12-05-2004 04:46									#421
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GoW doesn't need Nav, it needs lux. And don't worry about RP, they're not going to sell their incense if we ask them not too.

What I especially like about that, is that it will bring a lot of our cities in WLTKD, fighting corruption. That 8th lux is important to us. Which is BTW perhaps one of the most important reasons to keep ND happy: we need their lux if we don't want to pay an arm and a leg on happiness... I wouldn't want to need to start buyilding cathedrals everywhere half way in our invasion.

DeepO

	12-05-2004 05:00									#422
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We'd need Cathedrals and Sistine to keep the metros happy if we were at war with ND.

	12-05-2004 05:27									#423
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Sistine would take us 8 turns in one of our best cities, maybe less... We can't build it when in mobilization, though (not even rushing it)

Would maybe be an idea when ending the war with Lego: build sistine, build cath's, and go straight for MAs. Let's just start the first one, though

DeepO

	27-05-2004 16:23									#424
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regarding last message:

I can understand GoW is worried. We should also start a disscussion on how to proceed here.

I thought, that Sci Meth was already theirs, for their help in us getting ToE. Further, we're more or less equal in tech, once refining is exchanged for steel (and we want to keep refining for as long as possible).

They want to pay for AT and electronics, and that's superb. However, only at the last possible moment should we give those techs to them! So my feeling is that we have to agree on a timeline for invasion of Lego first, and couple those techs and the price of them to that.

DeepO

	27-05-2004 16:51									#425
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Yes, DeepO, my thoughts on this were similar to yours. I'll send a reassurance that we'll supply these techs and suggest we need a convergance date.

I reckon that GS and GoW must strike Lego from East and West simultaneously to succeed. Picket ships must be knocked out all round Lego so they can't stuff coastal cities with all their units on one side.

	27-05-2004 16:59									#426
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Since we need GoW to have tanks for this to work, we kind of have to make some sort of deal for atomic theory and electronics (I'd forgotten that MT still has these as a prerequisite in this game). But in order to keep some kind of advantage from ToE (aside from Hoover, which is no mean prize) I think we ought to go for some kind of longer than usual NDA.

We might need to offer one or both of these very cheaply or virtually free to ND to keep them out of the war. Lets learn from the mistakes of the Bob war - GoW and ND weren't willing to offer enough to keep us on side, so we ended up against them, despite the fact that our plans and emotions were heading the other way. ND may want to see Lego taken down a bit, but if Lego realises we and GoW are against them, they are going to be able to offer ND some serious bribery to take their side. We need to pre-empt that - we can get away with a somewhat lower offer if we get in first and have the loyalty factor playing on our side.

Since GoW are the easiest targets for ND is they do go with Lego, we should explain this thinking to them (assuming that everyone agrees with me, that is). Actually, it might be worth giving (selling) e.g. Atomic Theory to GoW so that they can give it to ND - hopefully giving ND more of the impression that this is a joint GoW-GS plan (they're getting paid off by both of us to keep away from Lego's side).

	27-05-2004 17:28									#427
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vulture, I think a perpetual NDA, or a 40-turn NDA would be the same, and adequate. Once Lego is gone, only Vox remains, and they should fall quickly.

We can't keep ND from getting the techs, however, we need to discuss this with GoW. All the money we can get out of ND for these 3 techs (they are not to be given SM for nothing!) should go to the war, and especially towards us still racing ahead in tech once we are invading: I would want us in the modern ages asap.

As to selling AT to Gow, so they can sell it to ND: no thanks. We need GoW as allies, however, we're not without risk either. We might need their friendschip as well. Let GoW handle their own threats, the only thing we should be concerned about is to get them to attack Lego instead of us. If there is another Bobian war, we should be fully preprared to take advantage of it, without taking sides.

DeepO

	28-05-2004 14:59									#428
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I practical terms, I think you're right that a 40 turn NDA is pretty much the same as a perpetual one - if we haven't sold the techs to ND by then, something has gone wrong.

