17-07-2003 10:09									#181
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zeit, please send the NAP as ratified by GS.

quote: This contract is a declaration of a Non Aggression Pact between Gathering Storm and Glory of War. Neither team will engage in hostile activity against the other team for the duration of the contract. The contract becomes effective on turn 126, 50 BC and will remain in effect for a duration of 30 turns, cancelling after turn 156, 400 AD. The contract is considered Top Secret and will be treated as such by both teams and by their members. No memeber of either team is allowed to discuss the existence, or details, of the contract with anyone who is not a member of either Gathering Storm or Glory of War. Signed: Glory of War Team Ratified: Gathering Storm

	17-07-2003 15:58									#182
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I tried with all myy might to get a steady connection yesterday, but alas...

I hate it when Poly does that.

Sending now.

	17-07-2003 19:54									#183
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Regarding GoW's stance on the MPP thing - they are creating a pretty fine line (or a non-existent one). The first MPP doesn't include any "don't attack each other" clause - RP assumes it is implicit. Someone wises up to this loophole, so they change the wording of the second one to make it explicit. GoW claims that this means they didn't intend a NAP in the first one. I don't find that remotely plausible personally. GoW know they are violating the intent of the agreement, and doing it because it is what they think is best in their current situation - and I happen to agree with them (about it being best, not about it being 'moral', whatever that means in this game). Hadr to feel too much sympathy for RP though...

	17-07-2003 20:00									#184
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I don't GoW the goes against the 'spirit' of the agreement- after all, this is a anti-ND thing, if GoW decides to join hands with ND, there's no more of the 'spirit', is there?

RP should know better not to expect generosity or expressions of friendship from anyone, especially not with the atmosphere of between them and GoW lately.

	17-07-2003 21:34									#185
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The point is, I think, that the agreement is nowhere near a full MPP - NAP thing, not even in spirit. However, the chats leading to this agreement, and the chats afterwards are most likely in the spirit of non-aggression... which is why RP is pissed. We have to watch out not to do the same thing with RP ourselves: we can say we're listening, but can't even remotely promise to help them out.

DeepO

	22-07-2003 07:40									#186
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Chatting with GoW. They want to know if a renewal of the alliance is possible. I am being evasive. I am blaming ND's zenophobia for our actions.

Have planted seed that RP, GoW, and perhaps ND could do some sailing.

	22-07-2003 08:39									#187
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Is there a chat going on right now?

And for that matter, when there is an ongoing chat that others can join or should enter our private chatroom, can someone post it? Some of us (read: me) never seem to know whats going on otherwise.

	22-07-2003 08:43									#188
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As far as I know, there's a GoW chat wrapping up as I type...

	22-07-2003 08:45									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Octavian X As far as I know, there's a GoW chat wrapping up as I type...

Ah, cool. too late, once again

	22-07-2003 08:59									#190
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Log posted. The only 'fact' I revealed, is that we are very wary of ND. At least that is all I hope to have revealed. If anyone spots something else, please let me know.

That was exhausting. I am not sure that they did not email each other to run a relay on me. One, then the next, then the next. Like being in a room with the bright light and the rubber hoses, almost.

I fear that hopes for deflecting GoW and ND from RP destruction are slim to none, and Slim is on a chicken, half way out of town. That suits me fine. Dog piling Lego would be no more appetising to me than doing the same to RP. We have a game. there are challenges to overcome. Victory can be sweet.

	22-07-2003 09:21									#191
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I think you did very well NYE.

	22-07-2003 09:28									#192
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That was a great chat

It was kind of sad how MZ kept saying "we did what we had to do" Kind of like he regrets it (probably friends with RPs and had to go along with the rest of his group)

It was ridiculous how they kept harping on the old deal. Sigh, like we can go back to that at this point.

What was that about Vox gifting their city to GoW? If that city's not in our hands this turn, its a violation of the treaty right, we should get it accepted now. I say we just take it.

	22-07-2003 09:38									#193
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I'm sure it was just a hypothetical analogy.

	22-07-2003 09:39									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I'm sure it was just a hypothetical analogy.

Yeah, and its about the only wrinkle they could throw at us this turn. Laughable if vox would do it.

	22-07-2003 11:08									#195
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It's also a somewhat flawed analogy. We did a lot of fighting to get the advantage that forced Vox to cede those cities to us. What blood has GoW shed to pay for a claim on RP's cities?

	22-07-2003 11:28									#196
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A comment on the chat: For the love of Christ, it's xenophobia! No Z! The spelling is likely some inside PTWDG I missed (then again, there are several thousand of hose), but really...

Something tells me GoW was bluffing somewhat. I wouldn't be suprised at all if this was a front to hid their own ND ambitions.

	22-07-2003 11:39									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Octavian X A comment on the chat: For the love of Christ, it's xenophobia! No Z! The spelling is likely some inside PTWDG I missed (then again, there are several thousand of hose), but really... Something tells me GoW was bluffing somewhat. I wouldn't be suprised at all if this was a front to hid their own ND ambitions.

the zenophobia joke refers to Master Zen of GoW. Either that or they really don't know how to spell.

	22-07-2003 11:44									#198
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X, not Z. I knew that. I wish I could claim inside joke, but I won't. I cop to being a crappy typist with spotty spelling.

	22-07-2003 17:56									#199
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Ok, so GoW will respect the NAP (for now). That allows us to rush troops west to help stop ND.

