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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:27
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An Italian, a Welsman and a Kiwi? Sounds a bit like the start to an old joke, too. |
Hmm if I add a lock jaw to the equation and throw in a lippy anti-antipodean I’m sure I could come up with a credible joke in time… 
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Fine line, I think. If he's making no attempt to get out of the way - fair enough. |
The trouble is just throwing a palm upwards at the moment seems to taken as trying to get out of the way. It has affected the game quite badly this season. Clearly I’m happy to admit I’m particularly unhappy because it neuters our forward superiority slightly – but it is a change I dislike in general terms. When I took the field I knew that if I stayed the wrong side I was going to suffer for it – it focuses the mind wonderfully on getting away from there.
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It's probably the equivalent, in those exposure terms, of the Heinken Cup |
I would have to say I think it’s general standard is slightly higher. Reason being the H Cup has a national quota so two Scots sides will get in despite being diabolical standard. Similarly three Italian sides, four Welsh and three out of four Irish Provinces get in. It’s only when it hits the elimination phases that it becomes a top quality tournament.
Strange breed. Suicidal position. Best left to their pints at the bar.
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Mmmmm. Cal will now be wetting himself re Saturday night. |
Well even I am getting drawn into the excitement – nothing to do with Graham Henry though.
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Enough with the tautology already! |
What and jeopardise my Masters in Tautological theory?
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This introduction is the only chance we have to build a counterweight to the hegemony of the USA and IMO a matter of survival for the EC. |
No – the only chance of that is to bring the UK into an inclusive process of Economic Union rather than this bizarre rush to create an exclusive (no more veto – except for Germany and France apparently) federal state.
It doesn’t matter what the EC does if it cannot bring the UK with it – whatever way it is spun the EC without the UK is a toothless tiger.
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Are you talking about the Franco-German axis or about those that have created the said tempest instead of thinking and making some creative proposals? |
The history of Europe is not really about making great ideas – in fact it consists mainly of stopping really bad ones from either of Germany or France. We are simply fulfilling our destined role. 
But seriously Tamerlin – Defence and Foreign policy cannot be brought under central control. Recent events have shown that the UK does not view Defence the same way you do, and we need to be free to disagree like that.
Also of course we are already in NATO – and an EC Defence Force cannot be allowed to alter those commitments at all.
The current proposals are, like so much that comes out the EC, vague and ill defined in terms of scope and timescale. Lets see more details please.
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The problem is that you can't play a game when the laws are not the same for everybody because the said game is no more fair. |
Ah now we are on safer ground with each other. Have you noticed that SH coaches whine endlessly about NH refs but that NH coaches now keep a respectful silence about SH refs? They didn’t always of course but recently we have taken the moral high ground.
Pity Finbar – his national coach is the only one who physically visits the IRB and whines about the laws that don’t suit his team at that particular moment. Eddie would have laws changed on a whim.
Last edited by Havak on 22-05-2003 at 13:04
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Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:27
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Originally posted by finbar
And as for all the EU stuff - bring back the individual currencies! There was nothing I used to love more than doing all the different calculations! |
Sorry, I can't do anything about that but now you can do all the calculations between the € and the different great moneys of the world like the Kopeck, the Dinar or the Australian Dollar...
Havak, from a continental viewpoint it looks as if the UK were doing their best to stay outside of the EC as much as they can without really working to enter the EC as a full member. 
Whether we want it or not the members of the EC are no more big powers but medium powers at best (this is hopefully still the case for the UK, Germany and French)... But our respective armies are tiny forces equipped with pointy sticks and are not really adapted to the modern battlefield. Of course we all have elite units (like those that have been deployed in the Gulf) and our respective governments are all showing them to us as if our whole army was modern and ready for the challenges of the 21th Century... but we are not.
The European war industry is slowly disappearing because the cost of planes, ships, armored vehicles and equipment is increasingly high and because the isolated national governments don't have the financial means to face such expenses. Moreover, you know that the cost is much higher when you buy 10 tanks than the cost when you order 100 or 1000 units.
So our military industry is fading away, well we will buy our equipment elsewhere, in the USA for example... But what would we do the day they don't want to sell us something we need or if they refuse to sell us anything...
If we don't build an integrated defence, the EC willl never be taken seriously on the international level... and this is already the case in numerous part of the world. Unfortunately, military strength is power in this world... 
Alone, each european country is a toothless cat... 
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:27
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What I meant was, it's our only equivalent in terms of a step above straight domestic club footy before we get to, say, Tri-Nations. |
And that’s a fair point – what I’m not clear on is how that differs from here?
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It has to be the most exposed possie on the field. |
The only thing with which you can catch the ground, or opposing players limbs, is your face. Yes it take a certain breed all right.
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Crikey, I'd've thought you were Dr Havak by now. |
Way past the trivial stuff…
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And as for all the EU stuff - bring back the individual currencies! There was nothing I used to love more than doing all the different calculations! |
Putting the Economic arguments aside I agree – currency gave added character to a place. Having said that when I was in Southern France last year and popping over the border to Spain the Euro made that a real breeze.
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God bless the Little Aussie Battler! |
Almost agree. God Bless the little Aussie B****** more like.
