07-01-2004 12:37									#91
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Explaining our worker team to Monkey: I'd tell them we're doing it as a favor to CoD. We're using our industrious trait to build the road faster for them, and they plan to compensate us in the future.

It's a long shot, but that's the only thing I think Monkey would buy...

	07-01-2004 22:05									#92
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From Arrian:

quote: Two things: first, did you get my last PM (re: map making, and other assorted rambling)? Second, would Python benifit much from another luxury (silks)? Enough to perhaps road another silk tile so we can both have silks? It would delay the war road, I know. But if Python derives enough benifit from it, it could be worth the delay. It's your call... just know that if you do want to road another silk tile, we'll provide silks free of charge, let's say for 20 turns. By the way, even though it was on the logical path for the war road, thank you for roading the silk tile you just did. The timing is perfect for our entry into republic (expected next turn, I'm told). In closing, some Monkey troop info: veteran numidian 22211 of your road team. Regular warrior 11112 of your road team.

	07-01-2004 23:00									#93
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To Arrian:

quote: yes, I received both PMs, just didn't have time to respond so far. You shouldn't lie about what you found. Say you got Map Making and promise not to trade it to us. We may give them Currency as compensation, that still should be a good deal for them. Any other gift for them should be denied with the explanation, that getting some free techs is the advantage one of your traits gives, the effect of which is already waning and will come to naught at the end of the ancient age, while both of their traits remain valid the whole game. We would like to trade World Maps now, to see more of Monkeys territory, to plan the military operations. We know the rest of the continent by land exploring and the only remaining black spots are some distance-2 water tiles along the coast. We have therefor ordered our explorers back home except for Sir Bedevere, who will remain in the south as Monkey watcher. Since we probably can't do it yet, it would be good if you offered a Map trade next turn. Apropos explorers returning: Sir Kay, who got promoted by barbarians, will cross your territory from south to north during the next turns, heading to the closest barracks to get his well deserved upgrade. If you have issues with the tile improvements, say so. When you are planning cities especially in the south, we would like to participate in the discussion, as it affects the future division of the continent between us. As we wrote you earlier, after the war the continent shall be shared fairly, taking also in account land mass, land quality, resources and luxuries. I don't know it yet, but I hope Monkey has a unique luxury down there, so that a stable one-for-one trade for the silks is possible. If not, it would be fair if we got at least free access to the insane amount of silks you have in the jungle. May be there's room for a colony city for us, may be on that small peninsula. I would leave this discussion for the time after the map trade. It doesn't matter who builds and improves it, but Monty Python needs by all means a city with barracks down there the same turn the war starts. If you would found it, we could found a city for you too, for instance at the western coast, and when the war starts, we just switch cities. You could prebuild barracks with one shield and the turn before the switch cash-rush the barracks (we can't cash-rush yet). We'll compensate the amount of money needed. We don't have much need for silks right now, as we still are under despotism and will stay so until our divisions get their ticket south. When they are on the road, we can afford the anarchy. As soon as we get out of anarchy, we are going to need some extra happiness. By then, the silks will be appreciated. We are going to need horses in about 10 turns for a while (~ 6..8 turns), so it would be great if you prepared to get iron during the same period. The access should end by you declaring war on us and immediately offering peace accepted, which we will accept too. So Monkey doesn't see it. That's much cheaper than pillaging/rebuilding roads. We see the NM in the south, our Sir Bedevere lingers there. The position of the Warrior (probably Cheetah) is also as expected. So far all goes as planned.

