30-04-2003 23:14									#61
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Lancer, I think that is a good anaylasis. The Chinese have shown, historically, that they will cross their boarders and attack whenever a foriegn army approaches.

	30-04-2003 23:17									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer They got involved in a jungle war on the asian continent in support of post WW2 resurgent French imperialist policies.

That's not really true. The US had never brought significant help to France during the colonial war of 1946-1954. The communist forces had the upper hand once the French colonist was out, and the US went in to avoid communism to spread.

	30-04-2003 23:17									#63
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quote: Azazel, other than Vietnam, care to share some examples for discussion?

Afghanistan- By supporting the Mujahedeen vs. the secular government that gave rights to women.

The vast majority of the SU- while western republics, such as thew baltic states are doing better, all others, which are the vast majority of the population of the SU are doing significantly worse, with the complete collapse of physical and socio-economical infrastructure. In central Asia, your new allies are just as autocratic as the soviet government, but are weaker, and allow muslim extremists to gain ground.

Check out the UN's Human Developement index of the Soviet union and it's followers. it collapsed after the fall of the SU.

	30-04-2003 23:17									#64
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**** the ****ing French, still and again.

I have to disagree though, on whether we should have been there or not.

As the "big dog", IMO when help is sought, helping should be considered.

Look at the pictures, one more time.

My only regret of my time of service was that I took absolutely no photographs until my day of discharge.

	30-04-2003 23:25									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You realize, of course that the vast majority of the people you "helped" are in much worse shape? But that's ok. who cares about them, as long as America can reign supreme.

The people of Eastern Europe don't agree.

	30-04-2003 23:27									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Azazel, other than Vietnam, care to share some examples for discussion? Afghanistan- By supporting the Mujahedeen vs. the secular government that gave rights to women. The vast majority of the SU- while western republics, such as thew baltic states are doing better, all others, which are the vast majority of the population of the SU are doing significantly worse, with the complete collapse of physical and socio-economical infrastructure. In central Asia, your new allies are just as autocratic as the soviet government, but are weaker, and allow muslim extremists to gain ground. Check out the UN's Human Developement index of the Soviet union and it's followers. it collapsed after the fall of the SU.

Okay Azazel, I'm following you. I thought that you were talking of places we had militarily intervened. I agree with your examples.

	30-04-2003 23:29									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor That's not really true. The US had never brought significant help to France during the colonial war of 1946-1954. The communist forces had the upper hand once the French colonist was out, and the US went in to avoid communism to spread.

"...once the French colonist was out" ???????

Spiffor, I thought that the reason France left is because the communist had the upper hand

	30-04-2003 23:30									#68
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Sure, people live better in Poland, Eastern Germany ( somewhat, very high unemployment, but the despotic regime is gone ), Chechoslovakia, Hungary are better. But the people of Yugoslavia, Moldavia, the Ukraine and Belarus ( weird country, btw), Kazakhstan, Georgia, The vast Majority of Russia, Kirgistan, and others, beg to differ.

	30-04-2003 23:31									#69
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Plato: I am not knowledgeable enough with the facts on the western hemisphere, where the majority of the US military interventions occured. I was born in the SU. I know what am I talking about there.

	30-04-2003 23:33									#70
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Why are you citing former USSR remnants?

	30-04-2003 23:34									#71
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aren't they in eastern europe as well ( beside a couple of central asian states I gave examples of )

	30-04-2003 23:35									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Plato: I am not knowledgeable enough with the facts on the western hemisphere, where the majority of the US military interventions occured. I was born in the SU. I know what am I talking about there.

Azazel, this would make a good thread of its own.

	30-04-2003 23:36									#73
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The U.S. never really got involved with aid to them; or am I mistaken?

	30-04-2003 23:38									#74
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Well, GP starting raving about how great that intervention to help religious fundies against a secular government was, and one of his points was that it helped the US to bring down the SU. Yes, it was an international game achievement. But starting to run around with it, like it some sort of grand moral victory?

	30-04-2003 23:39									#75
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The soviet economy was dieing before the breakup of the empire. Things have to get worse before they can get better. Look at how the rest of europe compares. Had the soviets never been there, eastern europe would be prosperous like the rest of europe. All the problems they are now having can be laid at the feet of the communist empire. It will take some time for eastern europe to get back on its feet.