I do think we need to make strong efforts to ensure ND neutrality of alliegence. They are willing to work to cut Lego out, as long as we make good deals. We've messed up with this once before though - and they're basically going to buy off whoever gives them a better deal (and favour us if it close). But we have to be prepared for the fact that Lego are going to offer some very nice deals if they are attacked by GoW and ND.

We might just be more vulnerable to ND attack that GoW are. As we all know, they could gut our core cities and trash our good wonders without too much trouble, especially if we have the bulk of our forces off attacking Lego.

Worse, they can get the best of both worlds, by waiting until we gut Lego, and then doing the same to us. Lego is crippled by the combined strike, and then we are essentially removed from the game, leaving ND vs GoW as the final matchup entering the modern era. And with ND having been geting techs on the cheap from all sides, they'll have the cash to rush and upgrade a good sized army - plus they are better placed and better developed than GoW.

Once again, I'm thinking out loud, and rather straying from my original line of thought.

GoW can't out-research ND. GoW plus GS can, and Lego can. It's in ND's favour to let us trash Lego. It is then very much in their favour to quickly cripple us with a marine / tank / cavalry invasion which we can't do much about. They are then in pole position, and only need to fight a defensive war against GoW to be able to build their way to an SS win (barring some revenge voting for GoW in the UN, or some other weird ploy).

Lego is the big bad now, but ND could very quickly take over that job if they are aware of their opportunity and quick to act. Lets hope they are feeling peaceful.

	02-07-2004 03:48									#429
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damn, saw the GoW msg too late. I already sent them combustion. In case we replay, I will correct it, otherwise just ask them to renegotiate the trade, accept, and once it is our turn, we can close the deal.

They did send the 3000 gold unaccepted, BTW

DeepO

	02-07-2004 03:53									#430
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never mind, Made a mistake and am correcting it right now.

DeepO

	22-07-2004 22:48									#431
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last message from MZ to us is great news: we get flight even without asking, and it will be perfectly timed as well

Further: ND spying for us isn't going to work, we'll have to spy ourselves. ND is behind us in turn order, not in front of us.

Does anyone know if, with a spy, you can spy on specific cities during a war? I know embassy spying is not possible, but spy-spying? Otherwise, we're going to need to steal their complete plans, which will most likely be very costly.

DeepO

	22-07-2004 22:49									#432
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Come to think of it: we need a CIA built... can this be done during mobilization?

DeepO

	23-07-2004 00:13									#433
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They can at least uncover much of the Lego map by spying in the meantime.

That point about the Intel Agency is a good one. Damn - I don't suppose you can build any wonders under Mob, can you - I'll check.

	23-07-2004 00:48									#434
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I checked. In fact, you can build the CIA, as well as Battlefield Medicine, Pentagon, Miltary Academy under Mobilisation.

However, there's more - I'll post all on the Defense Thread.

	23-07-2004 01:48									#435
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Yes that note from MZ is either great news or the best act of deceit I have seen.

	16-08-2004 15:07									#436
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quote: We are 1 turn from Flight now. So I guess we would start needing the Pre-Reqs now to continue with Motorized Transport. However, we are currently short on cash which means we would need 1 turn of 100% research and another turn of partial research to get extra 1000g (plus we need some upgrades ourselves, mostly our remaining Galleons -> Transports.) GoW mobilized last turn btw. We should be able to build a sizeable force of bombers for the invasion. I still have my doubts about the time schedule, I have really not done any estimates due to lack of time but I think we'll be barely making the deadline at the best, hopefully our mobilized economy will change that. Right now we only have Infantry and Galleons/Transports up to schedule (or should I say, done), Artillery is behind and Destroyers are looking good. Anyway, I'll try working on a more thorough estimate before I get worried. I would love to chat one of these days, tell me if and when you guys can. -MZ

so,

1) We can start sending the pre-reqs for MT.
2) They haven't got the balance of the cash yet.
3) They'd like to delay the invasion slightly.
4) Chat suggested.

