30-06-2003 13:07									#151
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quote: Okay, the Bokka might be slightly better than France right now...happy?

It might make him happy – but it isn’t true. You will see this yourself during the tri-nations. Scotland gave them some real problems in the two tests and haven’t caused any for the French in a very long time.

quote: Also the behaviour of Thorne was inexcusable

What did he do? I totally missed it (only paying sporadic attention Saturday)

quote: Baby All Blacks beat Baby Wallabies 22-10 in the final of the U 21 World Cup

Yes it was televised here in fact but I couldn’t raise any enthusiasm to watch it when more important things were happening (like England winning the Churchill Cup at a canter for example). Actually I was busy elsewhere but I thought that was more provocative.

It has to be positive for both sides that there is so much U-21 talent. Lets hope some of the lads make the step. Not least so that the ABs stop naturalising every talented player in the Australasian area. So this ‘Cocky Rocky’ lad – where in New Zealand was he born again lads?

quote: The referee was not unfair, he was just bad. Which is rather good for a SH referee.

quote: Not naming names of course.

Of course.

quote: We can look at it with the view that at least we won. France can take the attitude that they improved quite a bit. I think they got the better deal.

What worries me is that Finbar has been arguing for several weeks that it’s early season and that the ABs can and will play better. Saturday seemed to be a real step backwards from the solid performance of the week before? Okay it was a different class of opposition but the fact remains that highly rated young pack the ABs now have should not have stuttered against a second string Frenchie line up?

I think the ABs are going to shock us and maybe not win the tri-nations you know. Then again I might just be indulging in wishful thinking.

quote: Okay, here's your chance to be specific instead of just spraying like a Tom as you usually do

What a sublime line! ‘Spraying like a Tom’ – there’s one to store and bring out for Sunday best!

	30-06-2003 15:58									#152
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Okay, here's your chance to be specific instead of just spraying like a Tom as you usually do. What, apart from letting both teams stray offside, did he do wrong in your humble opinion?

List of typical forgotten fouls:

- Non straight line out throws (why bother sending the ball straight nowadays)
- Entering from the side (and even the rear) of a maul or an open scrum (only the elephant like fouls where whistled)
- Dummy runners
- Off sides (very loosely watched at)
- Blocking (especially with shoulders) instead of tackling
- Grabbing the ball in an open scrum with the hands without having the two feet on the ground
- Keeping the ball after a tackle (sometimes whistled too early sometimes not)...

Add a few fouls that were not real and you should get a picture.

I would have liked to be more accurate but the game was played saturday morning.

IMO, the fact your newspapers are appreciating Mr Watson is just reflecting that Mr Watson is refereeing like you like it, in a typical SH style. I think that a referee that would not whistle for a whole game would be considered as the best umpire of the history of Rugby.

	30-06-2003 17:10									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Havak What did he do? I totally missed it (only paying sporadic attention Saturday)

One of Les Grenouilles grabbed him off the ball so he let fly with a fist. No one saw it except the assistant ref who finally caught up with Watson 45 seconds later and 75 yards away. Watson asked if it was serious and the assistant ref called it "very serious". An assistant ref seeking a moment of glory, IMHO.

quote: Yes it was televised here in fact but I couldn’t raise any enthusiasm to watch it when more important things were happening (like England winning the Churchill Cup at a canter for example). Actually I was busy elsewhere but I thought that was more provocative.

I'll excuse that effort on the grounds that it was a slow Monday morning start.

quote: It has to be positive for both sides that there is so much U-21 talent. Lets hope some of the lads make the step.

A couple of the Australian U 21s - Josh Valentine and Mark Gerrard, in particular - will be Wallaby candidates next season.

quote: So this ‘Cocky Rocky’ lad – where in New Zealand was he born again lads?

That far northern suburb of Auckland called Fiji.

quote: What worries me is that Finbar has been arguing for several weeks that it’s early season and that the ABs can and will play better. Saturday seemed to be a real step backwards from the solid performance of the week before? Okay it was a different class of opposition but the fact remains that highly rated young pack the ABs now have should not have stuttered against a second string Frenchie line up?

