19-05-2003 14:15									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I have a feeling that Caligastia and Ravagon will still be quite happy at a final line up of Kiwi v Kiwi?

I for one won't be shedding too many tears at the prospect.
No news yet on the condition of Steve Devine though.

In other news it seems that the Brits have committed to sending their star squad on the NZ tour and the second-stringers to Canada.
Tickets for the June 14th Wellington test sold out in < 1 hour after going on sale.

	19-05-2003 15:56									#122
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The NZ/Aus squad has not been finalised yet.

	19-05-2003 18:02									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I know what you mean. They are the single best reason for PR to my mind – though I’m not a great fan of a system that might give the monster raving loony party several seats.

God Bless Screaming Lord Sutch and may he Rest In Peace.

quote: The ‘swinging voter’ is joe and joeline average – the idea being they will vote for the party that puts a few more pounds in their pockets every month. They therefore hold the entire UK political system to ransom as everything is geared around keeping them sweet. Hence progressive taxation is dead here – because J and J are IMO too daft to understand that high indirect taxation hits them more than it does high earners – and also negates the lower direct taxes. As I say this is simply my view if the system I have to live in – others can disagree.

No argument from this end.

quote: This one I’m framing. Marshall was shocking in the S12 game I saw him helm last month – pedantic but on the wrong issues. It’s a nice bit of proof that Nh and SH have different perspectives.

I've already expressed my opinion on him - incredibly erratic.

quote: And again the difference. The fact teams frequently get away with an infringement is not an argument for the ref ignoring it! More valid is your point about consistency – it should always be pinged or always let go – not mix and match. And Kaplan is as poor as Marshall.

No, Marshall is worse than Kaplan. Who argued that the ref should ignore it because teams get away with it? I didn't. My only point was the inconsistency. It was probably a rare ruling because the tackled player hit the ground but the tackler didn't. Normally, both hit the ground and the tackler is required to get back to his feet before competing for the ball. That, in itself, just about physically requires the tackled player to be released.

quote: I have a feeling that Caligastia and Ravagon will still be quite happy at a final line up of Kiwi v Kiwi?

So they should be. The Crusaders and the Blues were the two most consistent teams in the comp. It will be a fascinating final between two quite different styles. The question is whether the Crusaders' methodical, controlling style will nullify the Blues' potential brilliance. It didn't earlier in the season when the Blues smashed the Crusaders. OTOH, the Crusaders have lifted their game recently.

quote: it’s not like flankers in my day I can tell you.

This would be when? Shortly after Mr Ellis picked up the pill and ran with it?

	19-05-2003 18:04									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Havak The NZ/Aus squad has not been finalised yet.

The first train-on Wallaby squad is announced next Monday.

	19-05-2003 19:46									#125
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quote: I've already expressed my opinion on him - incredibly erratic.

You surely did. And that made me even keener to frame Caligastia’s description of normally liking him.

quote: Who argued that the ref should ignore it because teams get away with it? I didn't

It could be read as you implying it – though perhaps I inferred it incorrectly. It’s not unknown.

quote: That, in itself, just about physically requires the tackled player to be released.

Pretty much should do so yes. The mind boggles at the exceptions?

quote: It didn't earlier in the season when the Blues smashed the Crusaders. OTOH, the Crusaders have lifted their game recently.

I’m backing Blues as they were my early S12 faves (I like following success – Go WASPS!!).

quote: This would be when? Shortly after Mr Ellis picked up the pill and ran with it?

I’m flattered that you feel I could still hack it on the field with our 21 year old scrum half Harry Ellis.
In terms of squads England have named the North American tour squad and the squad to face the barbarians in a fortnight but the SH tour has not been named. Woodward is being cautious and keeping the country guessing.

	19-05-2003 19:57									#126
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The referee of the H-Cup final will be mister Chris White, though I remember some of his performances as having been appalling I can't remember recent games held by him.

	19-05-2003 19:57									#127
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quote: Originally posted by NeoStar No way, I've never heard of him doing this before. Wow...

