 |
| |
|
|
Havak
|
 |
Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:29
|
|
quote:
We never depended on The Person To Whom You Refer to anywhere near the same degree you depend on J****. |
That is very true. What I am hoping here is that Jonno having served a full season with the national side for once – no injuries and no red mist suspensions this year so he played ten from ten - will have seasoned the younger lads and allowed them to really learn from him. I guess I’m hoping counter-intuitively that his constant presence may actually have helped lessen the reliance on him. Yeah I know it sounds strange. The point is we haven’t had to play any morale sapping tests with a Dill in charge – and the Dills next on line have had plenty of time to study the master at work. 
The thing is with our playing talent now, and the far better structured support and coaching setup, we should never fade totally away again. Well I can but hope.
quote:
Ben Kay strikes me as a very good player, but, unless there's a side to him that I haven't seen, not a Leader Of Men as J**** is. |
He actually had a superb season captaining England A in 2002 but you are right he isn’t really in the frame at the moment. Then again he is only 27, the same age at which Martin had only just become club captain at Tigers (Lions and England skipper still in his future). I really would like to see them give the lad the role and I think it will be the making of him – but I’m hardly neutral.
But internationally the boys really in the frame are the vice captains Vickery and Wilkinson. I’ve bemoaned Vickery before – he is only in the frame because of Glaws purple patch and he has never convinced me with his on field decision making. Wilko, well he has enough on his plate and I’m not sure I want him saddled with the Captaincy. Of the two, from what I’ve seen of the club captaincy from them, it has to be Wilko.
quote:
Of course everything is cyclical, and England's turn at the top of cycle happens to coincide with a WRC year. |
As you know I’m just happy we have muscled into the cycle. 
Only a fool wouldn’t expect the tri-nation sides to return to the top at various points. Although the Boks have a huge amount of work to do at the moment.
quote:
Gee, President Tony can't take much of a trick these days, can he? Rolled within his own party over fox hunting too? |
Okay a small aside into politics.
For starters the Lords has not been dissolved but has been hugely changed in nature. It’s still an invitiational house but that is now solely down to political patronage and there are less delgates overall. What has happened is that the hereditary inbreds have been kicked out and can no longer thwart the will of the people – only these political appointees can now (some of which are still the self same inbreds). A very English revolution.
It’s a fascinating place to be right now here in England. Even if the Lords bounce the bill again it’s reached the stage where Parliament can then impose it (the Lords cannot continually thwart the will of the Commons – they can send legislation back three times I believe then the metaphorical two finger are dtuick up by the ‘plebs’).
Of course I live in a huge Fox hunting area so it’s particularly interesting for me. I’m against it by the way – I’m very well aware foxes need controlling (far too successful little animals) but Fox hunting has nothing to do with that and everything to do with social elitism. Weigh five men with guns against hundreds of nobs dressed to the nines on horseback – and they argue the hunt is the most efficient way of doing the job! 
And Alastair Campbell and the ‘apology’ argument? Tactical error by Tony. The British people largely have great affection for Auntie and it’s hard to see what they have done wrong when the Government refuses to give any proof of this 45 minute business – alledged to be made up by this one BBC source that Auntie is protecting (in the best journalistic practice). The same cannot be said of Campbell (former Mirror journo thought of as Tony’s 'King Spin'). Most of us are smart enough to realise Campbell is trying to deflect the questions about the 45 minute nonsense in the WOMD report presented to Parliament.
This could really come back and bite Tony hard. Didn’t Watergate start from a smaller acorn than this?
quote:
Sometimes I wish I were lazy enough to let some of those angry smilies through to the 'keeper. |
No one could stop them all. You make a great effort.
quote:
Winning with grace makes it much easier to lose with grace. |
I can almost see the feeding frenzy down there should we lose.
quote:
Mmmm. These things are never a one-way street. I wonder who initiated it. |
Indeed. You are suggesting who had the most to gain?
quote:
No more harsh than any hungry, bad-mannered lion would be with any pair of innocent baby zebras he stumbled across. |
At least he has left us in charge at the right time, our close season. As long as the A team doesn’t stuff up in Japan there should be little to hunt us with unless we bring it on ourselves of course.
