03-05-2003 02:18									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Of course. And in the course of that entire campaign, the Vietnamese did not capture even one member of Pol Pot's government that should have been tried. Right?

I don't know. I expect they either shot them in the field or simply imprisoned them outright.

	03-05-2003 05:28									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger

UR, your ignorance is showing. You might want to cover up and while you're at it look up the history of the battle of Chosin Reservoir.

The Chinese often used out dated tactics like the old WW1 style "human wave" attack. The problem is WW1 proved that guys with machine guns could just chop down wave after wave while taking almost no causulties. Add in barbed wire, claymores, arty, and air support and you start to see why so many more Chinese died then Americans.

	03-05-2003 05:33									#183
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Q Cubed, Once, I never thought I would see the day the Berlin wall fell. But it did fall. And with it, the belief that communism was invincible.

I now think that the North's time has come. If we can work out a deal with the Chinese to satisfy their security concerns, that regime is gone -- that is, unless we elect a Democrat.

	03-05-2003 05:37									#184
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The North has so brainwashed its own people that I doubt they will never rise up and reclaim their god given rights. That regime, like Castro's Cuba and Tito's Yugoslavia, will only parish when the current strong man dies. Or if he starts a war he can't win.

	03-05-2003 05:41									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The North has so brainwashed its own people that I doubt they will never rise up and reclaim their god given rights. That regime, like Castro's Cuba and Tito's Yugoslavia, will only parish when the current strong man dies. Or if he starts a war he can't win.

But he DID die!

	03-05-2003 05:43									#186
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Yes, everyone eventually dies. Even mass murders who repress their people.

	03-05-2003 05:52									#187
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GP's point is that this Kim is the son of the first dictator.

The King is dead, long live the King!

	03-05-2003 05:59									#188
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Remember that it took 10 years after Tito died before the system gave it's last breath. In the end though its fate was sealed in the same coffin as Tito. It was just waiting for the pin to drop.

	03-05-2003 07:28									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Note, that when Johnson rallied the nation in late '64 with the Tonkin Gulf incident and resolution, many, if not most, of us believed we were going to war against NV. That is what the Gulf of Tonkin incident was about - an NV attack on US carriers. However, Johnson did not invade the North. In addition, he handcuffed our troops in the South by limiting how they could operate and by foreclosing going after the Cambodian bases.

Ned to set the record correct. Johnson told the Nation that the NVNavy using two or four Gunboats/Torpedo boats fired Torpedo at two US Navy Destroyeds. The USS Maddox, DD 731 and the USS Turner Joy, DD 951. (If anyone wants to see the offical version, go www.NAVSource.org/index.html).
Eight days before my discharge, I was on a bus into Long Beach and a Gunner Mate from the Turner Joy was sitting next to me and I asked him what happen over there. He said that if anyone came close to the ships, they were told to sink them. He then said that the Turner Joy radar pick up some boat headed their way. However as soon as the boat were in range of their Five inch guns, they open fire, and one or more of the boats were sunk. The Torpedo Boats never fired their Torpedos.
Torpedo of Soviet Union in 1964 did not have a lot of range.

	03-05-2003 07:34									#190
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Yeah, it's been established that the Tolkin Gulf incident was concocted by the Johnson Administration in order to con Congress into giving the military a free hand.

Those lying b*st*ards killed tens of thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese.

	03-05-2003 07:39									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I still say the U.S. won that war

It did. I mean the US Military version of Vietnam. The Johnson administration lost the first part of the Vietnam War. And then the US Congress lost the final part when they denied assistance to the South from 73 to 75.
Of course our beloved Congresss also try to give Nicaragua to the communist.
Our Congress, what a joke.

	03-05-2003 07:41									#192
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I've heard a few conspiracy theorists say the Gulf of Tonkin incident was concocted but I have yet to see resposible historians say as much.

	03-05-2003 07:44									#193
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Calley got screwed, and that's all I have to say on that subject.

Yes, They were in the village, and when they left, and had just gone outside of the village, one of their guys was shot in the back and was killed. But the reporter don't like to talk about that part of the incident.

	03-05-2003 07:50									#194
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 We couldn't have done anything to China whatever Truman said. What would you have proposed, escalate to full scale war, forgetting that China and Russia had a mutual defense pact. China was equally worried about escalation which was why they put nowhere near their full strengh into the field. Your ideas would have created WWIII.

At the time, only we had the bomb, and we should have used it.
And before you say the Soviet had the bomb think. The Russian had to used their in their test and was building the next one, but had not finnish it yet.

	03-05-2003 08:07									#195
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 Eisenhower had campaigned to end the war, the fact that he used a threat of expanding the war to try to bring about peace is not at all surprising. I would also remind you that it was Truman who started the Korean War and passed the 38th and Kennedy who escalated Vietnam, and stood down the Soviets in Cuba Your view of the Democrats is a little flawed

I I Think the North started the war, by invading the South and then and only then did the US sent Troops, Planes, and Ships.
Wrong again, Johnson escalated the war in 65.

	03-05-2003 08:18									#196
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Uh...there was no such thing as "South Vietnam" until the U.S. created it. The U.S. knew that no one could defeat Ho Chi Minh in a free and open election, so it "created" South Vietnam and installed an anti-communist Catholic (Diem) as its first "president" (okay, dictator).

