12-05-2003 23:11									#241
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I'm not saying that we weren't opposed to their aggression. What I am saying is that our embargo wasn't some noble, self-sacrificing, altruistic thing. There were strategic balance-of-power issues behind it.

The fact that it also meant we were cutting off key supplies to a regime that was running around invading other people's countries willy-nilly is a nice side benifit.

-Arrian

	12-05-2003 23:11									#242
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Ned:

"As the your status, HO, as an Austrian and your raising the issue of Nazi Germany, if it wasn't for America and her foolish, brain-dead ideals, you today would be living in the Third Reich."

Ah yes, you entered the war enthusiastically, based on your heroic ideals, as soon as Nazi germany annexed Austria. I guess it's the missing war of 1938-41, suppressed by the vast leftwing conspiracy, but soon to be recovered by Fox.

If you want America's foolish, brain-dead ideals to some extent, you have to go back to 1917. Without them, a certain party would have most likely not even been founded.

"It is almost offensive for someone in your country to snicker at American patriotism."

Sure, sweety. But I have no problem with american patriotism. I just have a problem with your braindead american jingoism.

	12-05-2003 23:12									#243
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The US only imposed an embargo on japan after their moes into french Indochina in 1941, not when they were invading China, and we only went to war when the happened to bomb US installations and invade overseas US holdings. One did not hear many cries in the US to stop the rampaging Japanese before dec 7.

	12-05-2003 23:13									#244
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat YEAH!! You tell 'im. Hear that Roland, we made you pukes free, and you have the freedom we gave you to say what you want, as long as it isn't critical of the great, glorious, freedom-loving beacon of light and humanity and granola, the USA!!!

And Israel, and scientology.

	12-05-2003 23:13									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Did you type that with a straight face? If it's a troll, fine. If not, you fall into the category of people who genuinely scare me. Not because they are bad people. But because they can be so easily led to support things if a politician utters magic words like "freedom." Even if freedom has nothing to do with it. I really hope the result of "Operation Iraqi Freedom" (*puke*) is a free, democratic Iraq that somehow manages not to hate us. I really do. I love the good things about this country. I love the principles we so often ignore. Flag-waving, chest-thumping and white-washing do not make the USA a better place. -Arrian

Those are the words of a true patriot

Usually the most patriotic aren't the ones with the big mouths and little brains

	12-05-2003 23:17									#246
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Ned has been brainwashed

He actually believe countries do things for noble idealistic reasons!!!

	12-05-2003 23:23									#247
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The US only imposed an embargo on japan after their moes into french Indochina in 1941, not when they were invading China, and we only went to war when the happened to bomb US installations and invade overseas US holdings. One did not hear many cries in the US to stop the rampaging Japanese before dec 7.

Because we were behaving in exactly the manner that you insist upon today: we were staying out of other countries' business. That's what you want, right? The US took a long time to act against Japan due to the US's isolationism.

	12-05-2003 23:32									#248
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Ya know, weeks after the start of this thing, I for one, still don't know what this so-called Operation Iraqi Freedom was supposed to be about. WMD? Get Saddam? Liberate Iraq? what? The admistration has changed its story so many times that I can't keep up.

All I know is we've spent 80+ BILLION dollars, managed to kill thousards of Iraqis and a hundred+ of our people while simultaneously p1ssing off the entire Arab world and completely alienating the French. How anyone could call this thing "a victory" is beyond me.

	12-05-2003 23:33									#249
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Don't you see the Iraqis cheering Gunkulator ?

	12-05-2003 23:36									#250
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It actually still has a chance to be a "victory" but it fades with every mistake our administrators make over there. Actually, it doesn't even require mistakes so much as time passing without visible progress. The Iraqis have little reason to be patient & understanding.

-Arrian

	12-05-2003 23:37									#251
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator managed to kill thousards of Iraqis

The Iraqis never claimed that many.

	12-05-2003 23:37									#252
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Because we were behaving in exactly the manner that you insist upon today: we were staying out of other countries' business. That's what you want, right? The US took a long time to act against Japan due to the US's isolationism.

Act against Japan? Who the hell acted against the US when it rampaged across the continent in the name of "manifest destiny"? It is so hipocritical that you say the US should have acted sooner against Japan since it is very ironic that one of history's greatest imperialists and land-grabbers suddenly wants Japan to cease its own expansion.

	12-05-2003 23:39									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Who the hell acted against the US when it rampaged across the continent in the name of "manifest destiny"?

Britian, Mexico, various Indian Nations.

	12-05-2003 23:41									#254
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Stopping History (or at least fundamentally changing the way nations interact) is pretty attractive to the countries at the top.

Hell, look at the "Security Council" and its approach to nukes. Hmm, we have them. They're terrible weapons which also provide almost total security against conventional attack. But they're terrible weapons... Oh, I've got it: no one else can have them! Yeah, that's the ticket. We get to keep ours, though, in case space monkeys attack us."

-Arrian

p.s. Gold Star for anyone who picks up the Eddie Izzard reference.

	12-05-2003 23:41									#255
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And who helped you with a nice bargain sale? The French.

	12-05-2003 23:43									#256
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Re the Dixie Chicks arguement earlier in the thread:

quote: Top Country Albums 2 Dixie Chicks, Home 6 CRG | 86840* | Monument/Columbia | (12.98 EQ/18.98)

http://www.billboard.com/bb/charts/country.jsp

They don't seem to be suffering much from it.