So it looks like we'll have to finish of Radio at a sustainable rate and wait for the cash to upgrade.

As we've been considering delaying D-Day ourselves, maybe we should agree to a slight delay. We need them to have a respectable force.

Krill, or anyone - are you around for chat? If not I'll have to try myself though I'm busy with gigs, rehearsals and work this week.

	16-08-2004 16:32									#437
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I'd like to join for chat too... today is going to be a problem, though, but perhaps tomorrow or so. It's busy as hell at work too, but normally I can keep the late evening / night free.

As to delay: we need them to be there, and without money to upgrade, we will need a few more turns if we want to bring MI instead of inf. I personally think getting MI will be worth a couple of turns delay, even if that willl make it nearly sure that Lego has tanks as well. Main point is we need GoW to land at the same turn as us, though. So I think a delay is inevitable.

DeepO

	19-08-2004 13:19									#438
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus I'll have to wait for MZ to send me the full transcript (I was on the Java window) but basically .. 1. They have Flight. I said we wanted to hold off that for a bit.

Actually, we want to wait for 2 turns at most. economicaly, I'd prefer it earlier, as Elipolis is perfectly fitted to build an airport, and fighters.

quote: 2. They have Amphib in about 4 turns.

Good

quote: 3. He's going to send me a spreadsheet to calculate enemy strength on on the turn we passed Lego. I've have the numbers of how many units and how many fortified, and we'll see what the spreadsheet offers.

Only problem with this is that he'll also know perfectly what our strength is.

Oh, and Trip: GoW will get MT in 2 turns. They'll get electronics this one, and MT the one after that. They are the ones who asked for the delay, we wanted to give it to them earlier...

DeepO

	19-08-2004 22:59									#439
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Yes that was my concern when I read this yesterday. We will be giving them a lot of data and how can we know if what they tell is accurate?

I am not sure what we can do about it, other than under state our unit disposition. I suspect that it would have to be vry close to the truth in order to pass muster.

We may not have any choice but to be forthright.

	20-08-2004 04:53									#440
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I wouldn't worry about GoW knowing our troop numbers.

If they are going to use this info against us, we've already lost. GoW (and their allies) knowing how many units we have isn't going to make any difference. If they are with us, through the Lego invasion, the unit info they get from us will be outdated by the time the invasion is concluded.

	20-08-2004 05:43									#441
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Thats' a great point Aeson. While we dont' have to reveal everything about our civ, in the end if we are going to be backstabbed, the information isn't all that useful. In the face of a 3x1, we lose, regardless of their information, which is outdated quickly.

and we lose in one turn. its a sad thought, but the hand we were dealt isn't defensible. I can see a move where GoW blitzes RP and then hands one of the cities to lego to offload their entire army.

	20-08-2004 13:43									#442
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I agree it's not a big issue... However they can know perfectly what our strength is at time of invasion: in one of the PMs, CH told them that every turn delay means an extra 8 tanks to the party for us.

But if they hadn't figured that out already... they can read the numbers too (their production power in mobilization is 9 or 10 tanks per turn, higher if they are very efficient)

BTW: CH: any chance to see that log? I'm interested in what MZ had to say

DeepO

	22-08-2004 19:05									#443
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I didn't have a log as I was on the java window. I haven't rcvd the spreadsheet yet, I'll ask again for it. When is the best time for us to recieve flight, DeepO?

	29-10-2004 21:22									#444
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Details of GoW's war opening posted on the log here .

I sent Lego's forces for the last turn - and GoW appear not to have an Intel Agency yet.

How much info on us do we want to give in reply? If we distrust them and hold our cards too close they will see this and may distrust us in return. I've said before that I think we have to bet the ranch on this assault and as DeepO said, GoW have no motive for a BS this early - so I'd favour a fairly open, rather than closed posture towards GoW and our plans & deployments.

