07-07-2003 16:43									#1
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This thread now serves the as the office of the Foriegn Minister, where Messages (and in the case of team monkey, hate-mail ) will be written up and approved before being sent.
Please be aware that meesages sent may not nessecarily be diplomatic, merely expressive of the current opinion of Our Nation.
I bid you farewell, and patiently wait for my first task.

	08-07-2003 16:10									#2
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Out that My first Task is to introduce us to the rest of the World so here is the intro of the intro:
'Nations Of of the Second PTW Democracy Game!!!!! Fear Us For We are Now are organised into A Goverment!!!!!
** Dramatic Imposing Music**
After 450 Years of Insults, Sarcasm and General Argument (Mostly Consisting of contradiction of the most simple type) we have Laid out A Government.'

First off, before I do any more Introducing, Can Our very spiffy leaders introduce themselves in a manner that shows guile witt and humour. It also must make people aware that we are cunning suprising and really really smart.

Here my Example:
Rendelnep, Templar of Indo-African Felines and also A Major Supporter Of the "Montys against Monkeys" Party. He travelled across the world and has great understanding of the Socio- political Climate of Great Britain, Borgravia, Mercia, Austrailia and New Zealand and also Guildford. Thus He Seeem like the perfect First Commuincations Cardinal to the Exterior.

	13-07-2003 00:20									#3
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We have more pressing matters. As the last turn-thread reveals, we have contact with Cake or Death. I suggest discussion on the topic at once.

	13-07-2003 01:52									#4
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Our most urgent issue is what to do with their scout. We should definitely ask him to stay out of our borders in the future. But with our limited exploration and soon-to-be settler pump, I don't think we want to provoke a war.

Do the Izzards have Masonry yet? We should offer to sell it if possible.

	19-07-2003 22:10									#5
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I am not a leader, nor am I particularly funny, unless you find paranoid androids humorous, but that's not even monthy python. I'll probably end up having the same status as filthy bathwater in this forum, but since I have nothing else to do I might as well come here and be mocked on an irregular basis.

Oh, yeah, I am the Lazy priest and nothing I ever do is good enough, even God complains about my work WHY HAVENT YOU CONVERTED MORE HEATHENS, WHY ARENT YOU DONE WITH THE ARC AND STOP GROVELLING!!! all the time he keeps nagging me with that stuff.

It's really awfully depressing...

	19-07-2003 22:41									#6
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LzPrst, that was funny.

Would you like to start writing The Hitchhiker's Guide to Camelot?

	20-07-2003 06:00									#7
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it was? i really didnt think so. humour is so subjective. i bet you're the only one who liked it. the rest of the crew probably wants to kill us both now. I'm sorry for dragging you into this. if your laughing in any way was uncomfortable for you, I apoligize for the inconvenience...

i feel so depressed

i could write it, but noone would like it. even if they cared to read it. i'll probably be turned into a newt when I'm halfways there, and i shan't expect to get better. i hear people tend to eat newts. it'll really be quite horrible i fear.
and I shan't be able to finish the guide and people will probably go around calling poor dennis "old woman" cause I'll never get around to describing the poor workers. *sigh*

it's all so depressing

	25-07-2003 00:26									#8
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There's work for the foreign minister. Please answer the note of Izzardia.

	28-07-2003 02:26									#9
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Since nobody has done it so far, I prepared an answer. Just unpack this zip file in an empty folder and open the file index.html

http://www.datenmuell.de/mp-izzardia.zip

	28-07-2003 02:57									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Since nobody has done it so far, I prepared an answer. Just unpack this zip file in an empty folder and open the file index.html http://www.datenmuell.de/mp-izzardia.zip

Awesome! After hearing about this, other teams will be looking forward to making contact with us!

	28-07-2003 10:38									#11
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D'oh! I knew I missed something before I went to St. Louis...

Still, that's hilarious!

	28-07-2003 10:59									#12
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Thats the diplomacy i like.....

	28-07-2003 11:10									#13
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Good, so I'm sending it now.

	29-07-2003 00:46									#14
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That's great!

	01-08-2003 14:02									#15
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There's work again for the FAM in the Cake or Death contact thread.

I wouldn't mind to trade techs, but would seek a bit compensation for the not quite even trade. Perhaps 10 gold coins?