	12-05-2003 23:43									#257
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A bargain sale that Napolean thought was in his best interest, of course. He was a bit strapped for cash at that point, IIRC.

The Russians helped out too, with Alaska.

-Arrian

	12-05-2003 23:43									#258
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Yes, then so did China, Indochina, Korea, and all the others who were swallowed by Japan's expansion, we are talking about foreign powers around the world. No one stopped the US so I see little reason for the US stopping others who simply did the exact same thing in the other side of the globe.

btw smarty, how so did Britain stop US expansion??

EDIT: yes Dino, I'm talking to you

	12-05-2003 23:44									#259
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler And who helped you with a nice bargain sale? The French.

The suckers.

	12-05-2003 23:45									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian p.s. Gold Star for anyone who picks up the Eddie Izzard reference.

Oooh you're starting with Eddie Izzard again!

	12-05-2003 23:46									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Act against Japan? Who the hell acted against the US when it rampaged across the continent in the name of "manifest destiny"?

Ah, the ol' change the subject trick... Shall I bring up Aztec and Incan expansionist policies?

quote: It is so hipocritical that you say the US should have acted sooner against Japan since it is very ironic that one of history's greatest imperialists and land-grabbers suddenly wants Japan to cease its own expansion.

What is hypocritical about it? Must the US always behaveGreat nations will always conflict eventually. National interests can not be ignored forever and the most the US could stomach in 1941 was an emargo. Big whoop. Remember this was pre-GATT/WTO so nations were free to trade with whomever they wished without international reprecussions. Even you must admit that 1941 America was extremely isolationist.

	12-05-2003 23:48									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen we are talking about foreign powers around the world.

I had no idea that the UK and Mexico (at least) were within the sovereign territory of the US. When did that happen and why did we let them go?

quote: btw smarty, how so did Britain stop US expansion??

They tried to stop it by conquering it. Don't they teach you about the War of 1812 in the Mexican School system?

	12-05-2003 23:52									#263
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Ah, the ol' change the subject trick... Shall I bring up Aztec and Incan expansionist policies?

I didn't change the subject, I changed the players. You're changing the subject buy posting a nonsense comparison about two ancient-era civilizations which I pressume a look at my flag makes you think I bear some relation to. No, I am not Aztec any more than you are Scandinavian. I have no relation to the Aztec empire nor am I supporter of their policies so please make a decent comparison next time.

quote: What is hypocritical about it? Must the US always behaveGreat nations will always conflict eventually. National interests can not be ignored forever and the most the US could stomach in 1941 was an emargo. Big whoop. Remember this was pre-GATT/WTO so nations were free to trade with whomever they wished without international reprecussions. Even you must admit that 1941 America was extremely isolationist.

What I am getting at is that I find it hipocritical that you say the US should have acted out more firmly against Japan's expansionism, when the US itself was guilty of the same crimes just a few decades before.

	12-05-2003 23:55									#264
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I had no idea that the UK and Mexico (at least) were within the sovereign territory of the US. When did that happen and why did we let them go?

what the hell are you saying? Makes no sense...

quote: They tried to stop it by conquering it. Don't they teach you about the War of 1812 in the Mexican School system?

The war of 1812 was began BY the US after Britain tried to impress US sailors. If Britain had been trying to conquer the US it need not have waited for an excuse and would have done so waaay before, or waaay after.

	13-05-2003 00:01									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen what the hell are you saying? Makes no sense...

Do they not qualify as foreign powers even under your definition?

quote: The war of 1812 was began BY the US after Britain tried to impress US sailors.

[continued threadjack]The impressment of our sailors constituted an act of war in and of itself.[/continued threadjack]

quote: If Britain had been trying to conquer the US it need not have waited for an excuse and would have done so waaay before, or waaay after.

I'm only talking about her actions during the conflict. Before or after really isn't relevent.

	13-05-2003 00:07									#266
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A stupid person is stupid whether the biggest patriot in the world or an anti-nationalism protestor. Ignorance, stereotypes and plain stupidity exists on each side. There are also some pretty bright cookies on each side of almost every contentious issue.

	13-05-2003 00:15									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Ming, you are very correct.. so me not mentioning it was bad. And saying American patriots, it's not 100% true. There are different kind of patriots, they all consider them true patriots and still are very different, yet most likely they all are patriots by its definition. I didn't mean it to come out like that, sorry. Ned, I don't know about that. Maybe, maybe not..I just wanted to say, that I think that wasn't a solid argument.

Hey Pekka, thanks for the help. Of course, you know, I am pressing an extreme view in order to "liberal" bash the folks here on Apolyton. It's fun!

	13-05-2003 00:19									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian If you're arguing for more principled foreign policy, good for you, just don't even try to insinuate that our past or current policies have been/are principled. I think principled American foreign policy (beacon of democracy, freedom and lots of other wonderful things, etc) is probably a pipe dream, so I think I'd settle for a "realistic" foreign policy + dropping the silly rhetoric/flag waving. -Arrian

Actually, I am arguing somewhat for Jimmy Carter's foreign policy of being anti-dictator reqardless of whether they were friendly. The pragmatist, e.g., Kissinger, would argue the opposite.

But yes, of course, I am arguing for a principled foreign policy except where our national security concerns are overwhelming. Thus our support of Stalin was justified becuase it helped shorten the war and saved American lives.

	13-05-2003 00:21									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You have to admit he's insanely successful

(It's kind of fun to see you guys go ballistic over my flag-waving super patriot act. )

	13-05-2003 00:22									#270
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Ned, No problem. Go get'em all!