At the same time the tri-nations is about to start in earnest so there is plenty for us to put under the
microscope.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
finbar
|
 |
Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:29
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Havak
That is very true. What I am hoping here is that Jonno having served a full season with the national side for once – no injuries and no red mist suspensions this year so he played ten from ten - will have seasoned the younger lads and allowed them to really learn from him. I guess I’m hoping counter-intuitively that his constant presence may actually have helped lessen the reliance on him. Yeah I know it sounds strange. The point is we haven’t had to play any morale sapping tests with a Dill in charge – and the Dills next on line have had plenty of time to study the master at work. |
Yes, but you can't learn personality or presence. You can't learn to have the impact of two or three players. It's not a criticism, it just underlines the rarity of the inspirational leader.
quote:
He actually had a superb season captaining England A in 2002 but you are right he isn’t really in the frame at the moment. Then again he is only 27, the same age at which Martin had only just become club captain at Tigers (Lions and England skipper still in his future). I really would like to see them give the lad the role and I think it will be the making of him – but I’m hardly neutral. |
Who knows? It depends what depths he has. I mean, The Sainted One Himself proved you don't need overt mongreldom to be an inspirational leader, et al.
quote:
But internationally the boys really in the frame are the vice captains Vickery and Wilkinson. I’ve bemoaned Vickery before – he is only in the frame because of Glaws purple patch and he has never convinced me with his on field decision making. Wilko, well he has enough on his plate and I’m not sure I want him saddled with the Captaincy. Of the two, from what I’ve seen of the club captaincy from them, it has to be Wilko. |
Oh jeez, don't burden Wilkinson any more than he already would be without J**** in the team. If Dalaglio stays around, stays fit, and keeps his form, he could make a return, I suppose. I don't know what he's like tactically.
quote:
It’s a fascinating place to be right now here in England. Even if the Lords bounce the bill again it’s reached the stage where Parliament can then impose it (the Lords cannot continually thwart the will of the Commons – they can send legislation back three times I believe then the metaphorical two finger are dtuick up by the ‘plebs’). |
It's about as silly as our Upper House (Senate). Ostensibly a States' House, with (from memory) 10 Senators from each state and territory, supposed, according to the constitution, to examine legislation from their various states' and territories' points of view. In reality, a carbon copy of the House of Reps, voting along party lines. As often as not, the balance of power in the Senate is held by a minor party with two members or an indendent, who hold the government of the day to ransom. Such is Democracy. 
quote:
Of course I live in a huge Fox hunting area so it’s particularly interesting for me. I’m against it by the way – I’m very well aware foxes need controlling (far too successful little animals) but Fox hunting has nothing to do with that and everything to do with social elitism. Weigh five men with guns against hundreds of nobs dressed to the nines on horseback – and they argue the hunt is the most efficient way of doing the job! |
Chinless, dribbling, gin-swilling nobs. Not to put too fine a point on it.
quote:
This could really come back and bite Tony hard. Didn’t Watergate start from a smaller acorn than this? |
It will, eventually, come back to bite various leaders in various countries hard.
quote:
Indeed. You are suggesting who had the most to gain? |
I don't know what the RFU had to gain.
quote:
At least he has left us in charge at the right time, our close season. As long as the A team doesn’t stuff up in Japan there should be little to hunt us with unless we bring it on ourselves of course. |
Since when has there needed to be reason? Ask Tony Blair, et al.
quote:
At the same time the tri-nations is about to start in earnest so there is plenty for us to put under the
microscope. |
I shall treat it all in exactly the same manner I treat Tamerlin's posts. 'Nuff said.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
finbar
|
|
Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:29
|
|
Oh, I almost forgot. The Brumbies exodus continues. Dan Vickerman has followed our Justin to the Waratahs, and another reserve lock, Pusey, is nicking off to Munster as an Irishman because a distant relative apparently once blew the froth off a glass of Guinness. Thus, in a blink, they've gone from a surfeit of locks, to David Giffen and I'm not sure who else. The Waratahs are also making another very big play for Matt Giteau, offering him what he can't have at the Brumbies - the flyhalf spot. Of course, everyone is denying the exodus is in any way related to dissatisfaction with the coach and management. Sides of bacon might fly.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
finbar
|
|
Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:29
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Havak
There’s always the nagging doubt though – as good as he was would a little ‘eye glaze’ have made him better yet? |
You can't improve on perfection, you know that.
quote:
Dallaglio tactically? He makes some very ill considered decisions, seems prone to getting carried away and show boating rathering than just securing the win. He cost us a huge game with Wales in 1999 by refusing a kick at the posts at the death – and that’s just not acceptable for a national skipper. |
Oh well, as big an idiot on the field as he is off the field. Pity.
quote:
As for Fox hunting you got the tipple right. There’s talk of civil disobedience and threats of ‘it’s hard to arrest someone on a horse’. It’s going to be fun all right. |
Line the bastards up against their hedgerows and shoot them.
quote:
On the other point my primary concern if a Government sponsored report has been presented to parliament with a deliberate falsehood in it then the PM needs to apologise to the house for it and his Spin chief needs to fall on the sword for being so damn stupid. |
Absolutely. The excuse here, of course, will be that they were only passing on what they were told.