	08-01-2004 03:07									#94
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Arrians answer:

quote: Monkey hasn't asked about the hut yet, so I've told them nothing so far. When they do, I'll follow the course of action we're agreed upon. We can double-check to make sure your warrior won't get in the way of any workers of ours, but I don't think it's going to be a problem at all. Regarding the city swap idea, it's funny you bring that up, because Cort Haus reminded me to mention that very thing to you. We can build the southern fort town and rush a barracks for you (yeah, we will need gold from you for that, because we will need ours for unit upgrades and perhaps a galley rushing... we hope to put 2 galleys in the water to help prevent Monkey escape). If you can build us a city around the same time, I think it's a good idea. I think we would prefer a city on the forest tile near the cow to the west of Swindon. Where exactly do you want the southern fort town? Regarding luxuries: Monkey has ivory, so a silk-ivory trade will be possible in the future. I will try and work in orders for our southern worker stack to connect another silks tile in the not-to-distant furture, so that around the time you guys become a republic, we can provide silks. Iron for Horses in ~10 turns? Sounds pretty good to me. We're building chariots right now, while researching (1 scientist until we're in republic) HBR. We can probably get that, upgrade our chariots, and give you horses in about 10 turns. I'll double check that, though. Oh, and lastly, maps: we meant to send you our WM this turn, but forgot. Sorry. We will send it next turn. Once you see what we can see, we can properly discuss invasion plans and division of the continent.

	10-01-2004 02:20									#95
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From Arrian:

quote: Ok, CoD has the turn, although we won't be playing it until tonight, when I get home and have a look at the save. I have a question regarding the timing of building the southern fort town & starting the war: What turn do you want the southern city built on, and furthermore exactly where do you want it? My assumption is we grab any spot we can find on the hills south of the jungle (I expect Monkey might attempt to block the settler team), but I'm not sure if you have a particular tile in mind. I was looking at a screenshot, and it looks like total transit time for a settler from Izzardia to get to those southern hills is ~7 turns, give or take a turn. If we run Izz the way I'm thinking of running it right now, we will be putting out settlers on T85 and T91 (3 and 9 turns from now). The one from T85 seems a bit too soon, since it would reach the hills around T92 (or is that not too soon? That's around the time you want horses from us). The second one would get down there around T98... 16 turns from now. Is that too late? It may not sound like this needs to be decided *right now*, but it would help me to configure Izzardia properly if I knew the best turn to build that particular settler.

Dave?

	10-01-2004 02:25									#96
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My quick answer:

quote: I posted it in our forum, though the answer might not be there till you play the turn. We will discuss it and answer as soon as possible. The road will go farther and farther south and thus speed your settler more and more, so it may be not so urgent rught now. I won't meddle in this discussion, because I will retire soon and switch to lurker mode. When the ancient age ends, at the latest. May be even when the war starts.

	19-01-2004 14:28									#97
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To Arrian, as announced in the turn thread:

quote: a short note (because at work), informing you of 2 things: 1 - We decided the place of the barracks city. Since it probably will be given back to you after the war, we tried to get you a good spot (in pretty Arrianish city spacing, too ). This spot is at Plymouth-1112. It would grant us silks for the time of the war (we might have use for it because we'll finally switch to Republic and might encounter some war weariness. If you agree to this spot, just build a city there and start a barracks at 1 shield, to save rush cash. 2 - We're going to need horses soon for some turns (5-6 will be enough). If you can spare them, please offer them to us unaccepted. We give iron in return. Any turn after 800 BC is fine. To cancel the deal in mutual consent, just declare war and offer peace accepted the same turn. We'll accept too and Monkey won't see anything.

	19-01-2004 18:52									#98
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Arrians answer (actually even 2):

quote: Hmm. We have a settler currently in route to Plymouth 112. Would that serve? We need some more time to build more warriors, but we're done using our horses for now, so we can send them any time. I'll ask they be sent accepted next turn.

quote: I figured you guys would want the fort town further south (Plymouth 111112, where our warrior is currently fortified, for instance).

	22-01-2004 16:34									#99
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Have we got any plans as to decide who declares war on Monkey first?
Also if and when to we goto the public forums about this and what, if any infomation should we divulge?

I just think we decide these things now we appear committed.

	23-01-2004 03:57									#100
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We should leak our "lumberjack victory" picture soon. I think the best time would be a couple turns before we reveal the attack, to give them lots of time to panic.

It would be nice if someone else could host it, since I am supposed to be the ambassador.