I seem to remember him going on a few drunken nights that ended in tears a few years ago...

	19-05-2003 20:05									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Havak This one I’m framing. Marshall was shocking in the S12 game I saw him helm last month – pedantic but on the wrong issues. It’s a nice bit of proof that Nh and SH have different perspectives.

I would pull out the old "our games are more entertaining" line, but I saw some pretty impressive highlights from the Heineken Cup on Sky Sports a while ago. But then again, it was just the highlights...

quote: And again the difference. The fact teams frequently get away with an infringement is not an argument for the ref ignoring it! More valid is your point about consistency – it should always be pinged or always let go – not mix and match. And Kaplan is as poor as Marshall.

I would say the infringement the SH teams get away with the most is probably offside. Aside for that I don't think we get away with too much.

quote: I have a feeling that Caligastia and Ravagon will still be quite happy at a final line up of Kiwi v Kiwi?

All-NZ Semifinals would have been nice, but I can live with this.

	19-05-2003 20:09									#129
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quote: Originally posted by finbar It was probably a rare ruling because the tackled player hit the ground but the tackler didn't. Normally, both hit the ground and the tackler is required to get back to his feet before competing for the ball. That, in itself, just about physically requires the tackled player to be released.

Bah, it's a law they should change don't you think? I thought Sam did extremely well. He has really impressed me this season.

	19-05-2003 20:11									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You surely did. And that made me even keener to frame Caligastia’s description of normally liking him.

Perhaps I've only seen him at his best games. Considering he's Australian, Finbar has probably seen a lot more of him than me.

	19-05-2003 20:29									#131
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quote: The referee of the H-Cup final will be mister Chris White, though I remember some of his performances as having been appalling I can't remember recent games held by him.

On balance one of the very best refs in the world Tamerlin. Doesn’t take any nonsense from scrums though so I can see you not being happy with him.

Heh Caligastia can you post from work again?

quote: But then again, it was just the highlights...

I get the same problem with S12 – I’m too idle to watch them live in the early hours so I watch the highlights the next day. Perhaps it makes teams look good.

Having said that H Cup rugby is of a terrific standard past the pool stages. Except for the French teams perhaps.

Just joking Tamerlin!

quote: Aside for that I don't think we get away with too much.

Killing ball. You still lead the world in that – but we are learning.

quote: All-NZ Semifinals would have been nice, but I can live with this.

quote: Considering he's Australian, Finbar has probably seen a lot more of him than me.

I can remember specifically registering him helming games twice – and he had two shockers. It might be unfair. I shall keep my eye on him.

Leicester signed the England prop Julian White today. We do seem quite serious in strengthening the squad.

	19-05-2003 20:42									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Heh Caligastia can you post from work again?

Nah, called off sick today. I felt terrible this morning, but after calling in to say I couldn't make it I felt a lot better. Funny that.

quote: Killing ball. You still lead the world in that – but we are learning.

Yeah, well I have seen teams get pinged for that quite a lot lately.

	20-05-2003 04:21									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It could be read as you implying it – though perhaps I inferred it incorrectly. It’s not unknown.

I just went back and re-read my post. I (i) explained the relevant law; (ii) pointed out what happened and how it contravened the law; (iii) pointed out that refs - including Kaplan - rarely, if ever, penalise for it; and (iv) blamed ref inconsistency. An incorrect inference was drawn? I think so.

quote: I’m flattered that you feel I could still hack it on the field with our 21 year old scrum half Harry Ellis.

Now that is desperate.

	20-05-2003 04:23									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin The referee of the H-Cup final will be mister Chris White, though I remember some of his performances as having been appalling I can't remember recent games held by him.

A Havak favourite until recent times. Something to do with Mr White having ventured south of the equator and lost his rugby senses as a result.

	20-05-2003 04:36									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Bah, it's a law they should change don't you think?