quote:
The RFU may have gained stability. Clive was at best their fourth choice in 1997 – people kept turning them down and that may have left an impression on them? |
So if he goes if they lose the WRC, which I bet he will, what happens to their stability then? A really silly exercise all round, I'd've thought.
quote:
As Gospel? |
M-hm. In his absence, you're taking over as the dispenser of nonsense? I'm waiting with bated breath for the first you-know-what smilie, too.
quote:
Absolutely. When enough rats are fleeing the bilges there’s too much water there. |
I think I passed on the rumours earlier in the season. It's all coming true.
quote:
Who were the incumbent NSW locks? Looks like they are out on their ear then? |
Tom Bowman, a loyal and hard-working servant, and various partners - Van Harrison, and I've forgotten the others. If our Justin pulls his finger out, he and Vickerman will bring some class to the pack.
quote:
The Cullen business has surprised me though – so he is happy to call time on his ABs days without a further fight? He’s not that old is he? |
I'm not in the least bit surprised. I think he knew the writing was on the wall as long ago as last season when he lost his permanent fixture status. I do love his nickname - Bottle. Because he's empty from the neck up.
quote:
The other surprising aspect if that the Irish provinces are meant to be in fiscal trouble – Munster seem intent on disproving that. |
I don't know who else they plan to sign, but Cullen would only get the funds earmarked for Latham. Pusey, the Brumbies' back-up lock, wouldn't be in a position to ask for a vast sum.
quote:
And Finbar if Waughy has another big game I don’t expect even Smithy to walk straight back in. Nice to have him back on the bench though? |
It was a big surprise that he failed the fitness test. I'd've thought they would've been monitoring him. I'm not sure if anyone yet knows how long he will miss, but I'm quite sure he'll come back into the squad if he recovers in time. Obviously it gives Waugh even more chance to cement himself. Ironically, Eddie was only talking on the TV rugby show the other week about playing them both and having Smith develop his jumping to use him in the lineout. He jumped for the Brumbies in his early days, under Eddie, and showed ability, apparently.
Oh, and I heard an interesting item on the World Service the other night. In your country, the way the trend is heading, the average male will outlive the average female, a reversal of the traditional situation. The experts put it down to females in your country drinking more, and leading sedentary lifestyles. So what's it like to be a role model for the females in your country?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Havak
|
|
Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:29
|
|
quote:
You can't improve on perfection, you know that. |
But there’s the thing. He never quite pushed himself hard enough to match Jonno’s perfection.
quote:
…against their hedgerows and shoot them. |
Strangely the Cottesmore hunt is currently in trouble because Animal Welfare people have filmed their employees transplanting Foxes into artificial sets on Sheep grazing land. That’s right the very organisation claiming it is efficiently controlling numbers is actually running a program to ensure there are decent populations on hunting grounds.
quote:
So if he goes if they lose the WRC, which I bet he will, what happens to their stability then? A really silly exercise all round, I'd've thought. |
Well when you put it like that I would have to agree. If we win the World Cup I would imagine he’ll get a lifetime deal though. 
quote:
I'm waiting with bated breath for the first you-know-what smilie, too. |
I feel I am being insulted by a heretic. 
Did that capture the flavour?
quote:
I think I passed on the rumours earlier in the season. It's all coming true. |
You did alert us to trouble at t’mill as I recall. Bowman is a solid enough chap but the two ACT guys must usurp him – he can’t be happy? What we haven’t reminded ourselves is that Giffen has been constantly linked with a move to the NH after November. From surplus to bankruptcy for ACT?
quote:
He jumped for the Brumbies in his early days, under Eddie, and showed ability, apparently. |
It’s a little unusual to use an openside flanker in the lineout as a jumper isn’t it? Loitering for ball sure but jumping? It doesn’t seem to play to Smithy’s strengths (guile and artistry around the ball). Not convinced here – but I guess I should wait and see.
quote:
The experts put it down to females in your country drinking more, and leading sedentary lifestyles. So what's it like to be a role model for the females in your country? |
Feels pretty darn good actually. I can handle being a role model for young ladies. Of course I’d rather be something they aspired to instead. 
It’s actually a growing problem here for sure. Binge drinking is a long established problem for young men but over the last twenty years the girls have really taken it up too. I would agree they now outdo the lads at it. There is certainly going to be a generation of grannies with interesting tattoos and a tendency to like vodka in their soft drinks.
As for Cullen, Mitchell is favouring Blair and Howlett is that right? I’d have thought Cullen could fight his way back in – but maybe the nick name speaks volumes there?