Yes, I thought the ABs were disappointing. Not to take anything away from Les Grenouilles who really showed some nouse and fight. I wish I'd seen them against the Pumas to know how their effort compared. What puzzled me is what puzzled Caligastia - why the ABs opted not to contest so many Grenouilles' lineout throws?

quote: I think the ABs are going to shock us and maybe not win the tri-nations you know. Then again I might just be indulging in wishful thinking.

They might not win the Tri-Nations. Who knows? I'll be interested to see the team that Mitchell thinks is their A team. He said he would unveil it in the Tri-Nations. We're now getting some players back. It could be an interesting little series.

quote: What a sublime line! ‘Spraying like a Tom’ – there’s one to store and bring out for Sunday best!

You may use it free of royalties. He ignored it. That, or he's out looking for the latest edition of Le Petit Orphys.

	30-06-2003 17:14									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin List of typical forgotten fouls: - Non straight line out throws (why bother sending the ball straight nowadays) - Entering from the side (and even the rear) of a maul or an open scrum (only the elephant like fouls where whistled) - Dummy runners - Off sides (very loosely watched at) - Blocking (especially with shoulders) instead of tackling - Grabbing the ball in an open scrum with the hands without having the two feet on the ground - Keeping the ball after a tackle (sometimes whistled too early sometimes not)... Add a few fouls that were not real and you should get a picture.

He missed all Les Grenouilles' dummy runners, too. All up, the list pretty much includes everything Mr McHugh of the NH missed the week before.

quote: IMO, the fact your newspapers are appreciating Mr Watson is just reflecting that Mr Watson is refereeing like you like it, in a typical SH style. I think that a referee that would not whistle for a whole game would be considered as the best umpire of the history of Rugby.

See above.

	30-06-2003 18:32									#155
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quote: Originally posted by finbar He missed all Les Grenouilles' dummy runners, too. All up, the list pretty much includes everything Mr McHugh of the NH missed the week before.

I did not mention any side because he was equallly wrong and lenient with the two. The fact you are citing Mr McHugh confirms what I am writing since a few weeks:

- International referees are not good whether they are from the NH or the SH
- NH refs are more and more helming game like their SH counterparts

It is pretty interesting you only mentionned the Dummy Runners. Are you suggesting that the other fouls I listed were only commited by the ABs?

About spreading like a tom, I suppose this is related to the tommy gun and means spraying bullets everywhere. I don't need le petit ophrys for this one and there is the equivalent in France : "tirer dans tous les sens".

	30-06-2003 18:34									#156
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Never a truer word spoken - Mr McHugh missed those naughty Wallabies doing all those things and more. England as always were totally innocent

It is a shame Tamerlin chose not to respond to being accused of marking his territory indiscriminately I have to agree.

*edit* Even better that he chose another, yet still masculine, interpretation.

	01-07-2003 06:34									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin - NH refs are more and more helming game like their SH counterparts

You've been watching and learning from Havak's stepping. Pity you're just as clumsy!

quote: It is pretty interesting you only mentionned the Dummy Runners. Are you suggesting that the other fouls I listed were only commited by the ABs?

I started to type out the fouls committed by Les Grenouilles but a couple of problems arose - there was insufficient cyberspace to contain them all, and RSI struck. So I gave up.

quote: About spreading like a tom, I suppose this is related to the tommy gun and means spraying bullets everywhere. I don't need le petit ophrys for this one and there is the equivalent in France : "tirer dans tous les sens".

No, it has nothing to do with tommy guns, or, indeed, any weapons. Have another try.

	01-07-2003 06:41									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Havak *edit* Even better that he chose another, yet still masculine, interpretation.

Yes, and with a slightly more attractive odour - gunpowder.

	01-07-2003 06:56									#159
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Yes, and with a slightly more attractive odour - gunpowder.

le petit ophrys is not very useful in this case.

Are you talking about the habit of some male animals to pee on anything in order to mark their territory.

quote: I started to type out the fouls committed by Les Grenouilles but a couple of problems arose - there was insufficient cyberspace to contain them all, and RSI struck. So I gave up.

On the contrary, listing the regular actions of the SH players would not require even a single octet.

	01-07-2003 07:34									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin le petit ophrys is not very useful in this case. Are you talking about the habit of some male animals to pee on anything in order to mark their territory.