	23-01-2004 15:26									#101
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To Arrian

quote: Plymouth-112 is fine. Found it when you're ready and start a barracks there. As for the city we found in return, just say where you want it, but keep in mind, that Monkey is watching, because they play between us and will notice it. May be we should found a city for you only after the war started (which is like 10-15 turns from now, you know). What will we do btw, when we give the barracks city back to you? Will you found another city for us then, possibly in the south?

	23-01-2004 18:16									#102
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quote: We should leak our "lumberjack victory" picture soon.

Well seeing as one of the more 'renowned' monkey haters
or anti-simiatist (not anti-semitist) I do it.
Stupid monkeys....

	26-01-2004 13:25									#103
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2 messages from Arrian (Friday already) ...

quote: What do you think of us trying to get you a city at Plymouth 111112 (where our warrior currently is) or even 1111122? It seems like a much better invasion drop-off point (though possibly less surprise). We will have a new settler in 4 turns that could go right down there via the road and build it. If you prefer the P112 site, that's ok. It was to be our advance naval base, but Plymouth will serve that purpose if need be. I agree that the city swap shouldn't happen until we're ready to launch the war, because Monkey will notice. 10-15 turns sounds about right. I was planning on T100 or thereabouts. As for a location at which to build a city for us, that depends. If you agree with my idea to try and get a city in at P111112 or around there, then I'd say the forest tile next to the cow, west of Swindon. If you don't want us to try for P111112, then I will come up with a different location, because our next settler will go west of Swindon. When you give us the southern fort town back to us, we can reciprocate by building you guys a city. You will probably need at least some assistance in repopulating the south anyway, right? When do you want horses? We can send 'em any time, since we're done with them for now. FYI - on the diplomatic front, I've been stalling Monkey as best I can on the republic. They are trying to get us to *give* it to them, promising to make up the beaker cost later. But our intention is to drag out the negotiations and then give it to them right before we strike.

quote: Just noticed that Cort Haus played the turn and sent you horses accepted. So nevermind that bit.

... and my response (today):

quote: sorry for not responding earlier, but I'm having a break from playing Civ3 in general and don't hang out much on Apolyton, so I noticed your messages only today. A city farther in the south would certainly be better, but it can't be founded right now, because it would attract Monkeys attention in a rather unpleasant way. You could call that almost a declaration of war. We don't want such troubles right now and I'm sure neither do you. Nevertheless I wouldn't drop that idea yet. If it will be possible to found that city later, when the troops already are approaching, that would be ideal. But we should rethink the city shuffle (who gifts whom what) then, because such a location would be dangerously close to what we would claim for ourselves in case of success. So we can swap cities at begin of the war, but what will be given back or refounded elsewhere is yet to be discussed. The ideal time to gift Republic to Monkey would be one turn before they spot our troops. We could then make sure they are an anarchy before we declare war. So it would be good if you could delay the negotiations a bit. How's their success with Map Making anyway? Any news? Our exchange of information with Monkey is rather scarce. We got horses, thanks. We won't build massive mobile forces, though, only a small squadron to mop up if necessary. Tell us when you want iron ASAP, because we want to get rid of it for a few turns to build warriors too, now that we have upgrade money.

	26-01-2004 20:55									#104
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From Arrian:

quote: Ok, we will revisist the city swap thing later on. We will found the city at plymouth 112, and for now, plan on sending our next settler to the southern hill site (it won't get there until we're about ready to start fighting anyway... we can discuss exact timing as the turns roll on. Monkey has MM by now, I believe. They wanted to do a map trade. I haven't checked our private forum yet (I was away all weekend), but the last I heard we sent Monkey our Territory Map unaccepted, hoping to do a territory map swap (so as not to give up your map to them, unless you want to do a trade w/them). I will let you know about iron. Should I cc the message to others on your team, in case you aren't around on Apolyton?