	30-04-2003 23:44									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer The soviet economy was dieing before the breakup of the empire. Things have to get worse before they can get better. Look at how the rest of europe compares. Had the soviets never been there, eastern europe would be prosperous like the rest of europe. All the problems they are now having can be laid at the feet of the communist empire. It will take some time for eastern europe to get back on its feet.

Agreed. Way to high a percent of GNP on military and a lot of collective agriculture with no way to stimulate the economy. That empire was doomed by failure from within, not pressure from without (although that was rather extensive in many quarters as well)

	30-04-2003 23:44									#77
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You know, the soviet union didn't fall because of it's economy. Its' restructuring began because of it's economy, which was a beneficial step forward. The government fell by the will of the people, since the soviet leaders actually thought that the people were behind them, they couldn't believe that people would want to overthrow them.

This, of course, was illegal. and, as time has shown, highly counterproductive, as well.

	30-04-2003 23:46									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You know, the soviet union didn't fall because of it's economy. Its' restructuring began because of it's economy, which was a beneficial step forward. The government fell by the will of the people, since the soviet leaders actually thought that the people were behind them, they couldn't believe that people would want to overthrow them. This, of course, was illegal. and, as time has shown, highly counterproductive, as well.

I dare say that economic conditions helped fashion the will of the people

	30-04-2003 23:49									#79
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No, the Illusion that once the SU is gone they'll live like "The West" did.

It reminds me of the time than people call the soviets hypocritical by showing their successful ventures to visitors, and tourists, not the failing ones.

I am sure that capitalists show child labour on plantations and sweatshops as well.

	30-04-2003 23:55									#80
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quote: No, the Illusion that once the SU is gone they'll live like "The West" did.

Is this not a manifestation of the economic condition? Other than economics or economically driven things, Religion is the only other "live like the west" item I can think of.

	30-04-2003 23:56									#81
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Oh no, religion is not strong in Russia. It has rebounded, but I wouldn't call them devoutly religious people.

	01-05-2003 00:30									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Well, GP starting raving about how great that intervention to help religious fundies against a secular government was, and one of his points was that it helped the US to bring down the SU. Yes, it was an international game achievement. But starting to run around with it, like it some sort of grand moral victory?

I didn't start raving. And I never mentioned religion.

You asked me if I thought it was a good idea and I said yes. I think the communist dictators in USSR were dangerous evil people. And the world is better off for us stopping them.

You asked what I thought. I told you.

	01-05-2003 00:35									#83
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Fair enough, I apologise for the "raving" remark. ( though I don't mind "raving" at all, that's what rave parties are for, after al. ).

By "Religious Fundies" I meant various Islamist groups that are a geopolitical factor. I actually never mentioned religion, too.


Why do you consider the Soviet leaders dangerous people? more dangerous than the US government? Who was walking on the edge and who retreated for the sake of the world, Kennedy or Khruschev?

	01-05-2003 00:38									#84
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Because they were evil. I hate them.

	01-05-2003 00:39									#86
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Good reasoning.

	01-05-2003 09:54									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Why don't you tell it like it was: "America soundly defeated and utterly humiliated by a bunch of peasants and students with guns."

That's a fantasy story if I ever heard one. Betcha can't name one battle which the U.S. lost because there wasn't one.

The U.S. pull out from Vietnam was not because of a military defeat. It was a political decision.

	01-05-2003 09:58									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler That's a fantasy story if I ever heard one. Betcha can't name one battle which the U.S. lost because there wasn't one. The U.S. pull out from Vietnam was not because of a military defeat. It was a political decision.

Classic superpower response when defeated by guerilla warfare tactics. The US lost thousands of battles in Vietnam, they were just never given names.

	01-05-2003 10:23									#90
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Level of evilness in US eyes:

Nazism > Communism > Fundamentalism > 'Normal' Dictatorships


The decision to use military means is a functions of:

F(perceived threat, estimated cost of war, level of evilness in US eyes, potential economic interests)


Apply this formula, you can find out the probability of an US-led intervention.


Iraq as a case study:
perceived threat = high
estimated cost of war = low
level of evilness in US eyes = medium ( Very very bad 'Normal' Dictatorship)
potential economic interests = high
Conclusion: WAR!

China as a case study:
perceived threat = low
estimated cost of war = very high (large scale nuclear war possible)
level of evilness in US eyes = medium high (Communism)
potential economic interests = very low
Conclusion: Engagement

North Korea as a case study:
perceived threat = high
estimated cost of war = high
level of evilness in US eyes = very high (Very very bad Communism)
potential economic interests = none
Conclusion: Undecided