If necessary, we may have to declare war on ND in a few turns. It may be interesting to see GoW's reaction to that.

-Arrian

	22-07-2003 17:56									#200
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good chat... you evaded most things. 2 things that might have been lost in the barrage was that we do not tolerate cultural border crossings (you mentioned it, but I'm not sure GoW knows that also includes temp border crosses), and that there really was no option that we did not invade RP if ND and GoW were carving it up.

BTW, GoW thinks it can control ND foreign policy, yet has no deal other then the contract with them? Yeah, right. That will work

As to the territory agreement: it was simply a tile-for-tile, lux-for-lux division. Meaning ND got the South, GoW got the North, and they meet somewhere near where the ND capital is now. It's obvious we can't let that happen, and they know, but think we won't bother, or would simply let them walk all over us.

It's also obvious they fear us a great deal, and rightfully so. They are half willing to let us attack ND, and take them out, the only problem for them would be that that would mean that they are next, and they know that that would be a very poor position. When attacking RP they can strike a deal that their territory gets spread out over what ND has already, if we join RP, they won't even get ND territory, even if they would directly attack them.

Because they know we won't breach the NAP, they won't attack us either unless they have an obvious huge opportunity to harm us. Bilbao would certainly not qualify as that, perhaps a massive invasion of Stormia would (in which case they have to land in our South). If we continue to take RP gifts, they might consider it, but not very fast. If we start taking ND cities, they might join in, and fight with desperation.

The only problem I see is that if ND does not take Santiago, we will have to attack them, giving them a negative WW, and us a pos one. I would prefer it the other way around

DeepO

	23-07-2003 11:45									#201
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Chatted with MZ.

The good news. They dither. Toledo is saved. Our foot can beat their riders to Toledo if they move as indicated. I think.

The bad news? I'm not sure. They may DoW if we say no. We must say no. Them getting into that mountain gets them beyond the Bilbao-Toledo block. RP will have to leave NM with us for the second wave to protect.

If we say no, and they proceed, then the NAP is void. That is one bright light. If they proceed, we will have to tie up forces we need to aid RP with. That is not so good a light.

	23-07-2003 11:47									#202
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Why don't we say yes, but have toledo gifted to us this turn. RP needs the units, with leon having fallen, they can strike pamplona next turn. So we buy some time on both sides of the map. Agree to their demands, but when the open the next turn, their quest will be stymied again.

	23-07-2003 11:53									#203
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sleepy. they will move as indicated waiting for our answer, which i can asure you will come after they have sent the turn.

When we say no, they will choose between violating the NAP, or moving SW through the jungle to get to RP.

If we say yes, the NAP is not violated, and they will have flanked the Bilbao-Toledo block. We will have to keep and defend NM till that stack of riders is eliminated, and we shall have to violate the NAP to eliminate that stack.

Now, GoW could not be doing a better job of doing no damage if they tried. What if they are waiting for something? Like ND to get stuck in deep in RP territory, and GS knights in position to do serious harm to their ansar stack?

Or, they are relaying real communications to ND, and saying 'look, we tried. GS said no.' That is another possibility.

We say no. That much is obvious.

	23-07-2003 11:57									#204
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Ah, I see, I was confused about the turn sequence. 10bc, 10ad, 30ad. blah. I see your point. No is the way to go.

	23-07-2003 18:42									#205
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We have to deny the request. It may result in war. So be it.

-Arrian

	23-07-2003 19:04									#206
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Back from the public forum, Unortho is speculating that RP gave us the cities in return for techs and gold (since RP has suddenly acquired engineering off us) to give us a desired toe-hold on Bob without being involved in the war. He thinks we are benig manipulated because GoW and ND are being forced into attacking us since we are acting like their enemy and helping RP, thus getting us involved militarily in the war as well.

What he doesn't seem to know (or speculate on publically) is that we are already committed militarily to helping RP regardless of what ND and GoW do about those cities, and that the engineering was nothing to do with the cities.

Good to have some idea what your opponents are thinking, so yuo can encourage them to be misguided.

	23-07-2003 19:28									#207
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actually, I don't believe this is what UnO really thinks. It is more a provocation towards us, to try to get us explain it. I think he knows all to well that we would not accept cities that are almost certainly to be attacked, if we didn't anticipated to also go on some conquering of our own.

One big advantage (as long as GS keeps his mouth shut) is that we can use this argument towards Lego... at least for the time being. The longer we can keep Lego as friends, the better.

DeepO

	23-07-2003 23:14									#208
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Message received from UnO. Last paragraph, are they looking for the exits?

	23-07-2003 23:23									#209
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Yes it looks like they are.

I'm not sure how far we can trust them on the "holding to the NAP" thing, but it wouldn't hurt to sound them out on a few things.

Do we think that a 50-50 split of the continent (with GoW getting the north) is the best possible outcome of this situation for us? If that is an achievable goal we should work towards it IMHO.

	23-07-2003 23:28									#210
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I sorta get the impression they are looking for an anti-ND alliance (after RP falls) with us, in exchange for GS backing out of the protect RP business.

It would certainly be optimal for them if they could work something of that nature out. They get half of Bob fighting RP, then half of the rest of Bob fighting ND... both wars being 2v1 in their favor. I would expect they are also asking Lego about an anti-GS alliance timed for when our NAP runs out.