27-10-2003 18:31									#391
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus What was F-P's MP philosophy? Put the pointy end of the stick in the other guy?

RP off bob would be tricky, it can be an option if GoW are unwilling to screw ND.

GoW are seriously overplaying their hand here, they have a deal with ND for half of Bob bit that isn't worth anything as it's not going to happen. It's even worth less than that as they are in serious risk of losing what they have and not gaining anything at all.

We can offer them half or even more of Bob and actually make it happen, we could even offer them all of Lego too if they agree to both of us going there after ND......

	27-10-2003 19:59									#392
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I don't think we can accept RP off Bob. It's something to ponder, but I just don't see it being worth our while. We probably have to fight this out.

-Arrian

	28-10-2003 07:22									#393
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WHOA... friggin' awesome, OPD. You should be in the Foreign Offfice. You remind me of the older gentleman with the cane in Lawrence of Arabia.

[one nit to pick: you did describe RP as a puppet state... I know that that has been becoming glaringly obvious to the opposition, but thus far we have otherwise maintained a stance of neutrality and 'Bob balance'.]

Anybody else feel GoW's pain? They know that the current path is a losing proposition... they are DYING for a reason to take down ND.

Am I crazy? A coalition of GS (lead nation), GoW (mercs in a very honorable Renaissance Italy kind of way), and RP (refugees but, DAMNIT, survivors) taking down Lego?

	28-10-2003 18:58									#394
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guys, before going to far: GoW can't be trusted. Ever. We can, they can't... and we promised to protect RP, so we can't simply say "Hey, go ahead, we'll look the other side while you masacre RP"

As to rewards: They can keep the land they take from ND. We will nog give them anything before we have received more from them (i.e. we won't give them any gold / land before ND is out of the game). We still have our word they can trust, they have nothing for us, so anything that we give them before we get something first I will object too.

Further, keep up the good work, and keep asking for contracts. If we don't get them to backstab ND or Lego, so be it, but at least they will be kept off balance. But please not too many mentions of invasions if we want ot perform one

DeepO

	28-10-2003 19:08									#395
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yeah sorry about that, i didn't know what to say when he suggested we were going to invade.

	28-10-2003 20:03									#396
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no problem, OPD... I think we can force them a little. Plus they know for sure we are thinking of invading them. But it can't become something that gets repeated every 2 chats, or they know where we'll land. Their major assurance is that ND is blocking access to GoW lands, and they know it... of course they want to keep us in that position.

DeepO

	28-10-2003 22:40									#397
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OPD-

good work, interesting chat

you said that some left GS because of the NAP? Is that true? And who left because of it?

	29-10-2003 00:14									#398
	Inflate your Upload Space

Nah I made that up

	08-11-2003 17:42									#399
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

OPD, that last proposed message to GoW certainly is harsh... I would pack it more like: "we would like assurances that if we leave Bob alone, and want to go after ND together, we do not lose more then we already did. Therefore, we think some technology transfer from you to us before we cease our little walk in your territory is in order."

Don't talk about payment, they do not have to pay us to buy their freedom. I'm pretty sure that, even if they see this as a possible threat, they feel confident that they can overcome our invasion force... certainly with Lego backing them.

Further, I wouuld tell something like "you may wish to invade Estonia, however we find it unlikely you would be able to do so... this war is on Bobian soil only for the time being"

Oh. and I would certianly get some inexpensive units back to Estonia, to prevent them from getting any ideas.

DeepO

	08-11-2003 17:43									#400
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Oh, forgot... those assurances are only tokens of goodwill that they would be willing to attack ND, instead of just coming for us

DeepO

	08-11-2003 21:03									#401
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Damnit, we are NOT going to call it an "RPodus"!!

(good job, OPD )

	09-11-2003 00:23									#402
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I'm glad Aggie responded... I was starting to worry that GoW would stonewall us.

Should we proffer terms?

	09-11-2003 01:39									#403
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I'd like to see what their response is first, of course. So far, all the log says is that GoW will talk about it among themselves. That said, we ought to figure out what we want out of this, and what we're willing to offer, so that we can cement a deal relatively quickly, if necessary.

	10-11-2003 04:39									#404
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Still no response from GoW

I don't think we should put any pressure on them yet or suggest possible terms. Perhaps just sending a message saying "if there's anything we can do to help you make your mind up just ask" would be a good idea.

	10-11-2003 11:03									#405
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We will possibly having a chat with Lego dissidents tomorrow evening... we should chat with GoW as well.

I have pretty good relationships with both MZ and Un0... I can shoot them PMs here or at MZO tomorrow, or, if Arrian or OPD would prefer, they can follow up.

But communication with GoW needs to hapen, not waiting on Aggie.

	10-11-2003 16:23									#406
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You go for it, you may want to copy Aggie in on any messages you send to GoW.

	12-03-2004 15:17									#407
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Good chat, Sleepy.

Some extra points for the future:
- If GoW gives Med to Lego, we're still screwed. They can get electricity for the promise they will never trade Med to Lego or Vox. ND is fine, for all I care.
- ND and GoW have to realize that although we are good in research, they will have to share the burden, or Lego can easily keep up. They need to start researching. Both of them.
- ask for an extra lux, and if we can embargo Lego
- getting ToE or Hoover is not a gift from them to us, we will get it, and they never will be able to. Let them know... the only thing they can do is help Lego get it instead, themselves they have no chance.
- I wouldn't say we need Hoover to get close to Lego, we need Hoover to stay close to GoW. ND and Lego will run away in production, whether we have Hoover or not. This is a big difference! We're already #3, and can't grow anymore, the 3 others still have lots of growth left

And I agree with MZ that we need to be more open with them. They should have known our etas on the techs, at least the moment we had them we should have said it to them. We were sitting on ToG for several turns before they got it from Lego.