	26-01-2004 21:14									#105
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Back to Arrian:

quote: I'm still often enough on Apolyton, so I don't think this will be necessary. After my demise as player (defined as the turn after we get out of Anarchy, that will be around T100) just send your messages to my successor (yet to be defined). BtW, Monkey asking to trade World Maps doesn't mean they have MM, if you have it. Please check if you are still able to offer it to them, just to be sure. If not, it's time for us to ask them for a trade.

	27-01-2004 20:40									#106
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From Arrian:

quote: We have founded a city 112 of Plymouth ("Silkfest") this past turn - Turn90. Also, I don't know if you've seen it, but there is a Monkey settler team down by the hills where our warriors are posted (Numidian+settler). I think they are now due south of the game tile. When exactly do you want Silkfest turned over to you? I'm trying to time our builds/upgrades exactly so that Monkey has as little warning as possible (if they see a big power spike from CoD, they're gonna be suspicious). So here are my current thoughts: By T94, we will have built the warriors we want to build for now and can accept iron from you so you can build some more warriors. That same turn, I intend to have most of our warriors, plus any other troops available, move to Swindon12, onto the war road. On T95 they should be at Corinth3. On T96 they arrive at Silkfest, which rushes its barracks (34*4 = 136g). T97, we upgrade the warriors. T98, we march 1 and gift the city to Python. Our 2nd galley also completes T98, and moves south. T99, our main stack moves 2. Hopefully, your troops reach Silkfest that turn, and possibly upgrade if they have movement left. Our galleys muster next to our main stack on the coast. T100, we load 4 swordsmen onto the galleys, and they sail off to the south, aiming to make a landing near Primate Central (which currently shows a vet Numidian as garrison, new this turn, since last turn it was a warrior. Our southern scout is on his way home, and is currently near PC). The rest of the stack proceeds southwards. Python hopefully marches their forces out of Silkfest. Since we will have use of the barracks for 2 turns until you get it, clearly we will cover 8g of the 136 required to rush it on T96, meaning we would like 128g from you guys on T96. How does that look to you? p.s. if you guys do a map trade with Monkey, please don't tell them you can already see most of their land because you traded world maps with us. Let them think you did a territory map trade, like we're doing with them next turn.

	28-01-2004 05:04									#107
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Sent to Team Monkey:

quote: Greeting apes, gorillas, and chimpanzees! The philosophers over at Monthy Python notice you have discovered how to draw maps. We are happy to trade for this technology, would you like to make an offer? My team has also agreed to exchange world maps if you like. -DaveMcW Monty Python Ambassador

Can you refresh my memory? What techs do we have that we could trade them?

	28-01-2004 11:10									#108
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Currency, with a little compensation or even without.

	28-01-2004 13:46									#109
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To Arrian:

quote: Shortly (at work again): We have seen the settler. Doesn't disturb us much, as the city they're going to build will be completely unproductive and easy meat when it comes to battle. We would like to get Silkfest as late as possible for the reasons you mentioned. What concerns the time, it sounds fine to me, although we aren't ready building our forces yet. We're still about 5 swordsmen short of our needs, but we have a city that can build one turn warriors, so it won't take long to catch up after we got rid of the iron. Dave is trying to trade MM and maps with Monkey right now. As for combat plans and war tactics, these things should be discussed with my successor. Unfortunately, he isn't yet appointed. I will start a thread today. The detailed timing of the invasion is crucial for a quick success. To make sure no information is lost, it should include a player who is actively involved by this time.

	28-01-2004 18:50									#110
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Back from Arrian:

quote: Sounds good. If you need more time to build your troops (and move them down the road) so that our forces are synchronized better, that's ok. How long do you guys intend to keep Silkfest, by the way? If it's not long, there is no particular need for a city swap. If it's to be for the duration of the war, then we would like you to build us a city (probably west of Ciao). As your successor to get in touch with me as soon as possible about timing (the iron trade, the gold for the barracks in Silkfest, the turnover of Silkfest, etc). Like you said, it's crucial that we get the timing just right.