	01-08-2003 15:59									#16
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You beat me to the punch. I got the same PM.

A little golden compensation would be good for Bronze working for Burial. IIRC, BW is more expensive.

	05-08-2003 11:38									#17
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Any other thoughts? I'll send the following to CoD if there aren't any objections...

Big Hairy King, Executive Transvestite, or whatever you call yourself Frustrated Poet of Izzardia:

We would indeed like to trade your art of burying things for our art of making shiny things out of bronze. You see, we have several dead parrots nailed to their perches since we’ve nothing better to do with them…

However, we do feel that bronze working is more valuable than ceremonial burial. If we were to sell bronze working to Izzardia, we would expect ten gold coins in addition to ceremonial burial.

Please contact us soon,

~Octavian the Tenth
Despot Prime Minister of the Castle of Guy de Loimbard

	05-08-2003 12:05									#18
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Good note .

	07-10-2003 23:00									#19
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From Arrian:

quote: Sir Ralph, Hey, just checking in regarding our possible tech trade. IIRC, you guys are almost done with IW. We are almost done with writing (5 turns). We have also met team Monkey. They too are researching IW, unfortunately. Here are my thoughts: Python and Izzardia could trade IW for Writing, straight-up. We can pursue a different trade Monkey (money for pottery, IIRC). It is not our intention to try and keep you and this other civ from contacting one another. Eventually, your explorers will meet up (though I honestly don't know how long that will take - it all depends on how you move). If you would like contact sooner rather than later, we're up for a trade of contact for 25 gold once we have writing. I'm not trying to gouge anyone here. Anyway, please let us know what you think of the writing - IW deal. If we can work that out to our mutual satisfaction, I was hoping to get our teams to combine on a republic beeline (one of us takes philo, the other takes CoL. Monkey could do a number of things, but I think that MapMaking at is a good choice). Let me know what you think of that, too. -Arrian

My quick response

quote: Sounds very well to us. We will have Iron Working next turn and will have to discuss what we will do till your completion of Writing. Later, a Republic beeline sounds good. As for Monkey, we'll see if we meet within the next turns. If we didn't meet yet when you have Writing, we can talk about a purchase of the contact. About Monkeys research I'm unsure. Map Making sounds good, but Literature is also not a bad advance to have. But there seems to be no scientistic civ among us, to have cheap libraries, right? SR

	07-10-2003 23:52									#20
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Arrians response:

quote: I had considered Literature as well. Both have their advantages. I'll ask Monkey what they think. So there is a 4-turn gap between your completion of IW and our completion of Writing. There are two options, then: 1) you could run 100% tax for 4 turns, or 2) you could research something relatively cheap (the wheel?) at maximum. It's up to you, though if you do #2, I don't think we will be able to synchronize our research of philosophy & code of laws (then again, is that really necessary?). Should we do it at 40-turn pace? I'm not sure either of our civs is producing enough commerce to do it in much less time, even at 80-90% science. Plus, having big treasuries when we switch to republic will be a good thing. Plus, during those 40 turns, hopefully Monkey can research 2 techs, or get most of the way there, if they go all-out. Then we can do a big swap, and pick one of us to research republic while the others fill in the blanks. Anyway, shall we consider Writing-for-IW a done deal? If so, great, and 5 turns from now, we will send Writing "accepted" to you. I'll let you know what Monkey has to say about MM/Lit. -Arrian

	08-10-2003 00:15									#21
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And one more PM:

quote: Sir Ralph, I've been thinking about the research situation some more, and a couple of problems occurred to me: 1) Are we going to agree not to resell each other's techs? If so, will such a no trade clause have a time limitation? Also, Monkey does not have writing, and has nothing to trade to us to get it. Therefore they cannot research Literature, unless we give them Writing. If Python and CoD research CoL & Philo, and Monkey does MM, the "fair" trade would be MM for Writing from CoD and MM to Python for CoL or Philo (whichever you guys research), with adjustment here or there for differences in research cost, if necessary. That still leaves them 1 big tech behind. The last thing I want to do is make them feel left out, because then they might want to deal themselves back in with some pointy sticks, if you take my meaning. Plus, they are a better research partner if they're caught up. But I don't want to throw away a tech lead either. What do you think? Any suggestions? -Arrian

