30-04-2003 21:47									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Menlas Contrast the North Vietnam army and equipment with the Iraq/Afghanistan ones. What a difference. (not to speak about the battlefield, which was *slightly* different in Vietnam than in Iraq)

Remember the "battle-hardened Iraqi army" of GW1. The one that had all that experience fighting with Iran and was supposed to give us tens of thousands of caualties?

	30-04-2003 21:52									#32
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Of course Cambodia is related. You bombed the hell out of a non-participating country, thus laying the foundation of the Khmer Rouge, and the Vietnamese conducted the only military campaign in history most scholars, ever Restrictionsits, agree was a genuine case of humanitarian intervention when they got rid of them. An action which, of course, you condemned.

	30-04-2003 21:55									#33
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If they were smart the South Vietnamese would have started playing the Viet cong's game and begun an unconvential war of national liberation.

	30-04-2003 21:56									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Of course Cambodia is related. You bombed the hell out of a non-participating country, thus laying the foundation of the Khmer Rouge, and the Vietnamese conducted the only military campaign in history most scholars, ever Restrictionsits, agree was a genuine case of humanitarian intervention when they got rid of them. An action which, of course, you condemned.

It was officially a non-participating country but defacto they were as closely tied to the north Vietnamese war effort as the Taliban was tied to Al Quada.

	30-04-2003 22:08									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Of course Cambodia is related. You bombed the hell out of a non-participating country, thus laying the foundation of the Khmer Rouge, and the Vietnamese conducted the only military campaign in history most scholars, ever Restrictionsits, agree was a genuine case of humanitarian intervention when they got rid of them. An action which, of course, you condemned.

We attacked NVA forces operating in Cambodia. We did not attack Cambodia. Grow a brain.

	30-04-2003 22:14									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If they were smart the South Vietnamese would have started playing the Viet cong's game and begun an unconvential war of national liberation.

If they were willing to restore their previous dictator too. I think most people wouldn't have died to replace the communists with an equivalent dictatorial regime.

	30-04-2003 22:17									#37
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Why don't you tell it like it was: "America soundly defeated and utterly humiliated by a bunch of peasants and students with guns."

	30-04-2003 22:19									#38
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I believe the term the US government applied to the Vietnamese overthrow of the Khmer Rouge was "Prussians of Southeast Asia" and similar condemnations. How dare the Vietnamese end the killing...

	30-04-2003 22:29									#39
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I've always wondered that if we had chose to do things differently , victory would have been possible. We had a huge thread on this a while back, which asked Apolytoners what they would have done if they were in command of the US army in Vietnam. I'd still be interested if anyone has any thoughts on what we could have done differently...

	30-04-2003 22:33									#40
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quote: Originally posted by GP Remember the "battle-hardened Iraqi army" of GW1. The one that had all that experience fighting with Iran and was supposed to give us tens of thousands of caualties?

Nothing comparable with the guerilla tactics perfectly well used by NV. The moral of the troops was completely different, too.

Come on. It's obvious that the Vietnam war was much more difficult than GW or Afghanistan.

	30-04-2003 22:34									#41
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Buck, you need to do a little investigative research.
Cambodia, Laos, China, all involved.

One could sit at Udorn in Northern Thailand and watch rockets in Laos.

I've no idea what one could see from Bangkok, or other points.

	30-04-2003 22:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If they were willing to restore their previous dictator too. I think most people wouldn't have died to replace the communists with an equivalent dictatorial regime.

They had no such options. The crackdown on the South Vietnamese was much harsher than what they had had before. Millions in camps initially, etc. Their option was to vote with their feet. Look at the differences in immigration rate before and after 75. And realize that the people leaving had to risk their lives to leave (harder to do so). It was a big slave camp.

	30-04-2003 22:36									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Menlas Nothing comparable with the guerilla tactics perfectly well used by NV. The moral of the troops was completely different, too. Come on. It's obvious that the Vietnam war was much more difficult than GW or Afghanistan.

Oh, don't you remember? Afghanistan was supposed to be the unconquerable country. Especially in winter. And the Northern Alliance of no use. That was what was said before we won.

	30-04-2003 22:38									#44
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"Come on. It's obvious that the Vietnam war was much more difficult than GW or Afghanistan."

Afghanistan was known well for it's fierce guerilla fighters, who had defeated the Soviet Union just a little earlier.

	30-04-2003 22:39									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I've always wondered that if we had chose to do things differently , victory would have been possible. We had a huge thread on this a while back, which asked Apolytoners what they would have done if they were in command of the US army in Vietnam. I'd still be interested if anyone has any thoughts on what we could have done differently...