Except that the law - that a tackler must release a tackled player - is one of the fundamentals. Without it, every breakdown would turn into a static wrestling match. As I pointed out, Tuolopo's was a slightly unusual case because the tackled player was on the ground and Tuolopo hadn't left his feet. He only had to release the tackled player for a split second - hands off, then compete for the ball. The tackled player was well and truly isolated, and Tuolopo would have either stolen the ball or won a penalty for the tackled player not releasing.

	20-05-2003 04:43									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Killing ball. You still lead the world in that – but we are learning.

That's been one of the big crackdowns this season with the refs pinging tacklers for not releasing the tackled player. I think you observed the same thing up there too. It's been fairly successful here in the uncomplicated breakdown situations. The problem remains with the stacks-on-the-mill breakdowns where a ref with x-ray vision would struggle to see what's going on underneath.

	20-05-2003 05:10									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Havak On balance one of the very best refs in the world Tamerlin. Doesn’t take any nonsense from scrums though so I can see you not being happy with him.

I am all the more wary now...

quote: I get the same problem with S12 – I’m too idle to watch them live in the early hours so I watch the highlights the next day. Perhaps it makes teams look good.

I will interest myself again in the S12 competition when they play by the rules of a game called Rugby...

quote: Having said that H Cup rugby is of a terrific standard past the pool stages. Except for the French teams perhaps.

quote: Killing ball. You still lead the world in that – but we are learning.

You could add:
- refusing to push and fight for the ball in a scrum
- entering from the side of a maul without being penalized...
- changing the rules from game to game by the whims of the referee...

Just some examples...

quote: Leicester signed the England prop Julian White today. We do seem quite serious in strengthening the squad.

Good to see you are becoming more confident for the next season...

Tamerlin is biting its lip to refrain posting some naughty commentaries that would seriously endanger the cordial relationships between Leicester and Toulouse in this thread...






No way Finbar, I won't write them...

	20-05-2003 16:00									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Tamerlin is biting its lip to refrain posting some naughty commentaries that would seriously endanger the cordial relationships between Leicester and Toulouse in this thread... No way Finbar, I won't write them...

Coward!

	20-05-2003 16:06									#139
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Yes...

	20-05-2003 16:10									#140
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BTW, I'll be right to play again next week. This week is more of the same old thing!

	20-05-2003 16:19									#141
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OK, this week is not very appropriate for playing as far as I am concerned...

	20-05-2003 18:09									#142
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I'm running an installation at one of our Satellite sites today gents - but I'll catch up tomorrow hopefully.

Strangely we don't seem to have signed anyone yet today.

Edit: No sooner said than proved wrong - Daryl Gibson is at the ground signing as I write apparently.



At last a real quality centre.

	21-05-2003 03:40									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I'm running an installation at one of our Satellite sites today gents -

Posting from outer space? Up there looking for an experienced centre?

quote: Strangely we don't seem to have signed anyone yet today. Edit: No sooner said than proved wrong - Daryl Gibson is at the ground signing as I write apparently. At last a real quality centre.

You found Daryl Gibson in outer space? Good grief. Oh well.

So can we now dub the Tigers the "Foreign Legion"?

	21-05-2003 12:32									#144
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Nope. Pez isn't foreign as he is Italian and therefore and EC citizen - that counts as domestic for Rugby quotas.

Broadfoot and White are English. Morris Welsh.

Only Gibson counts as foreign.

Now to read what I missed yesterday...

	21-05-2003 13:10									#145
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quote: I felt terrible this morning, but after calling in to say I couldn't make it I felt a lot better. Funny that.

It’s a feeling I’m sure we all empathise with – well those of us not self employed anyway.

quote: Yeah, well I have seen teams get pinged for that quite a lot lately.

There are problems with how it’s being enforced down there and here. We need to get back to a point where killing ball gets you mobbed without the ref considering the mobbing the more serious offence. You know – like Rugby rather than s*****.

quote: An incorrect inference was drawn? I think so.

I find it hard to believe.

quote: Something to do with Mr White having ventured south of the equator and lost his rugby senses as a result.

