01-05-2003 10:25									#91
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quote: Oh no, religion is not strong in Russia. It has rebounded, but I wouldn't call them devoutly religious people.

Interesting. I go to a Russian ministry in my church, (best friend speaks fluent Russian,) where there are many devout religious recently immigrated Russians.

I would think Solzhenitsyn would disagree as well, as to the openness of Russians to Christianity.

	01-05-2003 10:25									#92
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Fuk Hue ...Sorry Obiwan, that was for the guy that said we lost battles.

	01-05-2003 10:31									#93
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Actually I think this is true. I would add to your function a variable for pretext.

	01-05-2003 10:47									#94
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Thats the response I was looking for

	01-05-2003 10:54									#95
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We won Hue.

	01-05-2003 11:14									#96
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"Afghanistan- By supporting the Mujahedeen vs. the secular government that gave rights to women. "

Said secular government was an unwanted communist government backed up by a foreign invader.

	01-05-2003 11:16									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Of course Cambodia is related. You bombed the hell out of a non-participating country, thus laying the foundation of the Khmer Rouge, and the Vietnamese conducted the only military campaign in history most scholars, ever Restrictionsits, agree was a genuine case of humanitarian intervention when they got rid of them. An action which, of course, you condemned.

Buck, be HONEST. We did not bomb Cambodia. We bombe the NVA bases IN Cambodia. There is a major difference in nuance.

As to the Vietnamese liberation of Cambodia, all I can remember is that most Americans highly approved of what they did. I know I did. Pol Pot and his Maoist crew of communist murderers were a nightmare when compared to the largely nationalistic if slightly deluded communists who ruled Vietnam.

	01-05-2003 11:20									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Buck, be HONEST. We did not bomb Cambodia. We bombe the NVA bases IN Cambodia. There is a major difference in nuance.

Being that smart bombs were non-existant at the time and intelligence on Cambodian NVA sites was a load of dung there is little difference and nuance doesn't enter into the matter.

	01-05-2003 11:38									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Menlas Nothing comparable with the guerilla tactics perfectly well used by NV. The moral of the troops was completely different, too. Come on. It's obvious that the Vietnam war was much more difficult than GW or Afghanistan.

Menlas, Kennedy knew full well that the ARVN were fighting a guerilla war in SV when he decided to introduce Americans into fighting. You can see a lot of the original documents from the Kennedy library. In making the decision to intervene, some in his close circle argued that the war could not be won unless we took out the North. But there were advisors who suggested that we could still win if we did not attack the North, that is, if we cut off the VC's supply lines and had a 10-1 advantage in field troops.

We all know that Kennedy made no real decision. He simply introduced troops to defer the decision to the future. But he was assassinated before that future came.

As we also know, Johnson deliberately keep American troop strenght well below the needed 10-1 ratio Kennedy thought was necessary to win a guerilla war. As a result, IIRC, VC and NVA forces always equaled or exceeded our own in total numbers. In addition, because they could base in protected Cambodian sanctuaries, we normally were outnumbered by the NVA in most engagements because they could choose the time and place of major combat. This is not what one wants in a guerilla war.

Note, that when Johnson rallied the nation in late '64 with the Tonkin Gulf incident and resolution, many, if not most, of us believed we were going to war against NV. That is what the Gulf of Tonkin incident was about - an NV attack on US carriers. However, Johnson did not invade the North. In addition, he handcuffed our troops in the South by limiting how they could operate and by foreclosing going after the Cambodian bases.

In the end, Johnson personally hamstrung the US military and knowingly put them into a meatgrinder. What the US military could have done had it been allowed to conduct the war properly - with an invasion and conquest of the North - we shall never know. But in my view, the war could have been over by mid 1965 had Johnson decided on victory and not a bloodbath.

	01-05-2003 11:44									#100
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 We all know how that worked in Korea. No one here realizes that an escalation in our tactics=escalation in Chinese and Russian funding and the possiblity of their entry into the war. These Cold War non-wars were inherently unwinnable, especially when you're fighting a country abutting communist China.

This is more defeatist crap.

The only reason China invaded Korea is because Truman made it clear that he would not take the war to China if they did.

The same thing would have worked with the Vietnam war. You intervene, you die.

	01-05-2003 11:54									#101
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Anybody here read "A Rumor of War" by Philip Caputo? It's a very good, objective view of the war by a soldier who fought in it, and who later became a journalist.

It's not at all a patriotic flag waver, but it's also careful to stay away from romanticizing or victimizing the soldiers on either side. Like I said, a good read.

	01-05-2003 12:24									#102
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I still say the U.S. won that war

	01-05-2003 12:53									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I still say the U.S. won that war

You do? Then where is South Vietnam on the map?

	01-05-2003 12:57									#104
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I didn't say which war. I meant ww2

	01-05-2003 13:15									#105
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quote: Afghanistan- By supporting the Mujahedeen vs. the secular government that gave rights to women. The vast majority of the SU- while western republics, such as thew baltic states are doing better, all others, which are the vast majority of the population of the SU are doing significantly worse, with the complete collapse of physical and socio-economical infrastructure. In central Asia, your new allies are just as autocratic as the soviet government, but are weaker, and allow muslim extremists to gain ground.

Still worth it .

Relative gains, man, not absolute gains is the important thing here. The collapse of Communism was all worth it.