	30-01-2004 17:54									#111
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From Arrian. I will answer later today.

quote: The monkey settler team has continued northward. We figure they are headed for the last unclaimed silks. We completed a settler this turn, which was slated for a city southwest of Ciao, but now we are leaning towards sending it south, and trying for a town on the hills southwest of Silkfest. If Monkey thinks it's ok to build a city near Corinth, then I'd say we're justified in building one relatively close to Screecher Monkey. Frankly, if Monkey gets mad and attacks CoD, so be it. Happiness boost for CoD, and Monkey gets to try and take out multiple spearmen fortified on a hill, possibly with walls if CoD feels like rushing them. If they do not attack, I figure that city will be the barracks town we give to you, and CoD will hang on to Silkfest. We will be sending a worker team down south in the next couple of turns to pick up the war road where you left off. Re: timing. If our current builds are left as they are, we will have the number of vet warriors I want on T95 (4 turns from now). So we can accept iron on T96. Is that too late? Let me know if you guys really need to get rid of that iron to build warriors. RE: cancelling our iron/horses trades... I'd rather not do it via declaring war if possible. Can't we just cut a road between us and rebuild it? I'm a little wary of using war to do it for two reasons: 1) the possibility that war/peace/war/peace in the PTWDG might have helped screw up the game (bugs); 2) the feeling some have that using war between allies to cancel deals could be an exploit. I don't personally see it that way, but if we can do this by cutting and rebuilding 1 piece of road, let's do that, ok? I'm thinking of CoS4... don't have a map in front of me. Finally, with regard to us trading republic to Monkey... we've made a counteroffer to them, which basically says we're not gonna give them republic on credit (though we do allow for *some* future research to be taken into consideration), so they need to pay us in cash. We asked for a hefty (but actually more than fair, considering the beaker cost of republic) sum. If they actually pay it, or something close to it, we will do the trade... though we're kinda hoping they don't have nearly that much money lying around. If they won't pay us several hundreds of gold, I think we're just going to not give them republic. The timing of trying to attack when they are in anarchy is very difficult. And once they're out of anarchy, we have a foe that can cashrush things, and is most likely in their GA. So unless we are able to drain their treasury first, allowing us to do another mass upgrade, I think we'll just leave them in despotism.

	31-01-2004 00:23									#112
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

From Monkey, it looks like CoD has given them lots to think about!

quote: Dave We will get back to you as soon as possible. We definately want some kind of trade and currently are putting our thinking caps on in the private forum. Thanks for getting ahold of us! Steve (conmcb25) Monkey Ambassador

	02-02-2004 14:45									#113
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To Arrian:

quote: hope you had a nice trip (assuming your time off was one). And congratulations to the big victory of the Patriots in the Super Bowl, if you like football (I don't really, not even what you call "soccer" ). That Monkey Settler is a God's gift. Let them found their city where ever they want. They produce an excellent casus belli just right in time. If Monkey attacks the city you are going to build in the south, it's the best thing that can happen. Since they'll need some time to get their force in place, I even doubt they can take it before we arrive. As soon as the diplomatic trouble begins, our army gets the ticket south. T96 for getting rid of iron is surely late, but not too late. We'd be able to build a second wave very shortly after the first, if we keep it some time. By the way, we need Horstback Riding, and IIRC Warrior Code too, to upgrade our fastmovers. Since we don't have a tech to trade, tell your price for these techs in gold. It should be total 8 points, both are cheap. Re: cancelling the trade... There are already multiple connections and it won't suffice to pillage one tile, except if it's the iron tile itself, which is on a mountain. If you really don't want to cancel it through war, we'd have to pillage that mountain. We can do it, of course, but keep in mind we can't do it too often, that would distract too many worker force even if we're industrious. Regarding Republic: Do whatever you want, we're fine with either situation.

	02-02-2004 18:09									#114
	Put an end to popups!