	08-10-2003 00:31									#22
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And back to CoD:

quote: Hmmm, does Monkey have anything at all to trade or give? What have they been doing with their gold so far? About a possible no trade agreement: As long as it's only us three trading, things can be kept simple, I think. I mean, as long as there is no obscure fourth party, with who Monkey trades without you or us knowing, because this would put them in an unfair advantage. I think you can check this better than us, with your fast scouts. I also would like to make sure, that everyone contributes to the research, there should be bo party only buying cheap techs and meanwhile hording money. As long as this works in full transparency, I see no need in no trade agreements. Writing is a quite expensive technology for this early stage, I'm not sure if you want to give it away for free. It might make sense, though. It's your advance, decide yourselves. What concerns future research, so we could go for The Wheel (right away) and Philosophy (4+6), you for Code of Laws (10). Should make us finish about the same time. At this time, one of us starts Republic (probably at full speed, I think it should take 20, at most 25 turns), while the other two fill up the gaps in the earlier stages of the tech tree. So far that's my personal view of things. But there's not much activity in our forum, anyway. SR

	08-10-2003 02:42									#23
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A lot of diplomatic traffic today:

quote: Ok, I'm fine with keeping things simple too. So you shall receive writing in 5 turns, please send IW back. It's a pleasure doing business with you. Monkey has promised us there is no 4th civ. I choose to believe them. And no, Monkey doesn't have anything to trade. Unfortunately, they have the same starting techs as you guys, and have researched the same as you (bronze -> iron). Since we've traded, they're left with nothing to trade. I like the Wheel + Philo for CoL idea. I'll present that to the team. I suspect they will like it too. You think we should research Philo & CoL at full speed, then? -Arrian

quote: Ok, so be it then. We have the turn right now, so Iron Working is here. We're going for Wheel with now, followed by Philosophy. You finish Writing (we trade) and go for Code of Laws then. Please don't go 96 with your scout next turn, you would block our settler. Go either 99 or 66; your scout would be welcome on our territory this turn. Apropos settler, we saw your new city this turn. We have planned to settle pretty close to this point. City sites we aim for are (relative to the City of Snakes) CoS-777, Cos-998 and CoS-777744. These cities would make up our southern border. You have probably seen that we have a lot of rough terrain like tundra, hills and mountains up there and need to ICS and RCP a lot in order to get something useful out of it. I hope that is ok with you. SR

	08-10-2003 19:02									#24
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Arrians response

quote: Oh, I was going to mention CoS, sorry. That's as far up the river as we plan to go. We are considering a city 8, 8, 7 of Izzardia in the future (not a high priority site right now). Without looking at a map, I don't know if that conflicts with your plans. Let me know if that's an issue, and we can talk it out. We're using RCP too, but a wider RCP (ring at 4). You know me and my wide city spacing I just can't help it. But with your rougher terrain, I probably would break down and use a 3-ring. I will put your request re: our scout in our forum (in several spots) to make sure we don't block you.

	13-10-2003 05:20									#25
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From Arrian, yesterday by PM:

quote: Hey, I just wanted to let you guys know that we appear to be making progress with the Monkeys. I guess that shipment of bananas we sent pleased them Right now, we're trying to work out a way of getting them Writing, and they seem to be very open to researching either Literature or MM once they have it*. The potential problem is that they're talking about doing it at 40-turn pace. That might just put them behind again. We'll see how things develop. Also, with regard to the border city issue, in recognition of your greater need for arable land, I think we're ok with tossing our plans for a city 887 from Izz. However, I'd like to put a city 4441 of CoS (coastal, "9" from plains wheat). It's a little close to your western border town, but terribly so. I hope that wouldn't be problematic. I'll keep you posted on our negotiations with the Monkeys. -Arrian * - Does Python have a strong preference between the two options? I think I'm leaning toward Literature right now.