He was tainted by the event. The first few club games on his return were shocking. He seems to have found a balance though and Tamerlin should still be grateful it’s not Steve ‘put the spotlight on me’ Lander.

quote: I think you observed the same thing up there too

Indeed so.

quote: I will interest myself again in the S12 competition when they play by the rules of a game called Rugby...

They won’t bite here.

To be fair what I’ve seen of S12 this season the standard has been good. One has to put aside the problems they have with the laws and look at the skills – and the pace of the games. Both have been quite impressive from most teams.

If they ever did take the competition phases of the game a little more seriously it really could be great rugby to watch.

quote: Just some examples...

You forgot the classic of ‘not getting back to your feet quickly’ allowing you to saunter back onside just in time to get in the way of opposition ball.
(copyright ABs 1980s onwards? A frequently infringed copyright these days).

quote: Good to see you are becoming more confident for the next season...

Less confidence than optimism really.

And don’t listen to Finbar – it took courage not to jump on the Tiger-bashing bandwagon.

quote: Posting from outer space? Up there looking for an experienced centre?

We have buildings across the City. And there’s only one me. Thank goodness?

In fact Gibson was being courted by several clubs – chiefly Bath – but chose Tigers.

Lets see what he said:

"Tigers are a team packed with established internationals, and also a lot of young talent coming through, which should hold the club in good stead in future years. They have always been a team who have drawn comparisons with my home team, Canterbury, with the amount of success they have just about every season. The thought of playing in the same team as stars of the international scene like Martin Johnson and Neil Back gives me a real buzz.”
What a smart chap.

	21-05-2003 14:01									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Nope. Pez isn't foreign as he is Italian and therefore and EC citizen - that counts as domestic for Rugby quotas.

How Irish is that? Just to toss another nationality into the equation. Damn EC and its idiotic homogenisation!

quote: Only Gibson counts as foreign.

You mean another foreigner.

quote: Now to read what I missed yesterday...

Good grief. So little to do? And life is so short.

	21-05-2003 14:08									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It’s a feeling I’m sure we all empathise with – well those of us not self employed anyway.

Yes, I often ring myself to tell me I'm ill and can't work. Trouble is, the phone's always engaged.

quote: There are problems with how it’s being enforced down there and here. We need to get back to a point where killing ball gets you mobbed without the ref considering the mobbing the more serious offence. You know – like Rugby rather than s*****.

There's more rucking being allowed here this season. Some quite spectacular stuff too. It's rucking off the ball that's still pinged.

quote: To be fair what I’ve seen of S12 this season the standard has been good. One has to put aside the problems they have with the laws and look at the skills – and the pace of the games. Both have been quite impressive from most teams. If they ever did take the competition phases of the game a little more seriously it really could be great rugby to watch.

As someone said here very recently, S12 is about scoring tries, Tests are about winning. Whole different kettle of pigskin. That's why I wonder how much Carlos Spencer would be allowed to dominate in a Test match.

quote: You forgot the classic of ‘not getting back to your feet quickly’ allowing you to saunter back onside just in time to get in the way of opposition ball. (copyright ABs 1980s onwards? A frequently infringed copyright these days).

Speaking of which - I saw Sean on the sidelines last weekend. Now Auckland manager. Looks fit and well. Must have been all that sauntering, never over-extending himself.

quote: And don’t listen to Finbar – it took courage not to jump on the Tiger-bashing bandwagon.

Put another way - there was no more room.

quote: "Tigers are a team packed with established internationals, and also a lot of young talent coming through, which should hold the club in good stead in future years. They have always been a team who have drawn comparisons with my home team, Canterbury, with the amount of success they have just about every season. The thought of playing in the same team as stars of the international scene like Martin Johnson and Neil Back gives me a real buzz.” What a smart chap.

And the Tigers PR man promptly put down his knib and even more promptly put up his hand for a raise, no doubt.

	21-05-2003 15:01									#148
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quote: How Irish is that?

God bless the EC – it sure makes life interesting. This is just one minor way in which they confuse the simplest of issues.

You would not believe the storm it is causing that the Franco-German axis wants to introduce a revised constitution giving Brussels control over Foreign policy and Defence.