From Cort Haus

quote: Arrian is away for a couple of days, so I'm sending you this news. Team Latino (Rome) has landed on the desert peninsula 44441 of CoS. Bit of a spanner in the works, but hopefully our teams can handle it. They are very powerful, but are missing Lit and Republic techs. I haven't counted beakers yet to see if they have Poly' or Construction. I sent a message to their FM (MZ) saying "hello" and virtually nothing else. I didn't mention Python, Monkey, or the name 'Comedia'. My initial thought are that we mustn't let them ally with Monkey to keep our alliance in check. Hopefully LL are too busy for that, but if Monkey get Republic from us they'll have a strong card to trade.

EDIT: My quick response:

quote: Awwww, sh_t! Let's think how to handle it. How much has landed? We should try our best to distract them to the north, so they meet Monkey as late as possible.

EDIT2: ... and back from Cort Haus

quote: One warrior has landed. We have an archer down the south-west tip, who can come north on the coast and hopefully see LL's galley if it comes that way. I moved a bunch of units toward it, hopefully we can send it east first to waste its time. Hopefully that's a suicide galley, so they can't bring armies over. My guess is that they're on their own island, so invested heavily in galleys to meet everyone. We know they met the other lot because one of the other teams posted a LL Diplo thread by accident in the gen forum. We may have to buy their non-intervention in some way.

	03-02-2004 11:12									#115
	Full PM-box? Change here!

From Arrian:

quote: Thanks, I did have a nice trip. I went skiing. I'm not much of a football fan either, but I was glad the Pats won. So, we're agreed that you will send iron on T96 then? With regard to WC & HBR, CoD is ok with either gold or a credit for future research. If gold, the two techs are worth 192 beakers, so 192gold would be the price in cash. Whichever is best for you guys, though I'd think you would want your gold now for upgrades and whatnot, so perhaps the future credit is the way to go? The arrival of LL has me worried. They haven't met Monkey yet, but it's only a matter of time. We don't yet know which way (north or south) their galley went after dropping off their warrior. I'm pondering sending Master Zen a note that, in the spirit of friendship suggests they sail north and meet our friends, the Pythons.

	04-02-2004 04:34									#116
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From Arrian:

quote: When do you plan on sending your army south? Time is getting tight. We will be most likely build the fort city 1112 of Silkfest on Turn97, which could spark war any time after that. I'd like to build the city 11111 of SF(where the Monkey road team is now), but I'm not sure Monkey won't block the tile, and also it would take longer for CoD's workers to connect a city built there to our road net. If we build the fort town at SF1112, I believe our workers can have it connected on T101. How does receiving the town w/barracks on T102 (we gift it at the end of our T101) sound? Also, if you would like, there is enough time to rush walls. Depending on what you want, we either need 148 gold on T100 or we need 36 gold on T98 and 156 gold on T100. I think we're going to need to do the declaration of war to cut our trade deals. I forgot about the horse trade, and considering that stopping our deals would mean cutting roads on a mountain (your iron) and a hill (our horses), it's just not worth it. The question is when to do it... We need horses back before we can upgrade our remaining chariots (we only upgraded 2 horsemen before giving you horses). How many turns do you want to be ironless? That could be problematic. I now wish we had upgraded all the horses at once, but I was concerned about money (deeming the swords more important) and a powergraph jump.

	04-02-2004 05:11									#117
	Inflate your Upload Space

Back to Arrian:

quote: shortly (it's getting late here): - We can send our forces down any time you wish, although not complete, but significantly strong. At the moment, we still need some of them as happiness guard. We had planned to go Anarchy as soon as the army leaves, but we can't afford it yet since we still need the production for at least three more turns. - We need Warrior code and Horseback Riding before you get the horses back, or else we can't upgrade our chariots. Since they can't be delivered in the same turn, that takes 2 turns. We're fine to pay them in gold (not making a debt), we have enough to afford it. - We can do without giving iron away, just continuing to build swordsmen the "hard way". It'll take longer, though. But you will need the iron for at least one turn. - We bring down workers with the troops to speed road building. No problem. Conclusion: If you want (just say so), we move our slowmovers south from next turn on. We can pile them up, say, somewhere at your southern border. It needs to be a roaded tile, since catapults can't enter jungle otherwise. Please send WC and HBR and tell your price (IIRC you already did)