Diem started oppressing the Buddist minority, and presto, a civil war breaks out in the South. Sure, the North began helping the rebels. And the rest is history.

	03-05-2003 08:20									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I've heard a few conspiracy theorists say the Gulf of Tonkin incident was concocted but I have yet to see resposible historians say as much.

IIRC, former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara admitted this in his book on the war.

	03-05-2003 08:20									#198
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As I recall Joseph has said he was actually around when these events took place so he probably knows them better then the rest of us since he lived them.

	03-05-2003 08:25									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But when the news about the guarantee to Castro and the Atlas missiles in Turkey emerged, we began to suspect that what Kennedy achieved was only a partial victory.

Ned it was Jupiter Missile and not the Atlas. The Jupiter was an IRBM and was nearing the end of its service life.
The Atlas was our first ICBM and never left the US.

	03-05-2003 08:27									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Uh...there was no such thing as "South Vietnam" until the U.S. created it. The U.S. knew that no one could defeat Ho Chi Minh in a free and open election, so it "created" South Vietnam and installed an anti-communist Catholic (Diem) as its first "president" (okay, dictator). Diem started oppressing the Buddist minority, and presto, a civil war breaks out in the South. Sure, the North began helping the rebels. And the rest is history.

And when the South came in, they all lived in slavery and millions braved brutal death and rape from pirates to escape the gulags.

	03-05-2003 08:27									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler OMG, you mean Thomas Dewey actually got elected?!? Why wasn't I informed??

He is talking about the 52 election.

	03-05-2003 08:41									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin As I recall Joseph has said he was actually around when these events took place so he probably knows them better then the rest of us since he lived them.

Yes I was around. US Navy 2-13-62 to 3-26-65. And it helps when you can talk to another Sailor who was there and saw it happen. He was in one of the gun turret on the Turner Joy.

	03-05-2003 09:34									#203
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Joseph, in reading through the posts briefly, did I understand you to say that you think the military led the military activity in Vietnam?
I will respect that opinion, if that is the opinion you take; but I don't agree.

	03-05-2003 10:29									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Uh...there was no such thing as "South Vietnam" until the U.S. created it. The U.S. knew that no one could defeat Ho Chi Minh in a free and open election, so it "created" South Vietnam and installed an anti-communist Catholic (Diem) as its first "president" (okay, dictator). Diem started oppressing the Buddist minority, and presto, a civil war breaks out in the South. Sure, the North began helping the rebels. And the rest is history.

Zkribbler, I would enjoy a link that shows documentation that the Viet Cong were founded by disaffected Buddists.

	03-05-2003 11:19									#205
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Joseph, in reading through the posts briefly, did I understand you to say that you think the military led the military activity in Vietnam? I will respect that opinion, if that is the opinion you take; but I don't agree.

I said the Military part of Vietnam was a victory for us. Think of this, we won all of the major fire fights but lost the war. The only way that can happen, is if someone will not let you win the war. The US Government part of the war was a disaster. Johnson first and then the Congress when you were there.

	03-05-2003 18:30									#206
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Ok, thanks. I agree, 100%.

	03-05-2003 20:09									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph He is talking about the 52 election.

Yes, but in 1951, the 22nd Amendment became law. Truman couldn't run again because of term limitations.

	03-05-2003 20:20									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Zkribbler, I would enjoy a link that shows documentation that the Viet Cong were founded by disaffected Buddists.

That was inaccurate of me. Sorry.

There were of course Communists in the South that opposed the Diem regime. And it was those guys who formed the Viet Cong.

There was also a huge portion of the population in the South that was Buddist, was neutralists and pacifist. I don't know whether you're old enough to remember the horrific incidents of Buddists monks burning themselves to death in protest of the Viet Cong-Diem regime conflict.

Diem took the position that those who were not for him were against him, and his regime began oppressing the Buddists, which pushed them into the Viet Cong camp.

	03-05-2003 20:23									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph I said the Military part of Vietnam was a victory for us. Think of this, we won all of the major fire fights but lost the war. The only way that can happen, is if someone will not let you win the war.

The first sentence is correct. However, there's also other ways in which you can win the battles but lose the war.

First, is when the military is acting in such a ham-handed way that we "recruit" more enemy soldiers than we kill. That was true during the first part of the war. But as I mentioned earlier, the Tet Offensive essentially wiped out the Viet Cong as a fighting force.

Second, is when the enemy is willing to take casualties and you are not, which is what happened in the second part of the war. The U.S. was simply not prepared to continued to take tens of thousands of KIAs in defense of South Vietnam.

I know what we were fighting against in Vietnam--a Communist take over, with all the murderous oppression that such a take over would mean.

But what were we fighting for?? From it's birth until its death, South Vietnam was ruled by either military juntas or "Presidents" who were in fact dictators. They were just as bloody and oppressive as the Communists. South Vietnamese generals were natorious for setting up drug smuggling rings.

Defending South Vietnam was like defending Saddam's Iraq or defending the Mafia. Who is blazes wants to die for that "cause."

We lost the war the day Generals Thieu and Ky stole the election by driving out all the other candidates.

	03-05-2003 20:49									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Yes, but in 1951, the 22nd Amendment became law. Truman couldn't run again because of term limitations.

wrong. He could have. No one after him. And he even had a decent excuse, because he only had one elected term. His first partial term was more than 2 years, so it would conflict with the amendment. But he was grandfathered.