	01-05-2003 13:59									#106
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quote: The collapse of Communism was all worth it.

Right. Too bad the Commies at Mylai didn't understand...

Picture edited by Ming...

We don't allow pictures of dead bodies... enough said.

	01-05-2003 14:37									#107
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How such pics break my heart. People can be so brutal.

	01-05-2003 14:38									#108
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quote: Still worth it . Relative gains, man, not absolute gains is the important thing here. The collapse of Communism was all worth it.

For the US, certainly it was worth it. I didn't say otherwise. But was it the better thing, ethically? nope.

	01-05-2003 14:51									#109
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Azazel, not knowing anything makes that easier to say.

	01-05-2003 17:03									#110
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quote: As to the Vietnamese liberation of Cambodia, all I can remember is that most Americans highly approved of what they did.

Not the US government, which was highly critical of Vietnam. "The Prussians of Asia" (cited earlier in this thread) was the term used, and also the title of a tut-tut NY Times editorial. And, no, it's usage wasn't ironic.

BTW, after the Khmer Rouge fell from power, the Carter & Reagan administrations were their de facto allies (along with China). There's been lots of indignant table-pounding over the years about KR atrocities, but the US government wasn't all that interested in war crimes prosecutions at the time.

	01-05-2003 18:09									#111
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Calley got screwed, and that's all I have to say on that subject.

	01-05-2003 19:33									#112
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Not the US government, which was highly critical of Vietnam. "The Prussians of Asia" (cited earlier in this thread) was the term used, and also the title of a tut-tut NY Times editorial. And, no, it's usage wasn't ironic. BTW, after the Khmer Rouge fell from power, the Carter & Reagan administrations were their de facto allies (along with China). There's been lots of indignant table-pounding over the years about KR atrocities, but the US government wasn't all that interested in war crimes prosecutions at the time.

Well, this is very interesting, isn't it? The Khmer Rouge are recognized by most as being one of the most abusive and murderous regimes ever to exist on this planet. Yet not one member of the Khmer Rouge régime has been tried for crimes against humanity. Why? Why, of course, it is the US's is fault.

It couldn't be the fault of Vietnam who controlled (most of) Cambodia for a dozen years. It couldn't be the fault of the UN who has had jurisdiction since '93. It has to be the fault of the United States. Why? Because we have shown no interest in war crimes trials.

Crap!

What does all shows that there is no government (excluding, perhaps, Belgium who likes to indict Western generals like Sharon and Franks while ingoring the brutal Khmer Rouge) that truly cares about punishing the Khmer Rouge. Many of the former régime are still in power in the current Communist government. I wouldn't hold my breath expecting any "war crimes" trials in this century.

Yes, a one-party communist state with liberty and justice for none are the benefits of UN nation-building and democratization.

And we should wish such benefits on Iraq?

	01-05-2003 21:40									#113
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It's a severe overstatement to say that it's the "fault" of the US (and let's make clear that we're talking about the administrations in power, not "the US," itself). But if the US had given the same attention to the KR that it gives to official enemies like Saddam (post-1991), it's possible that most of their top leadership would have been brought to trial.

This was bi-partisan. The Carter, Reagan, and Bush 41 administrations were accessories after the fact. Even the Clinton administration did not turn to this issue until Pol Pot was (literally) on his deathbed, and the KR had been out of power for 20 years.

Also, in its comments, the State Department was extremely careful to limit attention to what it has referred to as "the 1975-1979 period." That is, only during the years the KR ran the country, ignoring both the war that brought them to power and the covert help they had afterwards. Some people, after all, would find this embarrassing.

	01-05-2003 21:56									#114
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Lancer, I think that is a good anaylasis. The Chinese have shown, historically, that they will cross their boarders and attack whenever a foriegn army approaches.

They sure attacked those Soviets who invaded northing China in 1945. I admite they weren't in a position to do much about it but never the less there are exceptions to your point.

	01-05-2003 21:59									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ned This is more defeatist crap. The only reason China invaded Korea is because Truman made it clear that he would not take the war to China if they did. The same thing would have worked with the Vietnam war. You intervene, you die.

We couldn't have done anything to China whatever Truman said. What would you have proposed, escalate to full scale war, forgetting that China and Russia had a mutual defense pact. China was equally worried about escalation which was why they put nowhere near their full strengh into the field. Your ideas would have created WWIII.

	01-05-2003 22:15									#116
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If MacAurthor had stopped 20 miles short of the Yalu river like the Commies had told him to then the war would have been over shortly after Inchon. It's because the UN forces charged right up to the Manchurian border that the Communists invaded.

	02-05-2003 00:02									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Ned You do? Then where is South Vietnam on the map?

hi ,

they still have a government in retreat on the philippines , .....

they did won the war in terms of numers , .....

have a nice day

	02-05-2003 00:03									#118
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A government in exile isn't a country.

	02-05-2003 00:04									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If MacAurthor had stopped 20 miles short of the Yalu river like the Commies had told him to then the war would have been over shortly after Inchon. It's because the UN forces charged right up to the Manchurian border that the Communists invaded.

hi ,

yeah right , ..... him and one mister mac namara where planning on using strontium to seal of the border , .....

the same for the dmz , .....

imagine they would have done it , .....

have a nice day

	02-05-2003 00:08									#120
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand A government in exile isn't a country.

hi ,

who knows , they might go back one day , .....

have a nice day