Don’t let Randell sign for Sarries – it would be a total waste. Tigers don’t really need him but if he did feel like visiting Leicester…
No news of Kronfeld by the way – no idea if he is staying.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
finbar
|
|
Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:29
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Havak
But there’s the thing. He never quite pushed himself hard enough to match Jonno’s perfection. |
No, he didn't deliberately, pointlessly step on people and give away penalties, or anything like that.
quote:
Strangely the Cottesmore hunt is currently in trouble because Animal Welfare people have filmed their employees transplanting Foxes into artificial sets on Sheep grazing land. That’s right the very organisation claiming it is efficiently controlling numbers is actually running a program to ensure there are decent populations on hunting grounds. |
It just occurred to me - Gillette and Wilkinson Sword and Schick, et al, would hate these people even more than I do. Without chins, they'd hardly buy more than a packet of blades every couple of years.
quote:
Well when you put it like that I would have to agree. If we win the World Cup I would imagine he’ll get a lifetime deal though. |
I think he'll be at the dole office in November.
quote:
I feel I am being insulted by a heretic.
Did that capture the flavour? |
Promising effort. Didn't quite have his Absinthe and Gauloise-saturated world-weariness, though.
quote:
You did alert us to trouble at t’mill as I recall. Bowman is a solid enough chap but the two ACT guys must usurp him – he can’t be happy? |
He's probably not happy. He was heading overseas at the end of last season, from memory, and was talked into staying.
quote:
What we haven’t reminded ourselves is that Giffen has been constantly linked with a move to the NH after November. |
You keep mentioning that but I haven't heard a peep about it.
quote:
It’s a little unusual to use an openside flanker in the lineout as a jumper isn’t it? Loitering for ball sure but jumping? It doesn’t seem to play to Smithy’s strengths (guile and artistry around the ball). Not convinced here – but I guess I should wait and see. |
I think it was talked about in terms of playing both Waugh and Smith. Waugh openside, Smith blindside and jumping, in the same way that Finegan frequently does. So it's really only a theory.
quote:
Feels pretty darn good actually. I can handle being a role model for young ladies. Of course I’d rather be something they aspired to instead. |
What? Ample, with a high forehead? Perish the thought.
quote:
It’s actually a growing problem here for sure. Binge drinking is a long established problem for young men but over the last twenty years the girls have really taken it up too. I would agree they now outdo the lads at it. There is certainly going to be a generation of grannies with interesting tattoos and a tendency to like vodka in their soft drinks. |
Same here, too. A huge number of young females are drinking like fish and smoking like chimneys. I can afford to use these cheap metaphors while notre petite grenouille is out of cyber range.
quote:
As for Cullen, Mitchell is favouring Blair and Howlett is that right? I’d have thought Cullen could fight his way back in – but maybe the nick name speaks volumes there? |
Blair and Howlett. And he's used Macdonald. I don't know where Macdonald is at the moment. And Cullen, while capable of wonderful tries, was prone to clangers. Mitchell seems to prefer the versatility. It was evident even last season, so that's why the move didn't surprise me.
quote:
Don’t let Randell sign for Sarries – it would be a total waste. Tigers don’t really need him but if he did feel like visiting Leicester… |
I'll be interested to see whether Randell makes the squad. He really did have a fine S12 season. It wouldn't surprise me if it's his AB history that counts against him - he was skipper during some of the darker recent days, and Mitchell might want to cut that adrift. Still, he'll need to select someone better.
quote:
No news of Kronfeld by the way – no idea if he is staying. |
And I did read here the other day that Pat Howard is going back to the NH. France, I think. Or had you already told me that?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Havak
|
|
Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:29
|
|
quote:
No, he didn't deliberately, pointlessly step on people and give away penalties, or anything like that. |
Glad you agree. I mean what kind of lock doesn’t do that?
quote:
Without chins, they'd hardly buy more than a packet of blades every couple of years. |
Nice line.
quote:
I think he'll be at the dole office in November. |
I see several teams that could beat us. I see none that should automatically or necessarily expect to. Clive may stay with us past November.
quote:
Promising effort. Didn't quite have his Absinthe and Gauloise-saturated world-weariness, though. |
To directly quote our friend:
I am not a master!
I have not heard Bowman linked with any sides up here – but I suppose he could always head to Munster. Their door seems to be open as they’ve also signed a former AB centre – Steinmetz.
The Giffen rumour came from printed media a while ago (Express I think) – and I think it was bath he was linked with. Nothing may come of it but it’s now a well established pattern fro 30 somethings to retire here so I doubt either of us would be surprised?