	29-10-2004 21:54									#445
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I agree... but let's not give them too detailed info either, you never know.

I think we can give them the screenshot of our attack, the one with all ships after the attack, but with no movement left. However, we need to crop it to keep some info from them: they don't need to know our exact gold situation.

CH, you could send them the updated numbers (careful, the Lego ones were before attacking, so mention this to MZ), as well as one piece of advice: build more marines! Those bombers he doesn't have to build know, are better put into more M and a transport to get them there. You can drop the number of 56 M to them, to get an idea.

Precise troop information: I'm a bit hesitant about that. If they know what's on our transports, they also know what we've got at home. But in the spirit of openess, I think we can't keep it from them. But let's this discuss a bit, before sending anything to them.

DeepO

	30-10-2004 16:41									#446
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Proposed report to GoW. Comments please! CH, maybe better to wait for approval of the team before sending it. I think it's okay, but you never know what I made have missed

quote: Situation scetch before movement: Battle Report: (DD1 is the first, but it was moved before the screenshot was made) DD1 attacks Ir Shark . DD 4/4. DD2 attacks Ir Southfork. DD 1/4. DD3 attacks DD Achilles. DD 2/4. Sub1 attacks DD Poseidon . Sub 2/4. DD4 attacks DD Argonout. DD 2/4. Sub2 attacks Sub U-Q2. Sub 1/4. DD5 attacks DD Athena. DD 2/4. DD6 attacks Ir Dagger. DD 2/4. DD7 attacks Ir Sledgehammer. DD 3/4. DD8 attacks Ir Maul. DD destroyed. Ir Maul 3/4. DD9 attacks Ir Maul(3/4). DD promotes to elite 4/5. DD10 attacks Ir Iron. DD 3/4. Total: 12 attacks, 11 won, 1 lost, 1 promotion. We lost 1 DD. Lego lost 6 Ir, 1 Sub, 4 DD. plan We basically have 3 fleet. - Northern fleet leaves from Hurricane, and sails to the fork on Forkmouth, Sandonorico and Quanto Mechanico. Needs to sail close to Lego stack of BB. - Southern fleet leaves from Sufa, sails to fork on Quanto Mechanico and Abilene. - Deep Southern fleet is an empty fleet, and sails to fork on Abilene and Tiperrary. Only consists of 3 TR and a few defenders, but will be within chaining range of the S fleet. It could bring 24 M to Lego's shore, so they can't leave Tiperrary undefended. We will try to chain extra troops to the transports during the next few turns. As we will not know which chains will succeed (there are Lego subs around), precise troop composition is uncertain. In total, our invasion force exists of > 56 M > 50 T > 20 I 9 S 3 E no artillery a minimum of bombers Further, RP is going to join us. However, we were late in planning it, and as a result, they will be a few turns behind us, they won't be present on D-day. We will provide Lego troop numbers for as long as possible, but they might expose our spy. As far as we can see, Lego is the only other civ with a CIA built.

DeepO

	30-10-2004 18:09									#447
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IMHO it'd be best to crop the whole bottom bit of the image rather than cover the part that shows our gold and income with a black rectangle.
That way it's less of an insult, and probably less obvious that we don't really trust them.

	30-10-2004 20:42									#448
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Same with the left side. I don't think we want to be blacking out anything to show mistrust.

I'd rather send a screen of the end of this turn anyways.

	30-10-2004 20:53									#449
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Well, I can live with that. I'll redo them in a moment.

We can send them both screenshots, of this turn and last. But I would rather do it before we move our transports into position.

OTOH, it doesn't really matter if Lego could know our position or not... but if at all possible, why risk giving the information to them?

DeepO

	30-10-2004 21:19									#450
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I think we should be as open as possible with information and GoW right now. Per the usual argument, if GoW is on Lego's side it won't matter if they know where our fleet is or not. We'll lose.

Hiding information from GoW (at this time) might make them feel something is not right. That could lead to them hesitating, backing out, or even changing their alliance at worst.