	14-10-2003 02:03									#26
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To Arrian:

quote: Shortly, because I don't have much time: Thanks for your understanding in regard of our preferred border. We greatly appreciate it are sure, that our cooperation will be fruitful. What concerns Monkeys desire to research with a 40 turn pace: This will surely set them back. They can not expect to get all techs 2 civs researched in 40 turns at full pace and give only one tech they researched with one beaker per turn. Somebody should clarify that. They can either participate at full speed and get all techs, or they save money and will have to buy the rest and pay the beakers with gold, with just a little discount. What concerns the Literature vs. Map Making question: Map Making is more expensive and suits better for a 40 turn research, but in our situation I think Literature is more useful. Just my personal opinion. SR

	14-10-2003 02:51									#27
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Response from Arrian

quote: SR, We've had further communication with the Monkeys. They are pushing the bounds of our generousity, IMO. We still have some things to work out. Hopefully this can be done in the next 2-3 turns (they finish IW in 3, we finish writing in 2). However, they say they are going to research faster than 40-turn pace, and are open to either MM or Lit. Are we agreed, then, that we should push for Lit?

My answer:

quote: Sure, go ahead!

	15-10-2003 21:42									#28
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From CoD, today by PM

quote: I've a question: Is trading screenshots of one's map (to circumvent the Mapmaking requirement for in-game map trades) considered ok, or a no-no in these MP democracy games. To give my question some context, here is the current status of our negotiations with Monkey: 1) They want us to give them writing in exchange for the right to pop a hut they've left alone down by their start spot. This is of course a gamble on our part, since we could easily get nothing/conscriptwarrior/"maps" from the hut instead of a juicy tech, gold, or a settler. 2) They originally assumed that what we meant by a "3 team tech partnership" was that the teams coordinated research and just shared everything discovered, regardless of research costs. They seem to understand now that's not quite what we had in mind. I want a tech alliance, yeah, but I want each team to at least come close to contributing an equal share. The good news is they are ok with that now. 3) I assumed that our scout would be allowed down there to go pop the hut, and any map knowledge gained by said scout on the way in/out of the area would be considered part of the price of Writing. 4) I assumed wrong. They are touchy about us gaining knowledge of their map (and went so far as to suggest that we build a galley, bring the scout down that way, unload, pop hut, and get back on the boat, so as not to discover too much). Further, it appears they think that if we get a tech from the hut we are going to just give it to Monkey and Python (we're still discussing what we would do if it's a tech). 5) They have, however, mentioned the idea of all of us trading maps. Presumably us gaining knowledge of their lands would be ok if they got to see everything else (so much for any advantage inherent in the Expansionist trait). Then our scout could go pop this hut (which, again, may not give us diddly squat). The rest of my team is taking this a bit better than I am. We've no official policy as yet, but it looks like we're leaning toward trying to accomodate Monkey's concerns. However, we cannot work a map trade in-game until MM is discovered. Hence my question. Do you think I should raise this in the general forum? -Arrian p.s. Monkey's ambassador to CoD is Hot_Enamel. Just to give some context.

My quick answer:

quote: Quick answer (I'm hurrying to our "evening meeting", read: drinking tour through Bamberg) - Techs you get from huts are not to be shared for free. They are part of one of your traits, which turns useless after the next age is reached. If you share these techs, you should ask for a compensation in gold. - I find Monkeys refusal to share their maps pretty lame. - My personal opinion is, that screenshots and minimaps are not to be shared. Map trading only in-game. But that's just me, others may have another opinion. So yes, you should ask this in the public forum, without naming teams. SR

	20-10-2003 19:36									#29
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From Arrian, by PM

quote: SR, We've struck a deal with Monkey. They finally agreed to allow our scout through, and in return I will be sending them writing this turn (the one that's sitting in my email inbox at home right now). They've agree to research Literature next. FP's turn report for last turn indicates that we're researching CoL and it is due in 19 (now 18) turns. Hopefully city growth/new cities will drop that a bit. How are you doing with the Wheel? We've agreed to allow the Monkeys to explore northward (since they allowed us to go south). They want to meet you guys, obviously. That might take a little while, though. Let me know if you would rather just do a quick trade for contact with us. -Arrian

My response

quote: Ah, good. We'll have The Wheel in about 4 turns. We would need Writing then in order to switch to Philosophy without losing a turn. There's no need to speed up contact to Monkey. We will eventually meet, and since neither of us has a technology which the other hasn't, nobody would benefit from an earlier contact. SR

By the way, is anyone paying attention to this thread?

	21-10-2003 03:59									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph By the way, is anyone paying attention to this thread?