Powell was right. You either go all out and fight a war or you get out but you never just sort of fight and sort of not fight. Johnson that he could fight an unending defensive war in South Vietnam but never invade the North. That is not a winning strategy.

Instead what we needed was a MacAurthor type leader who was bold enough to risk pissing off the communist Chinese by invading and subjecting the north. The point being that now you are fighting on their land and there people are seeing the war on their doorstep day in and day out.

	30-04-2003 22:40									#46
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Right, GP. The Russkies couldn't do it, so naturally the Coalition couldn't.

I have a News Flash.
Russia can't even keep themselves in toilet paper, so how the analogy of their forces and Coalition forces mesh, is beyond me.

After all, Tassadar came here.
I don't see anyone hauling their ass to Russia from here.

	30-04-2003 22:42									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "Come on. It's obvious that the Vietnam war was much more difficult than GW or Afghanistan." Afghanistan was known well for it's fierce guerilla fighters, who had defeated the Soviet Union just a little earlier.

Yeah, don't forget all that fierce US funding they no longer had.

	30-04-2003 22:42									#48
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Go Vietnam!

	30-04-2003 22:44									#49
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Thanks, Che.
Now all that's needed is David to come put in his just as logical 2 cents worth.

	30-04-2003 22:45									#50
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Btw, GP, Sloww, do you support the actions of the american government in Afghanistan in the 80s? I always wondered about this.

	30-04-2003 22:46									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Powell was right. You either go all out and fight a war or you get out but you never just sort of fight and sort of not fight. Johnson that he could fight an unending defensive war in South Vietnam but never invade the North. That is not a winning strategy. Instead what we needed was a MacAurthor type leader who was bold enough to risk pissing off the communist Chinese by invading and subjecting the north. The point being that now you are fighting on their land and there people are seeing the war on their doorstep day in and day out.

We all know how that worked in Korea. No one here realizes that an escalation in our tactics=escalation in Chinese and Russian funding and the possiblity of their entry into the war. These Cold War non-wars were inherently unwinnable, especially when you're fighting a country abutting communist China.

	30-04-2003 22:49									#52
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Personnally, I do not support the actions of the Reagon administration in Afghanistan. They were so obsessed with defeating the USSR that they didn't see the monster they were creating by assisting Arab fundies.

They just kept saying the Soviets did the same to us in Vietnam now lets get even.

	30-04-2003 22:50									#53
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If I ran the circus, I'd bring all troops back from most places, almost Isolationist, briefly.

And start over.

I've said it before, yes, America has royally screwed the pooch many times by taking the position that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".
That's horseshit.

	30-04-2003 22:51									#54
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Thank you.

	30-04-2003 22:57									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Btw, GP, Sloww, do you support the actions of the american government in Afghanistan in the 80s? I always wondered about this.

sure. the Russians were the bad guys. We turned them around in Afghanistan, Angola, Grenada, Central america. Built tons of ships and planes and stuff. Put crusie missiles in Europe. Took the fight to them. Great strategy. That helpe implode that rotted peice of **** that is international communism.

I also agree with supporting the Russians against the Nazis in WW2. That's a tougher call, but still the way to go.

	30-04-2003 23:01									#56
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 We all know how that worked in Korea. No one here realizes that an escalation in our tactics=escalation in Chinese and Russian funding and the possiblity of their entry into the war. These Cold War non-wars were inherently unwinnable, especially when you're fighting a country abutting communist China.

Korea worked out much better. We saved at least the South. Look how much they are better off now than the North.

	30-04-2003 23:02									#57
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You realize, of course that the vast majority of the people you "helped" are in much worse shape?

But that's ok. who cares about them, as long as America can reign supreme.

	30-04-2003 23:04									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You realize, of course that the vast majority of the people you "helped" are in much worse shape? But that's ok. who cares about them, as long as America can reign supreme.

Azazel, other than Vietnam, care to share some examples for discussion?

	30-04-2003 23:09									#59
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South Vietnam, just like South Korea, was a seperate country from the North.

	30-04-2003 23:11									#60
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During the days of Vietnam we couldn't have attacked Iraq without the Soviets commiting forces. Same may have been the case with North Vietnam. Had we headed north of the DMZ, we might have had a fight between superpowers on our hands, with China coming in on Russias side as well.

This could easily have spread to US/USSR forces in europe, where we were outnumbered and outgunned, and the possible loss of europe.

The policy of attrition in Vietnam was the end result.

To leave was politicly unacceptable with 3/5ths of the world under communism and American pride at stake. To stay, well we stayed until people had had enough. We should never have been there in the first place. That you can lay at the feet of Kennedy and/or Johnson.

They got involved in a jungle war on the asian continent in support of post WW2 resurgent French imperialist policies. Like those people were ever 'free'.