I wonder if they are on the right planet sometimes.

quote: You mean another foreigner.

I actually meant the only foreigner in the new signings.

Out foreign contingent is very limited – a Samoan converted back from League, a Bok centre, and Aussie Stand off (long term future equals not good after the signings) and Josh of course. The squad is largely British outside that small core.

Looks like Josh will be leaving anyway – his legs give way to injury too easily these days and I suspect he’d like a quieter life for his last season or so.

quote: Good grief. So little to do? And life is so short.

Plenty to do – but in terms of interest…

quote: It's rucking off the ball that's still pinged.

And in a hectic ruck refs are getting this one wrong to my mind. A man on the wrong side should be fair game for rank stupidity – as long as they leave his head he gets what he deserves?

quote: As someone said here very recently, S12 is about scoring tries, Tests are about winning. Whole different kettle of pigskin.

Nice mixed metaphor.
That would match my observation and even tend to support the criticism often levelled at S12 (play until someone scores). I am sure Tamerlin will jump on this one.

Who are NZ hosting – us I know about but Wales and France are down there in June too. Spencer could look very good indeed against Wales (their idea of closing the opposing fly half down is to have the pack sit on him at the earliest opportunity).

quote: Must have been all that sauntering, never over-extending himself.

Great player. Canny too? I would imagin he never over exherted himself.

I see Graham Henry is back advising Auckland Rugby too – and ‘assisting’ the Blues coach. Clearly a man for SH rugby not NH.

quote: Put another way - there was no more room.

True I guess!

quote: And the Tigers PR man promptly put down his knib and even more promptly put up his hand for a raise, no doubt.

Yes but get this – the BBC web site used these quotes from the club statement as news. What do you think of such lazy journalism?

I left out the more sickly stuff anyway!

	21-05-2003 19:10									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I actually meant the only foreigner in the new signings.

An Italian, a Welsman and a Kiwi? Sounds a bit like the start to an old joke, too.

quote: And in a hectic ruck refs are getting this one wrong to my mind. A man on the wrong side should be fair game for rank stupidity – as long as they leave his head he gets what he deserves?

Fine line, I think. If he's making no attempt to get out of the way - fair enough.

quote: That would match my observation and even tend to support the criticism often levelled at S12 (play until someone scores).

It was always designed as partly a marketing exercise, but mainly an chance to provide players a higher level of competition outside the limited international opportunities of Tri Nations. It's probably the equivalent, in those exposure terms, of the Heinken Cup. But I don't think anyone in their right mind would compare it to Test rugby.

quote: I am sure Tamerlin will jump on this one.

Who? The name rings a vague bell.

quote: Who are NZ hosting

Another vague bell rings.

quote: Great player. Canny too? I would imagin he never over exherted himself.

Wonderful player. We loved to hate him. The nice thing is that he and Phil Kearns, once very bitter rivals and never friends, are now as thick as thieves. Damn hookers.

quote: I see Graham Henry is back advising Auckland Rugby too – and ‘assisting’ the Blues coach. Clearly a man for SH rugby not NH.

Mmmmm. Cal will now be wetting himself re Saturday night.

quote: lazy journalism?

Enough with the tautology already!

	22-05-2003 03:09									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You would not believe the storm it is causing that the Franco-German axis wants to introduce a revised constitution giving Brussels control over Foreign policy and Defence.

This introduction is the only chance we have to build a counterweight to the hegemony of the USA and IMO a matter of survival for the EC.

quote: I wonder if they are on the right planet sometimes.

Are you talking about the Franco-German axis or about those that have created the said tempest instead of thinking and making some creative proposals?

quote: I am sure Tamerlin will jump on this one.

I am now considering the SH is playing a different game of Rugby than the NH and is using a different set of laws. To the exception of the Tri-Nations (at least some of the times) the SH teams are interesting when they meet NH teams because of the opposing styles. The problem is that you can't play a game when the laws are not the same for everybody because the said game is no more fair.