Got it! "Tom" is an abbreviation of "Tomcat", the male cat that pees to mark its territory. It's called spraying. Of course, when I noted that you "sprayed like a Tom", it had nothing to do with your bodily functions. A Tomcat sprays everywhere, totally indiscriminately. As do you in relation to SH refs!

Feel free to use the line anytime you like and totally baffle your amis grenouilles.

quote: On the contrary, listing the regular actions of the SH players would not require even a single octet.

Of course. Because they're so well known that they don't need to be publicised.

	01-07-2003 12:43									#161
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Personally I think I have a great step - but thanks for shattering my confidence.

	01-07-2003 13:36									#162
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Tamerlin really should leave SH refs alone... for they only give the fans a nice flowing game. Tamerlin obviously prefers referees that blow their whistles like steam trains

	01-07-2003 14:19									#163
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Tamerlin would argue that SH fans get a 'nice flowing game' because they don't understand and don't have the patience for a real game of Union that is played to the laws of the game.

We've seen continuity rugby at it worse (S12) and I am sure both he and I are happier with the type of rugby we see in our own leagues as it gives afar better platform for Test level IMHO.

And now over to Tamerlin...

	01-07-2003 15:27									#164
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It doesn't matter now. England have learnt to exploit all these things the SH have been getting away with for years. Instead of trying to play fairly and getting beaten we are starting to win.

	01-07-2003 16:05									#165
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You have summed it up adequately Havak...

Frozzy, continuity of the game... but which game of Rugby? You are happy with the SH way of umpiring a game because they are furthering the game of Rugby you have been used to since you are in swaddling clothes... and the game as it has been perverted to suit Murdoch's needs.

quote: We've seen continuity rugby at it worse (S12) and I am sure both he and I are happier with the type of rugby we see in our own leagues as it gives afar better platform for Test level IMHO.

Exactly!

quote: It doesn't matter now. England have learnt to exploit all these things the SH have been getting away with for years. Instead of trying to play fairly and getting beaten we are starting to win.

Oh yes it matters, it is a shame the NH teams have to adapt themselves to the SH way of umpiring the game in order to shine on the international scene.

Winning is good of course but this is not enough. The day all the games will look like this SH Rugby Union/L***** hodgepodge à la Murdoch I will no more go to the stadium.

Sorry for the "angry" smiley but I have been asked to use them regularly as Apolyton has ordered a ton of them... and I have been warned I have not used one since two or three posts.

	01-07-2003 16:09									#166
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Yeah, I know what you mean. Rugby L***** is an abomination and should be destroyed.

	01-07-2003 16:47									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Personally I think I have a great step - but thanks for shattering my confidence.

Your mate Mr Loosey would leave you with a shirtful of sore ribs.

	01-07-2003 16:52									#168
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Havak:

quote: We've seen continuity rugby at it worse (S12) and I am sure both he and I are happier with the type of rugby we see in our own leagues as it gives afar better platform for Test level IMHO. And now over to Tamerlin...

Tamerlin:

quote: Exactly!

As a duo, they sure put Thomas the Tank Engine and the Fat Controller to shame.

	01-07-2003 16:54									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Sorry for the "angry" smiley but I have been asked to use them regularly as Apolyton has ordered a ton of them... and I have been warned I have not used one since two or three posts.

Spraying like a Tom again? They can't control their most basic, primitive urges either.

	01-07-2003 17:10									#170
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quote: Instead of trying to play fairly and getting beaten we are starting to win.

We still need to be careful for my taste - lest the pupil totally overtake the master.

As for Lewsey Finbar old bean he could nail anyone here regardless how good their ‘step’ is. Typical young agressive Sandhurst Wallah.

I’m not sure I would have used the same analogy but I am quite happy to be counted with Tamerlin on the club issue. We both support long established City club sides rather than assembled franchises and we both watch domestic rugby policed more similar to test rugger than those franchises enjoy as far as I am concerned.

But then it’s an old hobby horse so perhaps it is inevitable those of us from the ‘old world’ will hold those views.

I choose my targets carefully incidentally.

Bad news – Woodward has just signed a deal that lasts until RWC 2007. Win or lose he now has a job after the world cup this year. The whole of Australia will be happy?

	01-07-2003 18:01									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Havak We still need to be careful for my taste - lest the pupil totally overtake the master.