But all in all, a good chat, keep up the good work! We need an active ambassador to Gow, and we surely could use one for ND as well.

DeepO

	12-03-2004 15:55									#408
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1. Isn't Electricity planned to be traded for GOW's Industrialisation?

2. GOW might be getting a tradeable Gems soon - we can trade that for Incense.

3. We weren't sitting on ToG, we sent it to GoW unaccepted for the two turns as soon as we discovered it. They had (according to the latest chat) agreed to deal with Lego for it long ago, but didn't own up to it when they might.

	12-03-2004 19:16									#409
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Ok, my thoughts on the chat:

We could waive the NDA on magnetism so GoW can sell it to ND for cash, provided that ND promises not to pass it on to Lego (to the extent Lego doesn't already have it). That's fine by me. What's better is that it leaves the negotiations to GoW. GoW seem to know how to handle ND much better than we do.

Second, w/regard to GoW offering not to challenge us for Hoover in exchange for tech... well, I'm actually not concerned about them beating us to Hoover. HOWEVER, I would not be opposed to offering to give Atomic Theory to both ND and GoW in exchange for pledges from both teams not to challenge us for Hoover. If we can get ND's promise as well, it's worth it, IMO. I'd like to include a provision that allows us to hold on to AT for a long while to prevent lowering Lego's research costs. We can present it like this: the only value in AT is that it allows research of Electronics, which allows Hydro Plants. Unless GoW and ND plan on building a bunch of those right away, there is no immediate need for them to have AT. Once GoW & ND are prepared for Hydro Plants* we can give them AT.

* - to me, this means that they have factories built and are prepared to either purchase Electronics from us or research it themselves.

-Arrian

	12-03-2004 20:53									#410
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I'll send zen a note regarding GoW selling Mag to Nd

	12-03-2004 22:26									#411
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They can't challenge us to Hoover, so there is no point in asking it from them. They simply lack the research power to get there in time. The only one coming close is Lego... we can't even beat ourselves to Hoover, if we don't get the 2 free techs.

So, no, not atomic theory for a promise for something that is automatically ours. Let them try for Hoover, I don't care, we'll beat them. They can even have a leader ready, they still can't beat us. It's Medicine we need, and which we'll need fast.

I would offer GOW electricity, and steam, for medicine in 6 turns, and the promise they will not trade it to anyone else during 5 turns. After that, they can do what they want. We have to make sure we accept the deal, so we can start on SM 1 turn before them, and there is no way anybody can beat us to Hoover. Simply impossible.

So please, let's not pay for things that are ours already. We need Medicine in time. Pay for that and nothing else.

DeepO

	12-03-2004 22:30									#412
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

offering them those techs isn't going to get us medicine faster. they don't have the cash to run that severe a defecit.

	12-03-2004 22:33									#413
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We can delay our plans for one turn, and spend one turn of cash on GoW. That's some 500 gold. But I wold only do that with absolute assurances... we're still ahead of Lego, and will stay like that for a couple more turns, but if they somehow get both steam and medicine they can get us. We can afford one turn, not much more.

DeepO

	13-03-2004 01:02									#414
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Ihave nd holding their turn currently while we try to come up with a plan for them to send gow money. should I tell them to just go ahead and play the turn?

	13-03-2004 01:08									#415
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We need to know how much money they need to cut the research time down.

We need to plug MZ for info. Specific questions:

1) What is the fastest they can possibly research medicine?

2) What is the difference in gold between their breakeven rate (which I assume was the basis for the 10-turn estimate) and their max?

I think we could tell them we are interested in providing some funding assistance if they will speed their research rate. Whether that is in the form of waiving the NDA on magnetism so they can get the cash from ND (preferred) or directly from us, remains to be seen.

Third question for them: are they willing to begin deficit research of medicine this turn and trust that we can work all this out before they go broke?

-Arrian

	13-03-2004 01:52									#416
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I've already sent a message to mz regarding magnetism. I will send something else regarding the other points. His pm box is full, so I'm having to email him directly....

	12-05-2004 03:27									#417
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1. we send them a worker and Incense they'll set up a Gems colony for us.

2. Darekill may be regaining leadership of ND on a no-trade-with-Lego ticket.

(see PM from MZ here )

Let's see where the Oil is before discussing the price of Rubber. If GS have no Oil is the priority is to recruit ND for the GAUL effort at whatever cost - give 'em techs for free if needed but with ND onboard we can efficiently deconstruct Lego and get a defence policy thrown in (short term).

	12-05-2004 04:16									#418
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great, CH! Worker will be on its way next turn!

DeepO

	12-05-2004 04:17									#419
	Put an end to popups!

damn, was so excited by that lux trade, I forgot to agree with you on the other point: I fully agree. We don't need rubber right now (without it, rifles are easier to build), so let's wait where the oil is before trading.

DeepO

	12-05-2004 04:42									#420
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We should get our Incense to GoW before RP sell theirs plus Nav to GoW for Rep Parts, Medicine and Wines.

I couldn't believe it - is that the best deal ever or what? Why do GoW even need Navigation, it doesn't do anything in PTW if you have the Magnet?