story ....

I guess it's true then...., we are arrogant..

	20-04-2003 03:58									#140
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Well, we're not arrogant, but sometimes we get carried away... but with a couple of Leffe's, the world becomes a lot clearer

DeepO

	20-04-2003 04:02									#141
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Well, we're not arrogant, but sometimes we get carried away... but with a couple of Leffe's, the world becomes a lot clearer DeepO

Leffe's???

	20-04-2003 04:04									#142
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Erh... Leffe is one of Belgium's best beers, and we are a beer country. 7%, 33cl, dark Angel's piss. mmmhhhh.... I can still feel it (I will probably feel them tomorrow too)

DeepO

	20-04-2003 04:07									#143
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Erh... Leffe is one of Belgium's best beers, and we are a beer country. 7%, 33cl, dark Angel's piss. mmmhhhh.... I can still feel it (I will probably feel them tomorrow too) DeepO

Ah, nice. I will be partaking of some beer in a few hours, just having picked up a six pack. Not a mass produced American beer, a local one out of Kansas City called Boulevard-Unfiltered Wheat. Not dark like you Euros like, but strong enough for a poor american boy.

	20-04-2003 04:10									#144
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I think DeepO is closer to the truth than that they marched down the Spine Breakers to offer themselves into vassalage. That would be pretty funny though.

For the first chat, I suggest we refrain from listing any demands. We should do a good bit of digging for the origins of the conflict, their backers, their feelings on their prospects, stuff like that. If we can get them to a place of comfort, where they feel able to relate their true outlook, and that outlook is bleak, then we could proceed to let them know that we expect them to pay a heavy price for their lives.

From there??? An agreement that Bob is theirs North of the divide, and ours South of the divide?

We're about to run out of room, even if they accept that everything south of Eliopolis is ours. We may as well finish our means of making war and use it, before the size of Bob writes the tale.

	20-04-2003 04:13									#145
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Is this chat scheduled? I would like to listen in, but won't participate very much to avoid any embarrasment.

	20-04-2003 04:15									#146
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Not yet, I don't think.

	20-04-2003 04:49									#147
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Ah, nice. I will be partaking of some beer in a few hours, just having picked up a six pack. Not a mass produced American beer, a local one out of Kansas City called Boulevard-Unfiltered Wheat. Not dark like you Euros like, but strong enough for a poor american boy.

One of these days, some smart Euro will come along, and learn you Americans some culture. Dark beer is the best there is, if brewed right. But I agree, only a few countries can do it, and only a few beers are really good (strangely enough, all of those beers are Belgian )

After the culture, the first things that same smart Euro would teach the American continent is that beer is a life-necessary product, not a luxury item. In Belgium, we have max prices for beers in bars, like we have fixed bread prices over which bakeries aren't allowed to sell bread. Normal 'Pilsen' beer from a tap is at most 1.52 euro for a 25cl (and most of the times less then this), no matter which trademark you choose. And import is considered less valuable, not more. Who wants to drink a Bud, if he can have a Jupiler, Cristal, or Stella even

And to stay relatively on topic: of course Vox is not wanting to get vasalised, that would be the funniest thing all game long. Sure, they might see that things are not turning out the way they would hoped for, and if they opened a combat calculator, they know that an immortal against a foritified, walled in pike has low chance of success. My guess is that they are hoping to get a favorable deal here, maybe find out who doesn't have pikes on Bob yet, maybe even get Feudalism from us, and if they get paid, they will stop their attack, and try another target.

If they don't get paid, I really see not one incentive for them to stop this war, and the moment they realize that both teams are actually hoping for the same thing (well, we simply need the delay, not any gold / tech), the talk will stop. We can use that time to gather intelligence, we might even get as far as delaying their attack by one or two turns, but that's all we'll get out of it. So, don't start planning on elaborate schemes to take advantage of a possible cease-fire deal, as there won't be any cease-fire, once both teams realize that the other isn't nearly interested in paying for peace.

DeepO

	20-04-2003 05:00									#148
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A 1-2 turn delay, and then a war of extermination, is fine by me.

	20-04-2003 05:03									#149
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quote: Who wants to drink a Bud, if he can have a Jupiler, Cristal, or Stella even

Maes-pils , unless it's from a can then the best one Jupiler.
To all of you, if you do ever have the chance to get Leffe from a tap
Just ask ' ne leffe voer te beffe'
But even our beers oare getting sweeter by the year
ohh one more thing, Stop drinking Heiniken !! * spit *
-

quote: as there won't be any cease-fire, once both teams realize that the other isn't nearly interested in paying for peace.

You might very well be onto something there, I just wonder how GOW fits in to all of this. Vox can't just have bought a cheap contract on us and then walk after 3 turns and let GoW standing to clear up the mess?
On the other hand, if we're not able to use Voxs land, we can't really hurt GoW.

	20-04-2003 05:16									#150
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quote: Originally posted by alva Just ask ' ne leffe voer te beffe'

it has been a while since I heared that one, but it still cracks me up

quote: But even our beers oare getting sweeter by the year

Very true, and very sad. And now that Stella has become the 2nd biggest brewery in the world, I fear it will only get down-hill from there. At least a few brave men are keeping to tradition, and even if it gets rarer every year, I still consider Cantillon Lambic as the best Belgian Beer (yes with capital) and my #1 favorite.

quote: You might very well be onto something there, I just wonder how GOW fits in to all of this. Vox can't just have bought a cheap contract on us and then walk after 3 turns and let GoW standing to clear up the mess?

That could be a possibility... however, if the contract was cheap, it has to be taken either before this whole thing started, or GoW is seriously considering invading us. Bt then again, what is a cheap price, if you are at the brink of losing all?

DeepO