Well, this WRC is your big chance. Probably your last one, too, for a little while unless you turn up another J****.

quote: As for Lewsey Finbar old bean he could nail anyone here regardless how good their ‘step’ is. Typical young agressive Sandhurst Wallah.

Yes, Gordon Bray - the commentator who knows his trivia - told us he was one of those. I could tell just from the fact that his eyes were too close together.

quote: I’m not sure I would have used the same analogy but I am quite happy to be counted with Tamerlin on the club issue. We both support long established City club sides rather than assembled franchises and we both watch domestic rugby policed more similar to test rugger than those franchises enjoy as far as I am concerned.

The trouble is, that MikeH has now joined in. So now it's a trio. I don't know whether T.t.T.E and T.F.C. have an offsider.

quote: I choose my targets carefully incidentally.

Neutered, hm?

quote: Bad news – Woodward has just signed a deal that lasts until RWC 2007. Win or lose he now has a job after the world cup this year. The whole of Australia will be happy?

I suspect he will quit if he doesn't win the WRC. I'm not sure he could handle missing out. Or if he doesn't quit, the din will drive him out.

	01-07-2003 19:08									#172
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quote: Well, this WRC is your big chance. Probably your last one, too, for a little while unless you turn up another J****.

Actually I can’t agree. Jonno is certainly a one-off and he leaves big shoes to fill as both a player and a captain – but someone will turn up in both roles given time. Australia after all survived ‘Nobody’ going without falling totally apart (though nothing currently in your second row is even close to that quality).

The change in out national side in the last Eight years has been remarkable. The last four years in particular have seen us take huge leaps – from a joke to the SH sides to very serious threats. We should realistically challenge at every World Cup from now on. Sure there will be up and downs in the cycle but we’ll never sink back to the completely non competitive side of amateur days.

quote: I could tell just from the fact that his eyes were too close together.

The place is slightly less exclusive these days. Pale Blue blood can get you in.

quote: I don't know whether T.t.T.E and T.F.C. have an offsider.

Congrats. You have me baffled here.

quote: Neutered, hm?

Nope – just too lazy to want to defend all that random spraying.

quote: Or if he doesn't quit, the din will drive him out.

I’d be amazed if the media allowed him to continue – even if we lose the final by one point to the greatest display of running rugby ever seen from the other team.

I’m curious about the timing of this new contract though. I’m sure the existing one went past the RWC. It smacks of the RFU proving it’s a gentlemans club still in some ways:

“I say chaps lets give Clive a vote of confidence before the big bully off in October. Shall we say four more years?”

	01-07-2003 19:17									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Havak What did he do? I totally missed it (only paying sporadic attention Saturday)

They didn't actually replay the incident until Thorne came back on 10 minutes later.

quote: What worries me is that Finbar has been arguing for several weeks that it’s early season and that the ABs can and will play better.

How nice of you to be so concerned.

quote: I think the ABs are going to shock us and maybe not win the tri-nations you know. Then again I might just be indulging in wishful thinking.

Who would you like to see win the Tri-nations?

	01-07-2003 20:05									#174
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ENGLAND?

	01-07-2003 20:09									#175
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The serious answer is that whilst I can admire the qualities of the Wallabies I could never support them as such. The Boks - well I don't think so, not at least whilst Krige is still involved. I'll be backing the ABs as per normal.

But the fact I'm backing them doesn't alter the fact I also expect them to slip up.

	01-07-2003 20:36									#176
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quote: Originally posted by finbar The trouble is, that MikeH has now joined in. So now it's a trio. I don't know whether T.t.T.E and T.F.C. have an offsider.

Some subtleties of the English language are still a mystery to me...

	02-07-2003 04:51									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Actually I can’t agree. Jonno is certainly a one-off and he leaves big shoes to fill as both a player and a captain – but someone will turn up in both roles given time. Australia after all survived ‘Nobody’ going without falling totally apart (though nothing currently in your second row is even close to that quality).

Yes, but it boils down to how much England depends on him. The evidence is, as you have already observed (and even, on one occasion, bemoaned), that it depends on him to an almost unhealthy degree. We never depended on The Person To Whom You Refer to anywhere near the same degree you depend on J****.