	04-02-2004 13:11									#118
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From Arrian

quote: I'm glad I got this before I finished playing our turn. I sent you WC accepted. My hopes of building a city south of Silkfest have been dashed. Monkey has a settler team on the hill at SF 1111, and no doubt will build next turn. So I've turned our settler around, and ordered our 3 workers to Corinth6 (silks) to cut down jungle and road. We can trade you silks to help with that happiness trouble once that is complete. If it would help you a lot, we could road first and cut second. It's inefficient, but if it helps the war effort, we can do it. We can keep iron for a few turns. How this: T96 - send us iron. T97 - your army enters our territory T99 - we rush barracks in SF. T100 - we upgrade our warriors in SF. T101 - we move our swordsmen out of SF (moving back north for 1 turn with some, and loading the rest onto 2 galleys to be sent around to take a shot at Primate Central). We gift you Silkfest. T102 - you receive Silkfest and march your army in. We declare war on you, and then send peace accepted. T103 - you accept peace and send us a RoP accepted. Your army marches south. T104 - WAR! FYI - we established an embassy with LL this turn. Their capital is 4444444447 of the western desert peninsula of our continent. That's awfully close! Can you get a galley out of one of your western cities and see if they have a viable galley route to our continent? They have polytheism, by the way. We may try to work out a republic for polytheism + gold trade.

And one more...

quote: Oh, one more thing: LL's galley went south. They will meet Monkey in the not too distant future.

We need to finish the MM deal with Monkey ASAP!

	04-02-2004 13:29									#119
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To Arrian

quote: a short note (at work as always at this time)... - we have seen the settler. If they found on the hill, it will be a tough nut to crack and should be a primary target to avoid them to pile up defenders. - Your schedule sounds to me a bit delayed. Can't we strike faster? I don't have the means to check it now. - We can't send galleys yet, because Monkey is delaying the MM deal. I will send a warning with the next turn, that if the deal isn't initiated the turn after, we will obtain it from you. Hope this helps. We can have a galley up at most 3 turns later, starting from Castle Aaaagh, although this hurts unit production a bit. CA is by far our best city production-wise. A city producing 10 unwasted shields at size 5 under despotism is pretty rare. - What concerns the possible tech trade with LL, go ahead, but keep in mind that all you trade them they can trade (gift?) Monkey. - I will send 192 gold accepted next turn. Please send HBR next turn, so the deal is complete.

	04-02-2004 19:18									#120
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Message from Arrian

quote: I suppose we could move faster. Not much, maybe 1 turn. I'll have a look. I will send you HBR next turn, but Cort Haus reminded me that CoD wanted to apply the cost of WC+HBR+Polytheism to offset the cost of Construction. I suppose it doesn't really matter (if we end up paying you a bunch of gold for Construction, you will just be getting your money back). Undestood about Mapmaking. Plus, I think we need as many swordsmen as we can get, so I'd say let CA produce 1-turn warriors while CoD has the iron. Monkey seems to have a solid number of vet Numidians. I'll get back to you on a revised attack schedule.

... and my response

quote: fine, I won't send the money then and we level the debt with a Polytheism for Construction trade later. But be aware, that this won't be earlier than in some 20 turns. We'd like to continue the one beaker research, as we need our money for other purposes (upgrading, cash-rushing later) and there's no point to switch from a one-beaker research to a full one. Also, since the contact with the others is established (or will be for us soon) and they are roughly at our level, there's no need to hurry ahead. I don't think Monkey has more than 5-6 NMs. I wouldn't be surprised if the 2-3 we saw is all they have. Our (Python) economy is fairly strong (at least that's what F11 says) and we've been having trouble to build 17 swordsmen (15 of which we built the "hard way"), and we knew about our plans for long. Monkey can't upgrade to their NMs, and they have the least population (= production power) on Comedia. I bet their southern cities have at most warriors, if they aren't even undefended.