Sorry I misunderstood about Smithy. I should have realised he would bump to blindside.
quote:
What? Ample, with a high forehead? Perish the thought. |
A man has to have dreams. 
quote:
I can afford to use these cheap metaphors while notre petite grenouille is out of cyber range. |
Fair point.
The smoking thing is a real problem to. It seems as you say to have re-asserted itself amongst the young – especially the girls. Still it won’t be long before it gets banned in public places here and that will do for me – I hate smoke ruining my beer.
quote:
And Cullen, while capable of wonderful tries, was prone to clangers. |
Yes I missed MacDonald – though he seems plagued by injury. As for Cullen have you seen the balanced opinion piece on Planet Rugby? Let me sum it up – “Mitchell is an idiot”. Only one mentioned his suspect defence and even they thought it had vastly improved.
quote:
It wouldn't surprise me if it's his AB history that counts against him - he was skipper during some of the darker recent days, and Mitchell might want to cut that adrift. Still, he'll need to select someone better. |
It’s okay, Tamerlin is missing so you can mention he was skipper for the darkest day of all four years ago.
I’m surprised at Mitchell – a coach should pick on form before almost anything else – and it’s not like Randell was caught snorting powder now is it?
quote:
And I did read here the other day that Pat Howard is going back to the NH. France, I think. Or had you already told me that? |
I had mentioned a while back that I had heard rumours of his going to Montferand. Shame he didn’t think of a move before we signed Gibson. Not that I’m sorry we singed the lad of course – he comes highly rated.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
finbar
|
|
Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:29
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Glad you agree. I mean what kind of lock doesn’t do that? |
One who doesn't need to, obviously.
quote:
I see several teams that could beat us. |
True.
quote:
I see none that should automatically or necessarily expect to. |
True.
quote:
Clive may stay with us past November. |
On balance, I think, only if he has hide thick enough to withstand the slings and arrows and bazookas he'll cop when they don't win.
quote:
To directly quote our friend:
I am not a master! |
This is creepy! Either you're channeling him or he didn't stop at the seaside and continued on across the channel to Leicester!
quote:
I have not heard Bowman linked with any sides up here – but I suppose he could always head to Munster. Their door seems to be open as they’ve also signed a former AB centre – Steinmetz. |
I think you might hear of Bowman linking up with someone up there. Steinmetz? An AB? Well, technically, by the skin of his teeth.
quote:
The Giffen rumour came from printed media a while ago (Express I think) – and I think it was bath he was linked with. Nothing may come of it but it’s now a well established pattern fro 30 somethings to retire here so I doubt either of us would be surprised? |
I actually don't think he's that old. I'll check.
quote:
A man has to have dreams. |
When you get to my age you'll realise they were a waste of brain space and regret not having better utilised the space for more important things like rugby.
quote:
Yes I missed MacDonald – though he seems plagued by injury. As for Cullen have you seen the balanced opinion piece on Planet Rugby? Let me sum it up – “Mitchell is an idiot”. Only one mentioned his suspect defence and even they thought it had vastly improved. |
He was responsible for a couple of real clangers this S12 season. It's obviously his supporters who say he had a good S12 season, because I thought it was only average. He has, understandably, lost some of his brilliant acceleration, meaning he's less of a try-scoring threat. And, face it, Mitchell already has a couple of try-scoring threats in the team without Cullen.
quote:
It’s okay, Tamerlin is missing so you can mention he was skipper for the darkest day of all four years ago. |
No, I'm sure Tamerlin only has to poke his finger into a power socket to connect to cyber space and monitor what I post.
quote:
I’m surprised at Mitchell – a coach should pick on form before almost anything else – and it’s not like Randell was caught snorting powder now is it? |
Well, exactly. And Mitchell might pick him, but, given that he didn't appear in any of the three Tests, one has to wonder. Randell is a much improved player since those dark days. Some of his stuff this S12 season was inspirational - a tribute to him given that it has since been revealed that relations between coach and skipper and most of the team were pretty poisonous. So if he's not picked, I can only assume that Mitchell either thinks he's too old, or too much of a link with the past.
quote:
I had mentioned a while back that I had heard rumours of his going to Montferand. Shame he didn’t think of a move before we signed Gibson. Not that I’m sorry we singed the lad of course – he comes highly rated. |
There's always the possibility that Pat considered returning to Leicester but preferred, instead, a team on the way up.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Caligastia
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Frozzy
Cullen has picked his colours, and it's not black or gold. |
Gold?! The horror! The thought of Christian Cullen playing for Oz is almost too horrible to bear!
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:29.
Apolyton Time is 00:29. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
02-07-2003 13:17
|