Who, out of interest, do you think the next J**** might be? Given, obviously, that there can never, literally, be another one. But in the spiritual sense? Ben Kay strikes me as a very good player, but, unless there's a side to him that I haven't seen, not a Leader Of Men as J**** is. And that's the magical ingredient in the recipe - leadership.

quote: The change in out national side in the last Eight years has been remarkable. The last four years in particular have seen us take huge leaps – from a joke to the SH sides to very serious threats. We should realistically challenge at every World Cup from now on. Sure there will be up and downs in the cycle but we’ll never sink back to the completely non competitive side of amateur days.

Of course you won't. Calamity aside, with the structures you have in place, you can't. And I wasn't suggesting you would. Of course everything is cyclical, and England's turn at the top of cycle happens to coincide with a WRC year.

quote: The place is slightly less exclusive these days. Pale Blue blood can get you in.

The place should be abolished. As should fox hunting, which would be if the House of Lords were abolished too, which it should be. Gee, President Tony can't take much of a trick these days, can he? Rolled within his own party over fox hunting too? Oh, and I'm following with great interest the dispute between Alistair Campbell and the BBC journo. I suspect Alistair has bovver-boyed once too often.

quote: Congrats. You have me baffled here.

I baffled Tamerlin, too, which was, with great respect, a bit more fun. Don't let on to him, but they were just acronyms - Thomas the Tank Engine, and The Fat Controller. I know I can divulge them to you without him finding out - he never reads my posts. He just replies to anything I post with angry smilies as a matter of course these days.

quote: Nope – just too lazy to want to defend all that random spraying.

Sometimes I wish I were lazy enough to let some of those angry smilies through to the 'keeper.

*Tamerlin reaches for his Petit Orphys*

quote: I’d be amazed if the media allowed him to continue – even if we lose the final by one point to the greatest display of running rugby ever seen from the other team.

That's what I think. It's also another reason why his media performance here was silly. Winning with grace makes it much easier to lose with grace.

quote: I’m curious about the timing of this new contract though. I’m sure the existing one went past the RWC. It smacks of the RFU proving it’s a gentlemans club still in some ways: “I say chaps lets give Clive a vote of confidence before the big bully off in October. Shall we say four more years?”

Mmmm. These things are never a one-way street. I wonder who initiated it.

	02-07-2003 04:54									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Some subtleties of the English language are still a mystery to me...

	02-07-2003 05:23									#179
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quote: Originally posted by finbar ...which would be if the House of Lords were abolished too, which it should be.

As far as I remember, the House of Lords has already been abolished...

quote: I baffled Tamerlin, too, which was, with great respect, a bit more fun. Don't let on to him, but they were just acronyms - Thomas the Tank Engine, and The Fat Controller. I know I can divulge them to you without him finding out - he never reads my posts. He just replies to anything I post with angry smilies as a matter of course these days.

I read all the posts, this is the reason why I don't have the time to reply.

quote: Sometimes I wish I were lazy enough to let some of those angry smilies through to the 'keeper.

You can't... you can't help!

Gentlemen, I am away until the 20th of July and will not be able to connect to the Apolyton Site until then (Aaaargh!).

Havak and MikeH, you are now the only defenders of the NH against the SH heretics. You have all my support and confidence... have fun!

Finbar: don't be too harsh with them...









(just as a matter of form)

	02-07-2003 07:56									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin As far as I remember, the House of Lords has already been abolished...

No, unfortunately not.

quote: I read all the posts, this is the reason why I don't have the time to reply.

Yes, I suppose between all that reading and all that thumbing through ton Petit Orphys there aren't enough hours left in the day for you to post!

quote: You can't... you can't help!

Just watch me! When you get back ...

quote: Gentlemen, I am away until the 20th of July and will not be able to connect to the Apolyton Site until then (Aaaargh!).

A-ha! Laporte has called on your services to coach the team in your preferred Bronze Age brand of rugby!

quote: Havak and MikeH, you are now the only defenders of the NH against the SH heretics. You have all my support and confidence... have fun!

A-ha! The master leaves the apprentices in charge of the fort.

*finbar salivates and ties on his bib*

quote: Finbar: don't be too harsh with them...

No more harsh than any hungry, bad-mannered lion would be with any pair of innocent baby zebras he stumbled across.









(just as a matter of form) [/QUOTE]