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Havak, from a continental viewpoint it looks as if the UK were doing their best to stay outside of the EC as much as they can without really working to enter the EC as a full member. |
I can see how it appears that way – but look at it like this:
We won’t engage because we don’t trust the motives of the other nations and they won’t explain them to us. The EC tells us to engage and trust and then it will explain (if it feels like it). Never going to happen.
And basically the EC message to us seems to be ‘pay up, shut up, don’t expect a say in policy. Give up your veto, we know best for you.’
What I am trying to say is that the other EC members just don’t understand the British psyche at all if they think that will work.
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this is hopefully still the case for the UK, Germany and French |
We struggle hugely to project force overseas, and the army is being trimmed to the bone. Middle might be pushing it. Goes without saying we are the best equipped of the EC for projecting force however (Island nation remember – we have to project).
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But what would we do the day they don't want to sell us something we need or if they refuse to sell us anything |
Buy from Fabrique Nationale in Belgium? FNs match anything from Colt surely?
Plus forgive me for saying they are unlikely to refuse to sell things to us. Our stock is okay with them – right or wrongs of recent events aside.
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If we don't build an integrated defence, the EC will never be taken seriously on the international level... |
Um – the EC isn’t meant to be a nation state. Sneaky Brussels sods should never have been allowed to remove ‘Economic’ from the EEC
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Alone, each european country is a toothless cat... |
Oh I don’t know – we can still mount supporting actions.
Ah heck I’m not here to argue with you anyway – just wanted to give you the UK perspective (and keep in mind I’m towards the Pro side looking at the EC). Most of us buy into Economic Union and unrestricted trade but have no interest at all in Political Union to be honest.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:27
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Or have I missed something via my brain strain from writing too many scripts too quickly? Six in the last three weeks! |
Now that is productive.
No you didn’t miss anything – I got confused by you using the expression ‘only’ – and took it to mean we might have more steps twixt club and test than the H cup…
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Only their mums could love 'em! And even then with a bag over their heads. |
Lets hope so for their sake – most after all never knew their dads.
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It's the inscrutable Japanese bit of him that I like. |
I know what you mean (I think).
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The EC has a cost and it must be paid, as we say in France you can't have the butter, the money of the butter and f*** the dairywoman... |
True – but I have never understood why we have to constantly pay more per head of population than France does? Even the much touted Thatch-Witch rebates left us paying more per head than you.
(Source: The Sun - so it must be true)
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I would say that the relationships between the UK and the Franco-German axis are a kind of "mutual cordial distrust"... |
Sadly true. Instead of spending time in Brussels our delegations should actually live in each others country for an extended period – it’s the only way to gain true empathy.
To be fair Tamerlin our issues are mainly with our own Politicians. In the only referendum we have ever had on the EC (thirty years ago) political union was never mentioned – only free trade and possible economic union. You can argue therefore that they mis-represented the facts to us (it was Ted Heaths Tories so no surprise there) but never the less the UK electorate has never had a direct say in whether we should have political union or not.
Labour made it a manifesto pledge in 97, then deferred it to the second term. Now they are back tracking so rapidly it’s clear their research has told them they will get creamed in any such referendum.
Ultimately the UK people must decide.
Just a quick aside on Mr Blair btw. I’ve had my concerns about his Tory like façade and his autocratic style recently but last week he received the ultimate condemnation for a Labour Prime Minister. Lady Thatcher called him a man of ‘great standing’. I can’t think of anything worse to be said of a Labour PM by that lady – if she likes him he must be bad.
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I think so... but I was talking about armored vehicles and other high tech military equipments. |
Ah I see. Well again it doesn’t affect us at the moment because there is a cross party consensus that we should build our own MBTs and APCs. The dependency may be creeping in though as we are buying assault helicopters from them next time.
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it appears its inceptors had a long term plan to build something that is rather close to a federation or a confederation |
See above – I accept that may have been the aim of the other European nations but it was never put on the table for us to decide on. Given there are some 25 million UK voters who were not old enough for the last referendum apparently I think it is time we were asked again.
I regret I am fairly sure of the outcome – there’s really no interest here in that kind of union at all. It’s like asking Australia and NZ to form a combined state that would, for convenience, be totally run by the Aussie government.
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Which means once again that we are not self sufficient... |
In peace time that is fair enough. With full mobilisation neither country would be insignificant.
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And by the way we are not arguing... we have a friendly talk. |
My bad.
The EC is such a contentious issue here you see it almost coming to blows in the pub every weekend.
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Have you ever noticed how often rugby commentators put an ee after someone's name as a sign of affection? |
Hadn't noticed that Cal. As in Healee?
Certainly explains why it is ‘Campo’ though doesn’t it?
Hmm Backee, Moodee, Hillee, Rowntree, Jonno-ee… well some of them are used.
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Who knows with Havak? He's such a complex lad. |
So my psychiatrist says.
It’s a tough call actually – but Howlett is with the blues right? That might swing it for me. Plus the clincher – Mehrts plays for CanterBlacks and this is one English p**** who won't be supporting that gentleman anytime soon.
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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(LDiCesare pops up for the weekend out of under a nasty firewall)
I hope Toulouse will be more successful this week-end than against the CSBJ last match...
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All times are GMT. The time now is 05:27.
Apolyton Time is 00:27. |
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22-05-2003 03:12
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